Offtopic, but... can we all agree Jack is pretty much useless on Insanity?
Depends on class, build, and squadmates. I find Jack's Pull Field *extremely* useful when used in power combinations with AOE stripping. Faster cooldown than Jacob, and leveled to AOE version before Jacob. Also, if you have Geth Plasma Shotgun, she actually does a lot of damage (shield stripping, finishing-off pulled targets). And oh my, the potty mouth on that girl!
. . .
Just think it is interesting, especially in relation to at least half the classes where you want to level the trademark power and passive about as fast as you can.
Well, let's think about this.
For an Engineer, you want to rank up your passive as a priority, but a rank 1 drone will distract as effectively as a rank 4 drone. I usually get drone to rank two so I can unlock the next power in the tree (I can't remember which). Other than that, I am looking at incinerate and overload, depending on the mission. Rank 2 overload has the stun effect on synthetics, so that is useful. (Does it actually stun Geth? I didn't see it stunning Geth when I last did Haestrom.)
For a Soldier, AR is obviously a priority, but the passive leaves a bit to be desired. Squad Cryo and Inferno Ammo seem to be the priorities since they will do more for you than your passive.
That leaves the Sentinel, Adept and Vanguard who are focused on both their signature power and passive.
I actually find Soldier passive to be quite beneficial. The increased storm speed and duration of HAR really helps you move around.Also, I think soldiers tend to work more in the health pool than other classes, so the health bonus is relatively more valuable (I personally find the health damage animation very annoying).For a Soldier, AR is obviously a priority, but the passive leaves a bit to be desired.
I like how you can multiquote out of order. 
Me finding Jack useless probably has to do with me using my squadmates as pure defense strippers, staggerers (Zaeed, who can stagger/panick entire groups) or detonaters (Thane). Jack does none of that.
And I don't find her ammo power as useful as Jacob's. (which can also panick)
Every squadmate has their role. She isn't a defense stripper, so if that's what you are looking for, Jack isn't for you.
Well, let's think about this.
For an Engineer, you want to rank up your passive as a priority, but a rank 1 drone will distract as effectively as a rank 4 drone. I usually get drone to rank two so I can unlock the next power in the tree (I can't remember which). Other than that, I am looking at incinerate and overload, depending on the mission. Rank 2 overload has the stun effect on synthetics, so that is useful. (Does it actually stun Geth? I didn't see it stunning Geth when I last did Haestrom.)
For a Soldier, AR is obviously a priority, but the passive leaves a bit to be desired. Squad Cryo and Inferno Ammo seem to be the priorities since they will do more for you than your passive.
That leaves the Sentinel, Adept and Vanguard who are focused on both their signature power and passive.
I actually find Soldier passive to be quite beneficial. The increased storm speed and duration of HAR really helps you move around.Also, I think soldiers tend to work more in the health pool than other classes, so the health bonus is relatively more valuable (I personally find the health damage animation very annoying).
Yep I am with a_mouse on the passive. Storm speed bonus is pretty big, and part of why I prefer Commando over Shock Trooper for Soldier. Throw on the speed bonus greaves and you are very fast, even out of Adrenaline Rush. Also agree about the health, especially if you are going Hardened Adrenaline Rush.
The point I was getting at was more about the strength of various characters in the early game via different upgrade paths. I think I could make a case that if I ran trademark power, passive, and then a one or two point power here or there on most of the classes it would be superior to that sort of build on Infiltrator (although some depends on bonus). This is almost certainly true for Sentinel and Vanguard.
I don't disagree that there are different ways to approach the different classes, but I would suggest there might be different build paths that make some of the harder plot missions go more smoothly, although that is still somewhat subject to mission order and squad preference.
One of the nice things about Soldier's ammo order is it miraculously progresses exactly as you need it in a typical run. On Lazarus or certainly by Freedom's Progress you should be able to have at least Disruptor 2, which can stun the mechs. For Professor you only really need Incendiary 1 to stop regen. By this point you would have probably decided whether you are "rushing" to Hardened Adrenaline Rush or putting a few points in Combat Mastery for Storm and Health bonus. Even a 3021021 (bonus whatever, how about AP for pure class) would work out pretty well for Archangel. By Horizon you can get Hardened AR, DA2, IA1, Commando, Whatever Bonus 1 and do pretty respectably. Or you could have stopped at 3 in passive to get Cryo. Either way works really.
On Engineer it is an interesting choice. You can try to get a lot of powers, or you can focus on one or two and let the squad fill in the gaps. I just think it is interesting that perhaps maxing Incineration Blast on Infiltrator fairly quick with 1 pt Cryo Ammo is better than going deep into Cloak or even passive, and how that might seem close to an Engineer. Maybe it is the fact I like the Shuriken more than the Mantis early game (or rather I don't like the ammo capacity of the Mantis). Don't get me wrong, Mantis is great if you can keep ammo in it. Sometimes that is easier said than done (Warlord can get you here).
It partly comes down to bonus of course. I like Neural Shock on the Infiltrator because it fills in a perceived need early game, IMO, which is organic CC. Lets me fool around a little more with other talents before having to get Cryo or Incinerate necessarily. Of course on the flip side of that, the early missions have a fair amount of Blood Pack and Incinerate into Mantis makes more sense for some enemies than even a cloaked shot, depending on how high you can get Incinerate.
Anyway I picked Archangel and Horizon because they are both keyed as tough early game missions. Really has to do with how they stress the team. Archangel is the only mission with all 3 merc factions together and they have different defenses so it helps to be versatile. Horizon is probably supposed to teach you to strip defenses with weapons since it has a lot of enemies with Barrier and there is no AOE direct anti-barrier power available for it outside of one bonus power.
...there is no AOE direct anti-barrier power available for it outside of one bonus power.
Agreed with everything except this. What about Warp for Adepts(Miranda) or Reave for Shepard?
Horizon is probably supposed to teach you to strip defenses with weapons since it has a lot of enemies with Barrier and there is no AOE direct anti-barrier power available for it outside of one bonus power.
Agreed with everything except this. What about Warp for Adepts(Miranda) or Reave for Shepard?
AOE = Area of Effect. So not Warp. And capn actually indirectly does mention Reave with that last sentence. But at that point in the game, you need to have focused your points and passive into it to make it worth it, and some of your other powers may not be as developed as you would like.
For an Engineer, you want to rank up your passive as a priority, but a rank 1 drone will distract as effectively as a rank 4 drone. I usually get drone to rank two so I can unlock the next power in the tree (I can't remember which). Other than that, I am looking at incinerate and overload, depending on the mission. Rank 2 overload has the stun effect on synthetics, so that is useful. (Does it actually stun Geth? I didn't see it stunning Geth when I last did Haestrom.)
As someone who loves the Engineer, that is pretty much the standard way to level the Engineer. Although I would probably leave Drone at rank 1, as unlocking Cryo Blast is a pretty low priority in my opinion, unless you want a more crowd control (CC)-focused build.
If you are going to focus on Overload and Incinerate for stripping defenses, then I would ignore .Cryo Blast and focus on your passive for the cooldown bonuses and the research bonus. You can rely on any combination of Mordin, Jack, and Jacob for CC. If you want some CC for yourself, then Neural Shock is good for a 1-point bonus. You are not going to be facing many synthetics until after Horizon, so having a synthetic/organic health-neutral CC power like Cryo Blast is kind of a waste, making Neural Shock the better choice until post-Horizon. You cannot respec all your points until after Horizon anyway.
Yeah, I hinted at Reave. It is the only area anti-barrier power, but for Horizon you can only have it as a bonus since you can't recruit Samara before that mission.
It feels like I haven't played Engineer in ages, but I agree maybe serious investment in Drone isn't needed by Horizon. Originally when I made my statement about Horizon and trademark plus passive I only mentioned "half" the classes. In reality you could probably lump in Adept as well, or at least make a case that Heavy Singularity, Passive, Warp 3 is pretty decent on Horizon. Engineer and Infiltrator might not be as great leveling up trademark and passive rapidly, but that puts them in the minority of classes.
If you take Horizon in a vacuum, an Engineer build that works out around Level 12 that I was kicking around was Overload 2, Incineration Blast, Drone 2, Cryo Blast 1, Tech Mastery 3, Bonus 1. Like I said, I haven't played Engineer in a while, so Engineer experts can chime in, but that should be pretty decent, even on the recruitment missions. I don't think lack of ranked up Overload is that big a deal considering 2 early game squadmates have Overload. As far as Incinerate v Cryo, Mordin has a big cooldown bonus with Full Cryo, so as Engineer I would make that his priority while I concentrate on Incinerate. I understand you don't have to put the point in Cryo Blast if you have NS, but it is partly an illustrative point, and at Level 12 you will have a free point in the above build anyway so you can unlock it as opposed to banking the point.
Strangely enough, this thread has made me want to go play a Sentinel again, only this time on normal difficulty just so I can goof around as a caster. Also, I can try out some less than optimal squad mates/mission sequences just for the variety. I think I may bring Legion to Haestrom finally. Maybe bring Garrus and Grunt to Mordin's clinic. In fact, I think this will be the all-Grunt, all-the-time playthrough.
Offtopic, but... can we all agree Jack is pretty much useless on Insanity?
I find her useful for the main missions (area strip protection, Shockwave throws everything in the air and off the edge). Personally, I like her squad warp ammo on my Adept and there's some fun Shockwave hijinks I run with her and my Vanguard.
Plus, her combat taunts are the bestest thing ever.
If you take Horizon in a vacuum, an Engineer build that works out around Level 12 that I was kicking around was Overload 2, Incineration Blast, Drone 2, Cryo Blast 1, Tech Mastery 3, Bonus 1. Like I said, I haven't played Engineer in a while, so Engineer experts can chime in, but that should be pretty decent, even on the recruitment missions. I don't think lack of ranked up Overload is that big a deal considering 2 early game squadmates have Overload. As far as Incinerate v Cryo, Mordin has a big cooldown bonus with Full Cryo, so as Engineer I would make that his priority while I concentrate on Incinerate. I understand you don't have to put the point in Cryo Blast if you have NS, but it is partly an illustrative point, and at Level 12 you will have a free point in the above build anyway so you can unlock it as opposed to banking the point.
As much as it pains me to say it (being the cryo fanatic that I am), if taking NS on engineer, at level 12 I would probably forgo cryo and keep combat drone at rank 1 (saving three points), and put them into passive.
One thing I note about this discussion is the use of even levels when talking about point allocation. Yet, I find I try to sequence the missions so they are done on odd levels 5, 7, 9, 11, etc. until I get to level 20. This is because your squad mates only level up every other level after level 5. So after I do a major mission, at say level 5, I do a minor mission to get to level 7. So, for instance, do Zaeed's mission at level 5, then go off and do the Crash Site and maybe some other little 50 point errand so that I can get to level 7 for the next major mission.
The levels I used were just ones I got looking back at where they were on the last run I did, which had an import from Level 57. So there are all sorts of ways you might not be at a certain level for whatever mission. Just wanted to give a starting point for the discussion. If you want to compare the characters at different levels, by all means use a different level.
I don't think I ever put enough effort into my plan of mission order so that I would always be at a certain level for a certain mission. I just sort of go do what mission I want to do.
edit:
Also earlier today in between football games I was going back to some real old threads about Engineer and Infiltrator just to see some things. Always fun to look back at what people were saying in 2010 and 2011. 
Also earlier today in between football games I was going back to some real old threads about Engineer and Infiltrator just to see some things. Always fun to look back at what people were saying in 2010 and 2011.
So true. That actually reminded me of this thread (2011) where someone asked if the Vanguard was overpowered. Sinosleep then referenced this thread (2010) from a year earlier where, to quote Sinosleep: "is TWENTY pages of being told vanguards suck, charge sucks, shotguns suck, insanity is impossible, having my videos nit picked to death, and finally being accused of cheating. "
As I think about this some more, we are discussing which class is the 'best', but I think we are really trying to determine which class is the 'most effective'. 'Best' can mean different things to different people, ranging from 'most effective', to 'most versatile', to 'most interesting' or 'most fun'.
Player skill and player preference can really determine the 'best' class as well. For example, a well-played Vanguard can be very efficient and very fun. However, I am not terribly adept at playing a Vanguard well. If other people were to watch me play, they could assume that a Vanguard may struggle to excel at higher difficulties and therefore is not very effective. Contrast that to the much better Vanguard players such as Kronner or Sinosleep or Bozorgmehr back in the day and those same players would form a much different opinion.
Yeah one of the things I ran across was something I forgot, namely that Engineer was the least used class in ME2. Of course that was because "drone sucks!"
Yeah one of the things I ran across was something I forgot, namely that Engineer was the least used class in ME2. Of course that was because "drone sucks!"
According to BW stats, Engineer is the least played class in ME3. Wouldn't surprise me if it was the least played class in ME2 as well.
I've played engineer in ME2 and it wasn't bad. I've never played as sentinel. Nothing against the class, just never appealed to me.
Those old threads are also fun for the talk about NG+. Admittedly, it has been a long while since I played NG+ in ME2, but I never agreed that it was harder than import insanity.
Granted I would agree that the Level 30 enemies at the beginning of the game are stronger relative to you than they are when you are at level 30 in an import after upgrades (or later in NG+), but I disagree that you are at a bigger disadvantage in NG+ with all your powers and advanced weapons relative to where you are in an import game with just a couple powers and no advanced weapon training.
I've never done an NG+ in any of the ME games
Those old threads are also fun for the talk about NG+. Admittedly, it has been a long while since I played NG+ in ME2, but I never agreed that it was harder than import insanity. Granted I would agree that the Level 30 enemies at the beginning of the game are stronger relative to you than they are when you are at level 30 in an import after upgrades (or later in NG+), but I disagree that you are at a bigger disadvantage in NG+ with all your powers and advanced weapons relative to where you are in an import game with just a couple powers and no advanced weapon training.
Nor do I. But I think it's easy for players to get that impression, since the enemies are tougher and (as a level 30 character) it is natural to try play the game as if you had all the upgrades and durability you had at the end of the last game. It's easy to forget the challenges you had early in the previous playthrough without advanced weapons or fully leveled powers...
Yeah one of the things I ran across was something I forgot, namely that Engineer was the least used class in ME2. Of course that was because "drone sucks!"
I think most of these early impressions trace back to one basic issue. Most players new to ME2 played it as a cover shooter. 1) Find and hide in cover. 2) Pop out of cover briefly to shoot at stuff (usually the biggest thing) until half your health is gone. 3) Hide in cover until your shield/barrier come back. 4) repeat. With this approach, things like combat drone (which has limited duration, and does little damage on its own) are pearls before swine. So naturally soldiers and infiltrator were favored on Insanity.
So this just gets back to the issue Red raised about defining what it means to be "most effective". I think it is very difficult to define this independently of player skill and experience.
I think most of these early impressions trace back to one basic issue. Most players new to ME2 played it as a cover shooter. 1) Find and hide in cover. 2) Pop out of cover briefly to shoot at stuff (usually the biggest thing) until half your health is gone. 3) Hide in cover until your shield/barrier come back. 4) repeat. With this approach, things like combat drone (which has limited duration, and does little damage on its own) are pearls before swine. So naturally soldiers and infiltrator were favored on Insanity.
So this just gets back to the issue Red raised about defining what it means to be "most effective". I think it is very difficult to define this independently of player skill and experience.
I would also add that some Adept players approached the game -- specifically the protection/power system -- like they did in ME1 and thought that biotics were gimped or outright useless on Hardcore/Insanity. Some eventually adapted but others did not, or even outright refused to adapt and continued to complain about how protections gimped biotics.
Other players also complained that the global cooldown system was also bad and that powers should be on individual cooldowns again. Again, this complaint was mostly from the ME1 Adept crowd.
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