173 réponses à ce sujet

[ChuiDuma]

I'm not religious and I don't really like the idea of mass religion. It's not that I think that people are invalid for putting their faith into such things, it's just that when you have something that's so organized and mass "marketed" (for lack of a better word) there's more potential to suppress individual beliefs and values. I think that religion has a place in some parts of society, but that it's not necessary for society to work - most of the general morality questions addressed by religion have an answer in common sense. 

 

I try to be tolerant of all religions and those who believe in them. The only time I take issue is when people try to force me into their beliefs, but that's not restricted to religion (I have a vegetarian roommate who guilt trips me, for example).

 

As such, I view the Chantry as another religion that has a place in the world for certain people, but I'm a bit wary of it at the same time. They do tend to have some rather zealous and oppressive biases, especially in some of their members.. but that's just like real religion. 

I do dislike them a little more as a whole now though since I played DA:II though.

[Silith]

I get where you're coming from actually, I do tend to have a bias toward the Chantry because of it's monotheism. I admit it's likely a bias and not really reflective of the Chantry itself; do you also not have an issue with the Dalish? I find myself liking the Dalish's creation myth and finding it interesting.

 

This. I have no problem roleplaying characters believing in many gods (a la D&D), especially when the lore states that those "gods" actually exist. The DA chantry is too close to certain real world monotheistic religions for me to be really comfortable around them. It actually breaks my immersion from time to time.

I'm mostly roleplaying atheist characters who believe that the Andraste thing was a misunderstanding, or as a Dalish - I like their take on religion (again, polytheistic).

 

Apart from that, I have no problem with the Chantry as an organization since it seems to be led by good people mostly, and I think my first Inquisitor will be atheistic but pro-Chantry (as long as the Chantry carries on the views of Elthina, but who knows).

[JAZZ_LEG3ND]

Within the confines of the Dragon Age world, like if I was in it? Good question. When you consider the treatment of mages, it can look a lot like The Red Cross meets Gitmo. But followers of the Chantry aren't typically bad, and following the Chantry doesn't make you evil. Much like a real religion in that regard, some followers are bad, and sometimes following makes good people do bad things.

 

That said, some of Dragon Age's principle characters often draw their motivation and strength from the Chantry. Charging into Darkspawn to the battlecry "For the Chantry!" seems like a noble way to go out. I mean, you don't earn life points and level up for not believing hocus-pocus. If the Chantry is the means to a just end, then it is doing good, similarly if it is the cause of injustice, then it is doing bad. But an institution of that scale is such a vast and complex entity that one, ten, or even a hundred bad people couldn’t hope to represent the whole, and in my experience, most followers of the Chantry have noble goals and pursue them rather selflessly.

 

So, on an individual level, no, obviously I wouldn’t subscribe to Chantry teachings, but I wouldn’t oppose them just for the sake of it, nor would I challenge the beliefs of potential allies for shits-and-giggles, and I certainly wouldn’t dismiss the opportunity to learn; much like logic, wisdom as a concept is not restricted by the contents. It is senseless and exactly illogical to undermine a cause because of petty ideological grievances.

[Ieldra]

I am atheist/agnostic (depending on the definition: I am as sure as I can be of anything that no god exists, but since all our knowledge is preliminary, I can't rule out with absolute certainty that I might be wrong. I count myself atheist rather than agnostic since I have the same degree of certainty about gods as I have about well-established knowledge gained by science. Neither is absolute, but I treat it as truth in everyday life). 

 

Towards Andrasteanism, I have a similar attitude as I have towards my culture's dominant religion. I leave it alone as long as it leaves me alone, but I will get hostile if it attempts to interfere in my life or my protagonist's life, respectively. Unfortunately, such interference is a natural aspect of functional religions, so some conflict is inevitable. My concern about DAI is that I might not be able to disassociate my protagonists from Andrasteanism. I do not expect that my atheism will be explicitly represented in the choices I can make as the Inquisitor, but I do expect from Bioware that they do not explicitly exclude atheist players from identifying with their protagonist by making them canonically positive towards Andrasteanism. 

 

Also, my disagreement goes deeper than a mere "I don't believe in the Maker" (which alone would be pretty irrelevant), and it is with the religion, as represented by the Chant of Light, not just the Chantry and its practices. At the heart of this disagreement lies a fundamental values dissonance between myself and a central part of Andrasteanism's mythology as told through the story of the Golden City.

 

What is this? Well, I believe that the human drive to explore, cross the borders from the known into the unknown in order to increase our power to control our own fate (I am explicitly including the latter), that this is a virtue. Not good in a strictly moral sense - it can't be since it doesn't deal with human interaction and community - but a virtue, one of several possible cornerstones of a good life. Thus, I believe there was virtue in the ancient Magisters' attempt to reach the Golden City. This was tainted by their methods, and we can reasonably conclude that their motivations were as far from innocent or virtuous as we can imagine, but....the Chant of Light is not concerned with those. It doesn't even mention the blood sacrifice, the true evil of the Magisters. For the Chant of Light, what matters is that the attempt to reach the Golden CIty exemplifies the sin of pride. For me, if I disregard the methods as the Chant does, it exemplifies a virtuous undertaking.

 

On an allegorical level, the story of the Golden City presents an injunction to leave certain aspects of the world untouched by human artifice because they are fundamentally beyond our domain. I do not accept such boundaries. In my view, making these our domain is a virtuous act, if we do it responsibly. To use Christian terminology, to eat from the Tree of Knowledge was a virtuous act, and I only regret that we didn't get to eat from the Tree of Life, too, before we were caught - by an authoritarian father figure who can't accept that his children eventually grow up.

 

Thus, if my dislike of my culture's dominant religion parallels and reinforces my dislike of Andrasteanism, then this is because I have the same fundamental values dissonance between myself and either of them. I knew, or at least heavily suspected, that I would very much dislike Thedas' dominant religion on these grounds about 30 seconds into the intro of Dragon Age: Origins: "The Chantry teaches us that it was the pride of man that brought the darkspawn into our world" is the first sentence spoken. I have found no reason since to moderate my dislike, since a religion would be hard-pressed to find a philosophical stance more anathema to my own beliefs, and if I'm forced in any way to subscribe to it, DAI will not be my story and I will never be able to create protagonists I identify with. I do not limit myself to protagonists who believe as I do, but I must be able to play them if I want to enjoy this game as a roleplaying game as opposed to a game where I play a predefined character, where this does not matter as much.

 

The ME3 team told us, before ME came out, that we could roleplay against the Alliance. We could not. The DAI team told us we will not be forced to be friendly towards the Chantry and its beliefs. I just hope they're making it true this time.

 

Sidenote:

As a rule, I do not destroy the Sacred Ashes in DAO. They have a real power to heal beyond any other known magic, and to destroy such an immeasureably valuable and beneficial thing is against my personal ethics. It's also unbelievably petty if the only reason is that you disagree with the dominant interpretation of its origin. On the other hand, the decision to not destroy it has nothing at all to do with accepting the religion.

[Akkos]

I have a catholic family.... Though I'm not quite fond of it myself so I'm not that catholic as I think I'm..... I do consider myself a christian alone because I love doing good things. I do believe there is a "maker" above.

 

So I support anything in Chantry's favour that are good. Sister Petrice did make me go against the chantry in DA2 a lot.....In fact I think my hatred to the chantry started in DA2. Because in DAO I was a human noble and I agree with all Sten said about Chantry wisdom and children's role in the society... even my dalish warden favoured the chantry most of the time because I'm a warden. Left my former life behind.

 

So in this game is not that hard to be atheist or favour the chantry all the time because it's not like real life. We do not have magic in real life. Even the Qun... some people are like comparing it to Islam.. I feel I'm the only one not seeing that at all.  Because in the Qun the women controls everything...  

 

There is nothing in real life to compare Dragon age to actually. Chantry = Not Christian at all.... might be related to Islam because of the "magic" repression.

[avatoc]

The chantry is much like catholisicm prior to the 30 years war but far fewer follies so I am fine with supporting them to an extent and no problem playing a faithful character

[CrazyRah]

Not much at all really. As long as the chantry doesn't oppose what the characters I play then I'm not going to intefere with them either. As long as both of us stay out of the others way things work out rather well. It got faults, many faults but the chantry do also have a lot of good points aswell. It's not all built on people like Sister Petrice

[zqrahll]

I hate the Chantry & their Templars & would love to be able to wipe both out.    The entire organization is racist against elves-- having committed genocide against them in the past despite the Dalish working with Andraste, and patronizing, at best, against dwarves.   Plus, they enslave Mages (just in case) and don't even allow them simple things like being able to raise children.

 

I was really disappointed that you get so few options to go against the Chantry in Origins.   And we should have been allowed to kill Sebastian after he threatened war in DA2.

[Monster A-Go Go]

The Chantry obviously has its faults and I would like to see Thedas naturally evolve beyond its need for religion as an ethical polestar.  As an atheist, this is the same hope I have for our world, as well.

 

Unlike our world, however, the magic and impossible moments of Chantry mythology may actually be real.  Andraste seems to have been an actual person.  The Fade most definitely exists.  Holy ashes from a reliquary were able to restore a man at the edge of death.  There are undoubtedly irrefutable elements to the Maker's faith (and to all faiths in Thedas).  What we don't know, however, is how much of the Chantry's story is composed of living gods and honest truth, and how much is doctored history and the kind artifice possible in a world where magic is real.

 

For example, Andraste may have been blessed by a Maker, or she may have been a powerful mage using popular myth to rally support to her cause.  Or, she could have been both mage and a madwoman, simply hearing voices and interpreting them as those of a deity.  Further, we know that the Chantry alters the corpus of their texts to suit their needs - witness the omission of Shartan from the Chant of Light and the humanification of his image.  Thus it is difficult to sort truth from fiction, dogma from politics, and history from imagination.  The Chantry's pillars are undoubtedly shaky, but in a world where magic is possible, its foundation may actual be one of solid truth.

 

That said, I have difficulty playing characters who believe in the Chantry's teachings.  The holes are just too obvious and the church's abuses to heinous for me to easily lose myself in the role of a blind devotee.  Most of my characters will never accept blessings, but some will give alms in hopes that the money will go to help others.  They will argue the flaws in the faith whenever possible, but perhaps not desecrate Andraste's ashes.  After all, Thedas is a world where you can see the Black City when you sleep and creatures called Old Gods grow twisted and terrorize the world with hellish abandon.  In a world where there are actual, quantifiable pieces of evidence to support the myths, it's far more difficult to be an atheist than in a world where there is not a scrap of physical evidence to be found.

 

Nor do I feel that the Chantry should be torn asunder by outside forces.  Simply assuming power and dissolving the religion, or destroying its Holy See, or putting its leaders to death accomplishes nothing of value.  It would force believers into the shadows, foster resentment against the one responsible, and throw the world into turmoil.  The Chantry is too deeply woven into politics and world order; destroying it outright would have repercussions as immediately damaging as any Blight and would be felt for generations.  If not for the wars and bids for power, or for the mass grief at the population's loss of perceived purpose, then because the equally pernicious influence of the Qun waits just beyond Thedas' borders, ready to spill in to the chaos and conquer with sword and script.

 

On the other hand, if the Chantry were to fall because it could no longer support its own lies, then that would be a natural death whose arrival I would welcome. There is a good chance that we will learn harsh and shocking truths about the Maker and his Faith during the course of Inquisition, and whether or not those revelations are damning to the Chantry or show support for its perceived failings, the public should be made to know.  If the Chantry's mortar is mixed more from lies than from truth, then it will begin to crumble and fall as the two are separated. 

 

I will approach Inquisition as always - with a character whose skepticism matches my own.  In the light of evidence I will re-evaluate my beliefs, either strengthening my resolve or changing my opinions.  Should a decision need to be made, it will be made in light of what I know of the Maker and the Chantry, not because of what I know of Earthly religions.  And in future games, my viewpoint will have evolved, but will remain supple enough to bend in light of new proof.  In short, I approach the Chantry the same way I approach all religion: needing more than stories, but needing nothing more than evidence.

[Ruairi46]

I'm quite the atheist irl, but I got too say I really enjoy playing pro chantry players. Also without being disrespectful, I think their is more evidence and a better argument for their god to actually exist then some irl religions.

[Olessan-]

I'm an athiest, and I don't particuarly mind the Chantry aside from the more questionable things it's been responsible for. Just like any religion I leave them be as long as they leave me be (pretty much every religion has some seriously questionable things), but since I also write I find it fascinating and critically analyze it.

 

Of course, there's rather more support for the Chantry's beliefs than real religions, due to the closeness of the Fade and whatnott.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

 

So in this game is not that hard to be atheist or favour the chantry all the time because it's not like real life. We do not have magic in real life. Even the Qun... some people are like comparing it to Islam.. I feel I'm the only one not seeing that at all.  Because in the Qun the women controls everything...  

 

You are wrong there. And even if they did, that would actually MAKE it more like Islam. Gender inequality is what makes the Orlesian Chantry a lot like real-life Catholicism, too. The sexism is part of the reason why I would never endorse it. I wouldn never endorse the Qun because it's basically an even more extreme form of Communism. I'd rather call the Qunari the ''Ottoman Communists''.

 

The only religion that I don't have an immediate knee-jerk aversion to would be the Dalish faith.

[wright1978]

I certainly have a low opinion of the Chantry, probably influenced by my extreme low opinion of real life religious institutions.

Normally my characters will tread a similar line and attempt to neuter the institution's power if provided the opportunity.

[Amirit]

Chantry is the reason mages are oppressed. Templars are only the instrument, the idea "aaaah, mage, burn it, folks!!!" - comes and cultivated by Chantry ("magic is a curse" - remember?). And only Chantry is allowed to determine the fate of every mage. And what do they do to templars is also unforgivable.

Sure, there are people who simply believe in Maker and Andraste and take words "let's live in peace" literally. Like with any religion (or any organisation, to be precise) there ARE good people in it - those who care about poor, sick, about world corruption and so on. But in general what we get now in Thedas is Chantries own doing. And it's far from saint.

[NasChoka]

I am not a big fan of the chantry. They called for an Exalted March against the dales and this led to elves living in the alienages. The chantry is also responsible for the whole templer-mage-situation we face in DAI.

[ManOfSteel]

Real religion =/= Fictional religion.

As an atheist, I find the chantry fascinating and have absolutely no qualms about playing a pro-chantry or templar-aligned character. In fact, I'm more likely to play such a character than I am anything else.

[Major Crackhead]

Indifferent for the most part, while the Chantry does have flaws it's nowhere near approaching the rap sheet of many religions RL medieval history. Although I hate Sebastian. A lot.

I still rather enjoy playing rude cynic characters like the TC's Dwarf Noble, however. 

[Milan92]

Real religion =/= Fictional religion.

 

As an atheist, I find the chantry fascinating and have absolutely no qualms about playing a pro-chantry or templar-aligned character. In fact, I'm more likely to play such a character than I am anything else. 

 

This is how I feel about it as well.

[Save_The_Queen]

Quite distant. If someone like Sebastian finds solace in religion and if it makes him a "better man", well good for him. Who am I to juge his standards of hapinness if it doesn't hurt anyone ? Same thing with Sten and his Qun.

 

As a catholic-raised atheist (not anti-theist, mind you), I think religions are at the same level as old myths, or legends. I just don't care if people believe in them or not, and I am not interested in taking a stand. Although, I absolutly can't tolerate proselitism or Exalted Marches, Qun campaigns...

[daveliam]

I'm an atheist in RL and have been for pretty much my entire life.  While my mother, who was a non-practicing Lutheran, required me to get the Catholic sacraments (from my father's religion), I was always highly skeptical of all religions.  Once I received the last sacrament, which I can't remember what it's even called (communion?), I never set foot back in a church outside of a handful of weddings and a few old historic churches that I've visited as a tourist (mainly for the architecture).  Normally, I skip the ceremony (especially if there is a religious ceremony aspect, and just show up for the reception.

 

In game, I roll all of my characters to be atheists as well.  Hawke was tough because there were always (to me) subtle hints that s/he was Andrastian, even if s/he wasn't terribly devout.  So most of my Hawkes are headcanoned as "raised Andrastrian and leaning agnostic".

 

In general, I approach the Chantry as I do all religions in real life:  as a group that believes that a fictional set of fables/stories are real.  In Thedas, it's a bit different because there is magic in the world.  But I still view it as mostly false.  Andraste did exist, but she was just a woman, possibly one with some mage abilities, who was a rebel leader.  She was martyred, but she didn't become the Bride of the Maker when she died.  She just died, like everyone else. 

 

I'm skeptical as a whole towards the Chantry and find some of the more devout Andrastians to be particularly annoying (looking at you, Sebastian and Leliana), but in general, I think most "everyday people" who happen to be Andrastrian are pretty "good" and are harmless.  I don't see the same parallel between the Chantry and the Church in regards to the amount of intolerance and hate that is propagated, so I'm less "against" the Chantry because of that. 

 

At least that's my take on things. 

[Arvaarad]

If I landed in Thedas tomorrow, I'd probably avoid it. Unverified beliefs and sometimes visions in a world that also contains malicious spirits? Sounds like possession waiting to happen.

I'm also a huge non-fan of any belief system that says suffering is always for a greater purpose, like Sebastian's dialogue with Fenris suggests (it's also present in the Qunari philosophy). With a worldview like that, only personal, proselytization-focused charity has any merit, so larger issues like environment or culturally acceptable injustices get less attention. Indeed, fixing the large-scale problems sometimes removes the opportunity for proselytization-based charity, leading believers to subtly oppose solving the root causes.

All that said, I've RP'd devout Andrastians and enjoyed playing around in that space. I was raised Fundamentalist, so it's an easy role to slip into.

[Dutchess]

I admit that this is one instance where my personal views strongly influence how I play characters. I am unlikely to roleplay a very religious character, at least in the DA universe. I tend to go for the responses that display outright rejection of belief in the Maker, or those that express doubt on the matter. Only after several playthroughs I might explore roleplaying a more religious character, but I still prefer to play intelligent characters who think critically, and to me that means they do not mindlessly accept a dogma propagated by an institution such as the Chantry (or the Qun). Even if the Maker were real and Andraste was truly his bride, there's still no doubt that the Chantry has adapted the Maker's views for their own purposes. I don't want to endorse that. Which is funny, I suppose, because I have little problems trying the more ruthless options in DA. That said, I don't feel the need or desire to root all Chantry followers and priests out and wipe the religion of the face of Thedas.

[Lee80]

I'm not an atheist.  I have a set of beliefs very similar to Christians (I prefer to think of it as what Christians SHOULD be).  Like some others have said though I don't really like organized religion that tries to force their views on others.  The fact that the Chantry took out a whole elf nation cause they won't drink the Andraste Kool-aide is just unforgivable in my opinion.  If we can do away with the Chantry completely in DA:I and replace it with a much better version, I'm all for it.  

 

If it continues as is, locking away mages, having more political power then the government, and just generally being bullies...I'll be very disappointed.  

[Who Knows]

I really dislike the Chantry.

Any doctrine that bases the salvation of the world on mass conversion is just asking for trouble.

[Monster A-Go Go]

I really dislike the Chantry.

Any doctrine that bases the salvation of the world on mass conversion is just asking for trouble.

Completely off-topic, but I just played the Chapter of the game your Avatar first appears in.  Loving that character!