24 réponses à ce sujet

[ForgottenWarrior]

Was just thinking about how awful this would looks in Mass Effect of the next generation.

If you ever played ME2 or ME3 then you know how annoying those two guns are. No matter the class restrictions or a loadout, in a cutscenes youl'l end up using them anyway. This constantly brakes the integrity of a story.

Of course devs are aware of this problem and actually even tryed to fix it. In Leaviathan DLC there is some scenes where companions are using the right weapons - the ones they have equiped. But it turn out to be this:

Spoiler

A shotgun with a firerate of an assaul rifle. Does this looks better than when Avenger appears out of air? That's an open quiestion.

So, i also been thinking about ways of fixing this. Here is some:

1) The honest one. Long and expensive, but it will work. Just foreseen the every possible situations that may happend. Not necessary every possible gun in game, but at least a group of guns. let's say, shotgun will be firing with an overage firerate that is usual for shotguns.

2) The Plot Gun. Well, Avenger and Predator ARE The Plot Guns. But the main difference must be that this gun should become a gameplay one as well, so it wouldn't appear out of air. Pistols or SMG's are a good candidates to be a plot gun. Every class have to always carry those guns. They might not be as good as the primary gameplay ones, but they could serve a role of a backup weapons. And even more logical would be to make then a ME1-style weapons.

3) All-In One Gun. I personnally see this as the most flexible way. You see, instead of using 4 or 5 different guns and carry all this weight - why not just use a weapon-complex that could change its configuration when it's needed? Like the Forerunner weaponry from Halo 4. It also allow to cinematic design team to create much more variable cutscenes. Let's say, the most efficient way to take down an enemy from a very long distance would be a sniper rifle - so, PC will just change configuration and take out that enemy efficiently in a cutscene. Or will use a shotgun config to kill some husks at close range (does anybody think zombies won't return?).


Well, that's my toughts on this. Sure, it might not be the very critical problem that will ruine everything in a game, but it's that small uncuttable thing that makes games better. I personnaly think that difference between Next Gen and past one should lies not only in graphics, but also in those small details that would make next ME feels really superior and not just recolored old thing.

P.S. Sorry for lame use of English))

[Ellanya]

Good point, ForgottenVarrior! A little weird, when instead of weapons that I have chosen for my character, I suddenly see something quite different!

[Vazgen]

I would prefer simply seeing the weapons me and my squadmates have equipped. Make cutscenes out of gameplay sequences, not predetetermined movies.

[Farangbaa]

I would prefer simply seeing the weapons me and my squadmates have equipped. Make cutscenes out of gameplay sequences, not predetetermined movies.

 

This is already what happens.

 

The change in gun has to do with clipping and stuff like that. Not every gun works everywhere (space wise), not every gun has the same rate of fire, etc.

[Vazgen]

Ah, I see. In that case I go with 2. Have plot animations the ones for a pistol and show the pistol you have equipped (make equipping a pistol mandatory)

[RedCaesar97]

This has never bothered me like it has other people.

 

The only way to 'fix' this problem without spending a whole lot of time is with either your second choice (everyone has to carry a pistol or SMG), or no one must fire a gun in any cutscene.

 

 

The problem with trying to make cutscenes work with every gun, is you cannot account for every gun, since you can always add weapons through DLC.

 

The 'all in one' gun is kind of a cop-out and takes a step backwards I think. If you go this route, then we are back to ME1 class of weaponry where you only have one assault rifle, one pistol, one sniper rifle, and one shotgun. To make it work, you have to build your core game and possibly even lore around this concept. With Mass Effect, that would require another lore change. The thermal clip haters would love that change I suppose, but it extremely limits a diverse weapon set.

 

Having everyone carry a sidearm (pistol or SMG) is one of the better ways to get around this. This is what made Mass Effect 1 less of an issue since everyone carried every weapon, and if a gun was needed to be fired, then a Pistol would be used since every class was trained in it. (exception would be the shotgun when killing Wrex, but again, everyone carried every type of gun). Forcing everyone carrying a pistol or SMG is probably the best option since it prevents less of a problem of trying to make every weapon work in every cutscene, or having every weapon fire the same in a cutscene; see Leviathan DLC for triple-shooting Claymore or Mantis/Widow/Javelin.

 

The last option is to never have a cutscene where a weapon is fired. This will prevent the issue where you shoot a weapon you do not have training in. There are two ways to utilize this method:

 a. Pull out/use your currently-equipped or last-equipped weapon in the cutscene but do not fire it.

 b. Do not even pull out a weapon in the cutscene.

 

The last option provides some additional complications though, mostly revolving around writing, namely, you need to have a story that does not require any cutscenes where you shoot or need to pull out a weapon. All combat must be done in-game by the player. While this does seem like a good idea to most, consider the following example:

 

In Mass Effect 2 during the Infiltration of the Collector Base, some players complained of Shepard and squadmates using weapons they did not have in the cutscene where the squad is preventing Collectors from rushing the door that the tech specialist is trying to close. While it is certainly strange that everyone is using 'unfamiliar' weapons, how would you try to put that in-game as a sequence instead of cutscene? Could it have worked as an in-game sequence? Sometimes, a cutscene can convey something that gameplay cannot. In this case, a sense of urgency and unknowing (will the tech specialist close the door in time?) and a showing of squad unity ("Don't let anyone through that door!"). This could not be properly conveyed through a gameplay sequence.

 

Just something to think about.

[Gladerunner]

I think a better solution is for cutscenes to be adaptive. There are only 5 weapon types in the game; each weapon type has it's own animation. Each gun has it's own firing sound. Each gun can roughly be categorised as single shot, burst fire, full auto, pellet, or explosive. 

 

I can see some troubles with unique weapons like the Reegar or Scorpion, so explosive needs to be it's own category. Preferably, squad members will use a precise weapon, but that might not always be possible.

 

That's 5*X*5*Y (X being how many weapons there are, ranging from perhaps 5~15) (Y being how many weapons said person has, if the game wants to prioritise lethal or precise shooting; protagonist can have up to all 5 weapons, but squaddies will have 2 as usual), and depending on how many unique firing sounds there are in the game. If the game can register plot details, class, gender, etc, it can call 3 variables easily. A bit of extra effort, but well worth it.

 

Example: Protagonist has a Reegar, Falcon, and Predator. If precision is necessary (i.e. hostage situation), it defaults to the Predator. If it's not (i.e. every normal situation), it'll default to whatever weapon protagonist was currently holding. 

Before the player makes a shot, and the game loads in the variables; type of weapon, sound of weapon, type of shot. 

 

This is completely modular, like most of Mass Effects cutscenes. It might get repetitive, but what isn't.

[Obadiah]

You think ME is bad? Try playing a Trooper in SWG SWTOR. In every cutscene he swaggers in and draws his awesome pistol, which that class isn't allowed to equip. The pistol appears holstered in custscenes, gets used, then vanishes afterwards.

[ForgottenWarrior]

You think ME is bad? Try playing a Trooper in SWG. In every cutscene he swaggers in and draws his awesome pistol, which that class isn't allowed to equip. The pistol appears holstered in custscenes, gets used, then vanishes afterwards.

You mean SWTOR? I played it. Yeah, you are right, the simmilar problem exist there as well. And it indicate that the problem is not in the technical restrictions but in a fundamental studios game design. Agent have that problem too, btw.

[Nicksta92]

Wouldn't this problem simply be fixed by a few snippets of code that load the gun the player currently has selected in their loadout?  I feel this is a simple method or two that would be called at every cutscene, but it's so insignificant the developers either often forgot or realized they never added it and found it such a small problem they never went back and fixed it.

[Tonymac]

Wouldn't this problem simply be fixed by a few snippets of code that load the gun the player currently has selected in their loadout?  I feel this is a simple method or two that would be called at every cutscene, but it's so insignificant the developers either often forgot or realized they never added it and found it such a small problem they never went back and fixed it.

 

For the most part, in ME2 it worked pretty well.  ME1 was very good at keeping track of say, what armor you wore and such as that.  ME2 was highly polished, and worked nearly perfectly for all of those cut scenes.

 

ME3 they just didn't have the time - or so I get the impression.  I have no idea what kind of pressure they were under for deadlines, but the game left me feeling like it was rushed.

[Chashan]

You mean SWTOR? I played it. Yeah, you are right, the simmilar problem exist there as well. And it indicate that the problem is not in the technical restrictions but in a fundamental studios game design. Agent have that problem too, btw.

 

Noticed that as well, although I don't find the "murder-pistol" anywhere near as jarring as ME2/ME3's ubiquitous Pred/Avg or rapid-firing shotguns/snipers - those latter do throw up the question why there wouldn't be several firemodes for those guns in general...rapid-firing widow, brrr.

 

That could actually somewhat address the issue: design weapons in the next entry in general to have several firemodes to cover for that. Or have anyone on the team proficient in handguns and/or automatic rifles so that those can be accounted for accordingly in cutscenes.

[Farangbaa]

For the most part, in ME2 it worked pretty well.  ME1 was very good at keeping track of say, what armor you wore and such as that.  ME2 was highly polished, and worked nearly perfectly for all of those cut scenes.

 

ME3 they just didn't have the time - or so I get the impression.  I have no idea what kind of pressure they were under for deadlines, but the game left me feeling like it was rushed.

 

There's a few instances in ME1 where the armor suddenly changes (Virmire for instance). Guns aren't really a problem anyway, everyone has every weapon equipped and the difference between weapons is marginal.

 

ME2 is 'nearly' perfect indeed, because there are instances where characters, including Shepard, suddenly change guns.

[Tonymac]

There's a few instances in ME1 where the armor suddenly changes (Virmire for instance). Guns aren't really a problem anyway, everyone has every weapon equipped and the difference between weapons is marginal.

 

ME2 is 'nearly' perfect indeed, because there are instances where characters, including Shepard, suddenly change guns.

 

Well, certain classes did not carry certain guns - so that would indeed mess with cut scenes.  The issue was, after your Collector Ship run, you could specialize in guns not normally available to that class.

 

The Virmire armor changes was kind of silly, but I see why it happened.  Everyone was scripted on the beach, so anyone you took with you changed back into stock armor.  The game should have applied your armor changes to characters even when they were on the ship.  Would have been cool seeing Wrex in the Battlemaster armor made by the Geth Armory on board the ship.

[Vazgen]

I'm not bothered as much with the weapons themselves (though it would've been much better if my Engineer did not pull an Avenger out of air) but with the assault rifle equipping animations in ME3. Seeing how my character pulls out a pistol from over his shoulder sucks

[Han Shot First]

I think every character having to carry a pistol is probably the best solution. Make pistols mandatory and drop the weight restrictions for that weapon type.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think the best way is to avoid any kind of shooting action in cutscenes. Video game should be avoiding this kind of stuff any way and BioWare isn't particularly gifted at animating them. That way they only have to worry about pointing guns at people in dialogue sections and holstering weapons when entering a cutscene, none of which require shooting.

[Farangbaa]

I don't even think it's really that much of a problem, the switching of guns. I find it much, much more annoying that my Shepards completely forget they are an adept, vanguard, sentinel, infiltrator or engineer*, except in the Citadel DLC. Somehow he/she only remembers they're a soldier.

*except in Omega DLC

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't even think it's really that much of a problem, the switching of guns. I find it much, much more annoying that my Shepards completely forget they are an adept, vanguard, sentinel, infiltrator or engineer*, except in the Citadel DLC. Somehow he/she only remembers they're a soldier.

*except in Omega DLC

 

Another benefit to avoiding action cutscenes. You never have to adjust for the different powers.

[Vazgen]

Another benefit to avoiding action cutscenes. You never have to adjust for the different powers.

Simply pointing weapons will also require adjustment. In fact they had class-specific animations in ME1 and ME2, only not for Shepard. Like Liara activating biotic field around her and Tali bringing up her omni-tool instead of pointing weapons. Should not be much of a problem. For mixed classes, Infiltrator can still point a gun only have an omni-tool active, Vanguard - gun + biotic glow, Sentinel - omni-tool + biotic glow

[N147]

I'm pretty sure this was more of a memory problem than it was a technical one. The limited amount of RAM in the old consoles meant that your current weapon couldn't be loaded into memory to appear in the cutscene, especially if it was going to be fired. And I guess this remains a problem for the PC version because it was just a port. I assume this will no longer be an issue going forward since the new consoles have plenty of RAM.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I'm pretty sure this was more of a memory problem than it was a technical one. The limited amount of RAM in the old consoles meant that your current weapon couldn't be loaded into memory to appear in the cutscene, especially if it was going to be fired. And I guess this remains a problem for the PC version because it was just a port. I assume this will no longer be an issue going forward since the new consoles have plenty of RAM.

 

Maybe, although the problem wasn't as bad in ME2. Sure you had everyone defaulting to the Avenger in any scene involving diving, rolling, or line holding; but cut scenes other wise had the right weapon pulled out and, sometimes, even firing.

[N147]

Maybe, although the problem wasn't as bad in ME2. Sure you had everyone defaulting to the Avenger in any scene involving diving, rolling, or line holding; but cut scenes other wise had the right weapon pulled out and, sometimes, even firing.

True, but with ageing hardware there comes a point where you've squeezed everything you could out of it, and the only way you could make your game look any better is to sacrifice something unimportant so that something the player sees often looks better. It's kind of like fiddling with the video settings on a PC game with an older computer, you want your textures to be the highest resolution? Anti-aliasing has to go etc.

[Vazgen]

I'm pretty sure this was more of a memory problem than it was a technical one. The limited amount of RAM in the old consoles meant that your current weapon couldn't be loaded into memory to appear in the cutscene, especially if it was going to be fired. And I guess this remains a problem for the PC version because it was just a port. I assume this will no longer be an issue going forward since the new consoles have plenty of RAM.

If it's a memory problem, then why in some cutscenes Shepard's equipped weapon is shown? Even better, if you put a melee stunner on a predator and have it during Citadel coup mission, the mod is visible when shooting Kai Leng during car chase scene. Avenger is, like ImaginaryMatter described, an easy way out for scenes involving animations that can result in severe clipping with some weapons like Black Widow. 

 

Another thing that annoys me is how every weapon is equipped using AR animation during cutscenes, like this: Video

Considering the animations are there, in the game, it's nothing else than laziness (or not enough time for development)

[N147]

If it's a memory problem, then why in some cutscenes Shepard's equipped weapon is shown? Even better, if you put a melee stunner on a predator and have it during Citadel coup mission, the mod is visible when shooting Kai Leng during car chase scene. Avenger is, like ImaginaryMatter described, an easy way out for scenes involving animations that can result in sever clipping with some weapons like Black Widow. 

 

Another thing that annoys me is how every weapon is equipped using AR animation during cutscenes, like this: Video

Considering the animations are there, in the game, it's nothing else than laziness (or not enough time for development)

To be honest I don't know why it shows up in some and not in others, my guess is that Bioware has different kinds of cutscenes. And the only ones that show your weapon are the ones that are run in-game without any special animations, like the ones that take place right before combat starts. Those are fairly simple because they only use their multi-purpose animations that you see used all the time like during regular conversations. But the ones that are more complicated, like the one where you first meet Kai Leng, uses unique ones, where I'm sure would have taken a lot more work to get every weapon to appear. But I do know for a fact that any mods you have equipped to an Avenger or Predator will appear in cutscenes.