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Was the Warden just to powerful to exist?


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#26
Willowhugger

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This is very close to what i was trying to get across. I not saying the Warden was unbeatable, or anything like that but based on how their origin went, coupled with the unique circumstances/abilities they only seem to possess in comparison to other heroes thus far, it's not all that much of a stretch to see them as kind of above the rest. Mage Hawke in comparison to Mage warden didn't have any of the same praise when it came to their skill as a mage, rather it seemed limited to what was known between the family, like I think there is a moment where we learn that a mage hawke was a better or quicker study than Bethany was, but that says little in comparison to someone who was trained by the First Enchanter of Ferelden's circle, and was considered their prize pupil. Also while mechanics aren't something that holds up in lore, You can potentially reach a higher level over all than a lot of the named NPC's in origins like Irving or Jowan, Hawke doesn't reach those levels in my opinion. The one unique thing about hawke was his mage overkills in some boss battles, but because of the trailer one wonders if they had more to do with intended blood magic or his actual ability.

It's a difference in genres, really.

Hawke gets a lot of flack because no matter what he does, it ends up in failure.

 

The Warden, by contrast, poops lyrium.

 

It's kind of unfair really.


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#27
animedreamer

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I crushed her solo. :P

 

as did i but i admit i cheated a bit as i had a mod for the expanded Shapeshifter Specialization in which i had High Dragon Form by that point and lured her into the room where Anora was being held and took her out solo, shot a fireball back to the main hall from the room and lured groups of threes to their death in the room.



#28
Willowhugger

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but not all his companions had the same ability.. 

 

The Warden on several occasions gained bonus stat points, and skill points, learned additional skills in Soldiers Peak that his Fellow Wardens did not get, and gained knowledge of specializations that lore wise would have to be passed on from them to others or not at all.

 

The Warden's gains are impressive but I still wouldn't want him fighting any of his team.

 

I'm also fairly sure Hawke could kill my Warden.

My Warden could kill Hawke too but there's little difference in their overall abilities.

 

The idea there is comes from fan perception, which is flat out not true.

 

The Warden and Hawke are not invincible demigods They're more like just very very impressive people. I imagine Irving vs. MageHawke or Warden would be an even battle.



#29
Ninjasplaycardgames2

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I think that, from a story perspective, the Warden, though having some semblance of above natural combat ability, is still as susceptible to being killed as anyone else. I think the Warden just has a case of Leon S. Kennedy, wherein the character has an unnatural ability to survive overwhelming odds. 


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#30
AlexiaRevan

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I know this must sound like a odd question, and probably an even odder conclusion for our beloved Warden's from Dragon Age Origins, but hear me out. Perhaps in game wise, as another explanation besides external reasons why the Warden can't or doesn't resurface in these continued universes is because they are just to powerful in relation to the people in the rest of the world. Crazy right? Well lets look at it from a in game perspective for a moment.

 

In Dragon Age Origins Warden if obviously the main protagonist so let's examine exactly what the Warden can potentially do on a personal level. To do this we have to look at all 3 classes, their abilities and specializations. 

 

Mage Warden, probably the best example of just how powerful the Warden could be is right here. It is no secret that the Mage was one of the best things right out the gate in Origins, high damage, versatility, fully customizable to handle various roles within the party, from Damager, to Healer, to Controller, to Tank, the Mage could do almost every job. From a in game perspective Mages are feared, and in this case its probably justifiable, The Mage Warden is praised by Irving as his prized pupil, who even finishes their Harrowing in record time according to Cullen, Jowan during the Origin also praised you as a Great Mage as being smart and deducing you could probably avoid the Templars had you the desire to run away from the tower despite you being his junior, You are a badass right from the start, and depending on your choices in the origin, you can show yourself to be a no compromising straight laced staunch upholder of Law and Order keep true to the Circle, or a Loosey Goosey willing to bend or outright break the Rules the end result is the same regardless, you become a Warden. Let's take a look at some of the examples as a Mage that make you particularly noteworthy.

 

During Nature of the Beast you can happen upon the Arcane Warrior specialization, a unique blend of Mage and Warrior that was until that point lost to time, the Mage warden can learn and utilize this specialization at a later point which in turn makes them the last Arcane Warrior in existence that we know of. If you go by the hyperbole and abilities shown in game the Arcane Warrior is indeed a very very powerful specialization that could easily make it seem the Warden themselves are Superhuman, (if that could even apply to someone who can already cast magic). Still this knowledge was given to the Warden so its fair to say that if you teach it to anyone else in your party it's because your Warden taught it to them, on the same note you could choose not to teach any of them and that makes the conclusion of the Warden being overpowered seem that much more likely.

 

Shape Shifter, Bloodmage, and Spirit Healer are used by other people throughout the lore so their really is no claim to be made about a Warden who specializes in those abilities specifically, but one could argue that if Morrigan and Flemeth themselves are powerful in part because they are Shapeshifters then it might also apply to the Warden (Personally when I got DAO pc i grabbed the enhanced Shapeshifting Mod quickly and never looked back, it corrected the Specializations glaring problem and added more variety.)

 

In Awakening, two more Specializations are added, Keeper and Battlemage, while the former again has been seen partially used in other games, and by its name is likely widely known throughout the Dalish Clans, the later we have not really seen since Awakening, and it is powerful. Draining Aura, Elemental Chaos, Stoic, Hand of Winter, combined with spells and passives like elemental mastery, attunement and fade shield, it's clear to see the Mage Warden would be nearly unstoppable in some cases, also honestly we've seen the scope of most mages in origins and just how powerful a first enchanter or senior mage is, and the Warden surpasses all of them by the end of Awakening, not to mention Amgarrak and Witch Hunt..

 

If a Warrior or Rogue the praise and proven ability of the Warden is no less phenomenal, a City Elf Warden can nearly single handedly slaughter the entire palace of the Arl of Denerim including the Arl's son and his two lackey's with nothing more than a borrowed sword and whatever gear they find along the way.

 

A Dwarf Noble can enter their own proving and defeat some of the finest warriors in Orzammar, and survive long enough in the Deep Roads with no armor other than what they find and what weapons they are given to join the Grey Wardens. Your father either calls you the best fighter, or quickest fighter in your house when he speaks of you to Duncan. You can kill Lord Dace's song in a honor proving if you choose to press the issue between the two of you, and Mandar is supposedly a accomplished duelist himself.

 

Dwarf Commoner is pretty much feared as one of Beraht skullcrackers, where in its pretty clear that you are the better fighter between you and Leske, you also go on to win a proving despite fighting veteran warriors, and if you ask Leske about whether or not you took some of the guards down with you upon capture he remarks you did indeed, besting several of them before they finally captured you. You then with the aid of Leske kill everyone in the old Carta including Beraht. 

 

Dalish Elf is probably the most tame in terms of accomplishments but you are recognized as a hunter or at least are capable of hunting according to Duncan's introduction of the Dalish Origin, where he comments your quarry isn't always the local fauna. 

 

This is already going on longer than i intended so in a effort to short it fill in all the accomplishments, levels gained, skills potentially learned, weapons obtained, armor obtained, either of which could be created, and just compare it all to that of which Hawke can do, and judge for yourself. Now with DA:I nearing release, and from what we've seen, while it may not be a competition, i can't help but wonder if they are capable of reaching the levels of sheer levels of epic 

You are not gonna start calling the Warden Revan are ya ? lol 

 

Muh...the only reason that came to mind for me and I though that was odd . But didn't the Warden you meet in Kirkwall insist on that some stuff (like the Qunari attacking Kirkwall) isn't part of their duties ? 

I mean the whole warden system is to fight 1)the blight 2) kill barkspawn 3) destroy arch demon . So maybe the warden is fight these somewhere else and hence why he or she isn't coming ? 



#31
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The Warden's gains are impressive but I still wouldn't want him fighting any of his team.

 

I'm also fairly sure Hawke could kill my Warden.

My Warden could kill Hawke too but there's little difference in their overall abilities.

 

The idea there is comes from fan perception, which is flat out not true.

 

The Warden and Hawke are not invincible demigods They're more like just very very impressive people. I imagine Irving vs. MageHawke or Warden would be an even battle.

 

Nah man. Protagonists are in a class of their own. Hawke is a 'failure' due to a lack of proactivity. But along with the Warden and Inquisitor he ranks just below what I call the Andraste-tier if we're talking power level.

 

Hawke's character flaw is what makes him seem less than the Warden. But if the need and will were there you can bet the he'd measure up. Everyone else, Irving and Gregoir included, wouldn't stand a chance in a one-on-one though.



#32
AlexiaRevan

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 Hawke is a 'failure' due to a lack of proactivity. But along with the Warden and Inquisitor he ranks just below what I call the Andraste-tier if we're talking power level.

Err that is your opinion . Hawk took on the Arishok 1vs1 then on Meredith and let's not forget that giant rock thing in the deep road . 



#33
Willowhugger

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Nah man. Protagonists are in a class of their own. Hawke is a 'failure' due to a lack of proactivity. But along with the Warden and Inquisitor he ranks just below what I call the Andraste-tier if we're talking power level.

 

Hawke's character flaw is what makes him seem less than the Warden. But if the need and will were there you can bet the he'd measure up. Everyone else, Irving and Gregoir included, wouldn't stand a chance in a one-on-one though.

Well I assume we wouldn't have the omnipotent power of "reload from previous save" too.

:-)


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#34
MisterJB

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Truth be told, the Warden can single handedly kill Flemeth, a 300 years old mage, Gaxkang, one of the primordial demons, and Urthemiel, at (at the very least) 2000 years old god that was worshipped by civilization a thousand years ago.

 

So, yeah, by combat feats alone, the Warden is a demigod.



#35
Willowhugger

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Err that is your opinion . Hawk took on the Arishok 1vs1 then on Meredith and let's not forget that giant rock thing in the deep road . 

 

Hawke nipped a Qunari invasion of Thedas in the bud.

However, he's still a failure because being nice to people doesn't work in Kirkwall.


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#36
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I don't know how they will portray the warden if (s)he doesn't have a voice and I mean that literally.  The only thing I see happening, is that we see the warden battling something and dying....or disappearing.  The warden doesn't have a set personality, since the warden is "us" the player.  Hawke on the other hand has three prescribed personality types which the game figures out/measures in auto dialog by the end of Da2.  So we could have a snarky Hawke say something in Inquisition if you chose snarky responses (purple/middle dialog) the most in DA2.

 

I think it is more about the logistics of bringing a past main character to life in Inquisition.  Hawke is easier than the warden, in terms of game development.  I am also not saying, it isn't impossible for the warden to appear in the same extent as Hawke nor am I talking about what I actually prefer or like to happen.



#37
Willowhugger

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Truth be told, the Warden can single handedly kill Flemeth, a 300 years old mage, Gaxkang, one of the primordial demons, and Urthemiel, at (at the very least) 2000 years old god that was worshipped by civilization a thousand years ago.

 

So, yeah, by combat feats alone, the Warden is a demigod.

 

I believe having a party of Companions helping you kill things is the very opposite of single-handedly.


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#38
AlexiaRevan

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Truth be told, the Warden can single handedly kill Flemeth

I always felt the fight with Flemeth was staged . Maybe just me........but that is how it felt . 



#39
MisterJB

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I believe having a party of Companions helping you kill things is the very opposite of single-handedly.

You can kill them solo.


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#40
EmperorSahlertz

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Truth be told, the Warden can single handedly kill Flemeth, a 300 years old mage, Gaxkang, one of the primordial demons, and Urthemiel, at (at the very least) 2000 years old god that was worshipped by civilization a thousand years ago.

 

So, yeah, by combat feats alone, the Warden is a demigod.

Wait... So killing something OLD determines combat capabilities?

 

I'm off to massacre an old folks' home. Hold my beer.



#41
Willowhugger

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You can kill them solo.

 

Lore wise, do you actually think that's intended?



#42
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Err that is your opinion . Hawk took on the Arishok 1vs1 then on Meredith and let's not forget that giant rock thing in the deep road . 

 

Right... like that one time he reported Sister Petrice to Elthina for stirring up tension with the Qunari. Oh wait. There's a longer list waiting to be made, but I won't bother. 



#43
Notshauna

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The Warden is basically what I call mid tier. Basically power level is as such

 

Gods

High Dragons and other beasts of legend 

Andraste and Tevinter's Highest Magisters

Heroes

Darkspawn

Soldiers

Everyone Else



#44
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Lore wise, do you actually think that's intended?

 

I always solo the Qunari invasion. Does this mean my game isn't canon?


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#45
DarkKnightHolmes

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No, the Warden is great but he/she also had help from some of most strongest and most gifted fighters, mages and assassins in Ferelden at the time (And Alistair kinda helped too, I guess).

 

The Warden might be tough but even he/she can't do the impossible as shown in the tower of Ishal.

 

However in a 1 vs 1 fight, my money would always be on the Warden.



#46
Willowhugger

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Right... like that one time he reported Sister Petrice to Elthina for stirring up tension with the Qunari. Oh wait. There's a longer list waiting to be made, but I won't bother. 

 

Hawke defeated what seems to be one of the most powerful mages who ever lived.

He just missed him sneaking away.

Guys got worse luck than Spider Man.



#47
Dabrikishaw

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In a word, no. The Warden-Commander vanished because the Warden-Commander's story was done.



#48
Willowhugger

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I always solo the Qunari invasion. Does this mean my game isn't canon?

 

Eh, point taken.

It just makes Hawke look kind of dumb.

 

:-)



#49
MisterJB

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Wait... So killing something OLD determines combat capabilities?

 

I'm off to massacre an old folks' home. Hold my beer.

In fantasy, yes.

http://tvtropes.org/...StrongerWithAge



#50
Willowhugger

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In a word, no. The Warden-Commander vanished because the Warden-Commander's story was done.

I resent the idea that heroes have to disappear.

 

What is so damned wrong with retirement?

Commander Shepard is off-doing stuff.

 

It's not hard.