218 réponses à ce sujet

[Willowhugger]

There's also Dagna's research not leading to the creation of an independent Circle of Orzammar since the Circle of Ferelden was already made independent, but I didn't see Cullen losing his mind over the emancipation of the Circle of Magi as being "pretty horrible"; it's dark, certainly, but I think the existence of an autonomous Circle outweighs it.

 

As for the Dalish occupying their own land, Keeper Lanaya is able to keep the peace between the Dalish and their human neighbors outside of the Dalish Hinterlands, and she's a respected figure at the Ferelden court; that seems pretty positive to me, and I'm sorry players who chose the Dalish Boon will have their choice handwaved in Inquisition.

 

1. Well there's no positives listed for independence either. We get no indication how the independent Circle goes over with the mages, the templars, or anyone outside of Irvings reaction.

 

2. Alistair doesn't say WHAT went wrong either.

[Joe-Poe]

oh don't act like the slides in Awakening were knowingly going to be retconned

 

Anders was dead until BioWare wanted him back from the dead and so RETCON

pretty much this on every retcon! So and so can or did die or whatever....Devs wait he/she is my pet character or would be great for this story...screw the lore or continuity of the story Retcon it!

 

I quit reading my favorite author because of bring people back from the dead....R.A. Salvatore..The companions are dead (pissed about that but not as much as)...drizzt is dead wait no they are magically a live because I want to write a new book... and with god like power to boot.

[Tarvesh]

I thought that is Andraste in her armor?
Hint of bosom, dress armor, no?

Every time I look at the plaque in front of it, it reads 'the Maker'.

[Tootles FTW]

Don't know why everyone is so kerfuffle-d over the Leliana "retcon" since we'll presumably get her first-hand explanation in DAI.  Same with Morrigan, I reckon.  Not that Bioware has been known for particularly good "It t'was a flesh wound!" explanations (Oghren: Eh, I was dead? Too drunk to remember, lolz!), but at least they never willfully ignore it.  

[Gervaise]

I'd imagine that if you killed Leliana in DAO, then she will not have very fond memories of the Warden.    However, it would not be the first time that someone died and was then resurrected.    Thedas is a world where these things are possible, provided there is a body.   Which is why I think the Magisters had Andraste burnt, just to make sure there was no possibility of her coming back.

 

Wynne had been saved from death once by her friendly spirit, so no reason why this should not have happened a second time if Warden killed her.   However, in Asunder her history does have her as part of the Warden's party right up to the confrontation with the archdemon.   Ditto Leliana.      Anders could also have been raised by Justice (as he was in his short story) even if he hadn't faked his death.   He was never that committed to the Grey Wardens and I always thought he would bail at some point.    Karl was probably a one off but I always thought the way Anders went on about women hinted at some sort of over compensation, so may be he was a bit confused about his sexuality and coming to terms with it.   Anyway it wasn't such a stretch for him to be bisexual from the off.  

 

Since we are allowed to create a world state in the Keep, our choices are going to be recognised.   Where these appear contradicted, as in the survival of Leliana, I'm sure there will be an in game explanation.   My money is on the fact that the temple was standing on a huge mountain of lyrium.

[PsychoBlonde]

Another possibility is that Karl was Anders' only bisexual experience.

The thing about sexuality is you can be bisexual with dozens of female relationships and only one male one.

Maybe Anders thought Karl was the only guy he'd ever be with.

 

It happens.

Heck, maybe Justice was the bisexual one.

[PsychoBlonde]

Every time I look at the plaque in front of it, it reads 'the Maker'.

That's Andraste.  The "plaque" you're referring to is a placed codex entry, not a label for the statue.

The Chantry doesn't do representations of the Maker anywhere that we've seen.  Statues etc. are all Andraste, her Disciples, Maferath, and so on.

[PsychoBlonde]

To be fair, both the Epilogues are pretty horrible aren't they?

"Cullen becomes a serial killer."

There was actually a serious oddity with this epilogue slide--if you don't actually *tell* Cullen that you plan to let the mages go free instead of killing them, but just end the conversation without saying either way, you can save the mages and you don't get the "Cullen goes crazy" epilogue slide.

So, apparently it wasn't the mages being saved that made Cullen nuts, but you telling him about it.

[JohnstonMR]

I get a little bit tetchy with all this "our choices don't matter" stuff.  I mean, OK, I get that it's an RPG, and sure it's nice to be able to choose my path, but at the end of the day, what I want from a game is a little challenge, some fun adventure, and a good story.  

I also don't buy into the "our choices didn't matter in ME3" thing.  Don't tell me they didn't.  I stopped the Reaper invasion.  I reunited the Geth with the Quarians and gave them back their homeworld.  I stopped the genophage and gave the Krogan a future.  And because I gave up my own selfhood and life to unite flesh and synthetic, I made sure the cycle of violence would end.  

Even if ME4 goes off in another direction and assumes a canonical ending I didn't choose in my playthrough, my choices mattered to the story as I experienced it.  Nothing else matters to me as a player.  

Similarly, in my playthroughs of DAO and DA2, the Warden lived, Morrigan went off to have his child, Anora is Queen and rules alone, Alistair is happy to be a Grey Warden, Hawke and Isabela went off to adventure together, Cullen is sane, if not a little hostile, etc.  Doesn't matter at all if another player's world is different.  

[Tootles FTW]

I get a little bit tetchy with all this "our choices don't matter" stuff.  I mean, OK, I get that it's an RPG, and sure it's nice to be able to choose my path, but at the end of the day, what I want from a game is a little challenge, some fun adventure, and a good story.  

I also don't buy into the "our choices didn't matter in ME3" thing.  Don't tell me they didn't.  I stopped the Reaper invasion.  I reunited the Geth with the Quarians and gave them back their homeworld.  I stopped the genophage and gave the Krogan a future.  And because I gave up my own selfhood and life to unite flesh and synthetic, I made sure the cycle of violence would end.  

Even if ME4 goes off in another direction and assumes a canonical ending I didn't choose in my playthrough, my choices mattered to the story as I experienced it.  Nothing else matters to me as a player.  

Similarly, in my playthroughs of DAO and DA2, the Warden lived, Morrigan went off to have his child, Anora is Queen and rules alone, Alistair is happy to be a Grey Warden, Hawke and Isabela went off to adventure together, Cullen is sane, if not a little hostile, etc.  Doesn't matter at all if another player's world is different.  

 

I really don't want to go into an ME3 tangent...BUT I WILL.

Spoiler

Example of my choices not mattering at all: Whether the Quarians or Geth lived or died does not matter to the ending.  In fact, that entire storyline might as well have never happened with the Starchild's conclusion that "organics will always be killed by synthetics" despite the fact you could have just united them.  This should have mattered.  This should have been a big frickin' deal.  But it's not, and you can't argue this logic to the Starchild.  

The same could be said about the entire option to Synthesize the galaxy (against it's will) going in the face of the entire genophage arc where an outside force biologically tampered with an entire species for The Greater Good ™.  Yet we're being sold that this is the best possible ending with, once again, no option to argue the wrongness of this logic???  Yeah, no.  It's BS, and these are only two examples because I'm at work and I don't really want to pop a vein going into the entire mess.

 

 

I know retconning is inevitable in some form or another, especially in this medium as gameplay necessitates some bending of the lore (i.e. templar PC characters not needing lyrium, or no one acknowledging MageHawke or blood magic), but I think DA has been pretty open with at least addressing the inconsistencies.  They could have had Leliana's brief appearance in DA2 make no reference to her being "killed" in DAO - after all, why would Hawke even know about it? - but they intentionally included the dialogue.  I appreciate that, even if I may find the result still annoying.

[Kantr]

what were the boon retcons?

 

The dalish elves got in trouble, but with the Mages, Alistair mentions them being free in 2

[LobselVith8]

1. Well there's no positives listed for independence either. We get no indication how the independent Circle goes over with the mages, the templars, or anyone outside of Irvings reaction.

 

Independence for the Circle of Ferelden doesn't happen because it was rectonned so that the Chantry simply said so, and the consequences of the Magi Boon were rectonned as well.

 

2. Alistair doesn't say WHAT went wrong either.

 

In the post-Dalish Boon scenario (where the curse was ended), if the Hinterlands aren't populated by Dalish with Lanaya keeping the peace, then it contradicts the Epilogues that said Lanaya kept the peace between the Dalish and the neighboring humans, and that Lanaya was a respected figure in court. Given all the handwaves that have taken place, I see little reason to make excuses for Bioware.

[Tootles FTW]

what were the boon retcons?

 

The dalish elves got in trouble, but with the Mages, Alistair mentions them being free in 2

 

 

Independence for the Circle of Ferelden doesn't happen because it was rectonned so that the Chantry simply said so, and the consequences of the Magi Boon were rectonned as well.

 

I think Alistair says something along the lines as it not being as simple as he thought?  Being King he can't just willy-nilly declare a Circle independent without serious repercussions, such as a possible war with the Chantry & templars, etc.  I think this can honestly be chalked up to the Warden's and Alistair's idealism not considering the reality of making a free Circle happen.

[LobselVith8]

I think Alistair says something along the lines as it not being as simple as he thought?  Being King he can't just willy-nilly declare a Circle independent without serious repercussions, such as a possible war with the Chantry & templars, etc.  I think this can honestly be chalked up to the Warden's and Alistair's idealism not considering the reality of making a free Circle happen.

 

As I said, it's a recton from Origins where there were consequences for making the Circle of Ferelden independent, including how (despite Dagna's research) an independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form because the Circle of Ferelden is already autonomous from the Chantry; I'm well aware of the recton that took place to explain why the Circle of Ferelden wasn't independent post-Origins.

[Tootles FTW]

As I said, it's a recton from Origins where there were consequences for making the Circle of Ferelden independent, including how (despite Dagna's research) an independent Circle of Orzammar doesn't form because the Circle of Ferelden is already autonomous from the Chantry; I'm well aware of the recton that took place to explain why the Circle of Ferelden wasn't independent post-Origins.

 

Ah, so there's an actual retcon from within the same game?  Got ya.

[Medhia_Nox]

If you guys are mad that your choices in game don't matter - I have REALLY bad news about the inevitability of real life.

[KBomb]

Anders was bisexual in Awakenings...he propositioned Ogren when in a party banter.

Anders: Spirit of Justice or he was in your group saving Amaranthine.

When did he proposition him? Is this the same kind of evidence that people used to "prove" he was "flirting" with Nathaniel?

I honestly don't care if Anders is bisexual or not, but not every jocular comment equals flirting or a need to breed.

[Willowhugger]

I'm not sure either of those are retcons so much as failures.

There's a difference.

Retcons would be saying they never happened.

Failures happen in RL.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not sure either of those are retcons so much as failures.

There's a difference.

Retcons would be saying they never happened.

Failures happen in RL.

 

If it contradicts the consequences for the Magi and Dalish Boons, then it's a recton. It's not as though there aren't other handwaves - Oghren coming back from the dead if the Warden killed him, Anders and Justice meeting if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes, el ect.

[Willowhugger]

If it contradicts the consequences for the Magi and Dalish Boons, then it's a recton. It's not as though there aren't other handwaves - Oghren coming back from the dead if the Warden killed him, Anders and Justice meeting if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed in the Dragonbone Wastes, el ect.

 

1. There's no listed consequence for the Magi boons and both Anora as well as Alistair mention it won't be easier.

 

2. Those could still have happened followed by events following so.

 

The rest I won't argue with.

[BlazingSpeed]

In my awakening playthrough Anders won't even be a warden (I'll take Morrigan lite I guess...) I wonder how that will turn out in DA2 since I got another copy of DAO the DLC and DA2 for 12 bucks at amazon back in May.

[LobselVith8]

1. There's no listed consequence for the Magi boons and both Anora as well as Alistair mention it won't be easier.

 

Aside from the different Epilogue slides that reflect different consequences because of the Magi Boon, you mean.

 

2. Those could still have happened followed by events following so.

 

If the Dalish didn't settle the lands and Lanaya didn't keep the peace with their human neighbors outside the Hinterlands (which seems likely since it's still part of Redcliffe in Inquisition), then I don't see any reason to make excuses for another handwave.

[Willowhugger]

 

Aside from the different Epilogue slides that reflect different consequences because of the Magi Boon, you mean.

 

I looked for them with the Mage Boon and I played a Mage Player who asked for it.

So what were they aside from Cullen?

[LobselVith8]

I looked for them with the Mage Boon and I played a Mage Player who asked for it.

So what were they aside from Cullen?

 

I mentioned Cullen's reaction to Circle autonomy as well as the absence of an independent Circle of Orzammar (despite Dagna's research since the Circle of Ferelden is already independent) a few posts above. This is becoming a bit repetitive at this point.

[Willowhugger]

I mentioned Cullen's reaction to Circle autonomy as well as the absence of an independent Circle of Orzammar (despite Dagna's research since the Circle of Ferelden is already independent) a few posts above. This is becoming a bit repetitive at this point.

 

Okay, Cullen going nuts isn't any way a statement about the Circle's autonomy other than he likes it. We don't have anyone else reacting to it like the Mages, Templars, or the rest of Thedas.

As for that, are we sure that's not a bug?