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To Atheist Players: How do you feel about the Chantry?


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#101
mikeymoonshine

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My views on religion in game and out of the game are separate because they are two different ecosystems. I am agnostic in real life because I feel like we do not have enough data to process whether a higher diety exists or not. Lack of information does not equal a proof or disproof.

 

I know it's probably best not to make this into a real world discussion but so many have said this kind of thing I feel like I need to respond. 

 

Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge, Atheism is a statement of belief, could a god exist? Sure but we don't have any evidence for one. I choose not to believe in things that there is no evidence for, that includes all the various different gods and other supernatural claims that have been made over the course of human history. 

Most atheists will admit to being agnostic towards the existence of a deity but that doesn't mean they should contemplate the existence of god any more than it means they should contemplate the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. 

 

So sure, you can be undecided but saying you are agnostic to deities is just being honest, everyone is agnostic to deities. 


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#102
frylock23

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@Ynqve

 

I haven't seen many people who openly admit to being Christian dislike the Chantry, but then, I haven't seen many people openly admit to being Christian aside from a few isolated threads.

 

Myself, I separate the larger Chantry from the Templar/Circle issue. I think the Chantry suffers from the problem the medieval church did of becoming too large and too bureaucratic. More prone to being a political entity than a religious one, and as such, it has more divisions than it needs and not all of them know what the rest of it is doing and not all of the divisions are in accord with one another.

 

But what I think of the Chantry has nothing to do with my beliefs in reality. The two things aren't even in the same ballpark. Thedas is just one more of the fantasy worlds I enjoy, and the Chantry is part of its mythology, no more or less.

 

I just don't understand how people can so rabidly spend so much energy hating something that's so not real.



#103
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Ashkost say hissra, bas. Vinek kathas. 

 

Anaan esaam Qun.


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#104
tirnoney

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I know it's probably best not to make this into a real world discussion but so many have said this kind of thing I feel like I need to respond.

Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge, Atheism is a statement of belief, could a god exist? Sure but we don't have any evidence for one. I choose not to believe in things that there is no evidence for, that includes all the various different gods and other supernatural claims that have been made over the course of human history.
Most atheists will admit to being agnostic towards the existence of a deity but that doesn't mean they should contemplate the existence of god any more than it means they should contemplate the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

So sure, you can be undecided but saying you are agnostic to deities is just being honest, everyone is agnostic to deities.

It's a point that people like Dawkins and Hitchens have addressed before. The problem with the word agnostic is that covers a wide spectrum from those who feel there is a 50/50 chance of a deity and those who feel the probability is so small as to be negligible. For me the word atheist is more useful for those at the latter end of that spectrum, even though strictly speaking I'm an 'extreme' agnostic in that sense.
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#105
AlexiaRevan

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I just don't understand how people can so rabidly spend so much energy hating something that's so not real.

The same way peoples believe in a maker when so far there is no proof he exist , at all . 

 

As for hate , some love the chantry . I could say the same : Why peoples spend so much energy loving something that's not real ? 

 

Or why do they support the chantry ? why do they support the Templar ? why ? Why isn't there a elf city support ? a castless support ? a dalish support ? a just civilian support that doesn't believe or use the chantry ? a mage support ? why isn't there a Andraste only support ? 


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#106
Master Warder Z_

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The same way peoples believe in a maker when so far there is no proof he exist , at all . 

 

Besides Bioware stating they won't confirm or deny his existence.

 

Which to me implies there is a fifty, fifty chance of him existing or not existing.



#107
Ynqve

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@Ynqve

 

I haven't seen many people who openly admit to being Christian dislike the Chantry, but then, I haven't seen many people openly admit to being Christian aside from a few isolated threads.

 

Myself, I separate the larger Chantry from the Templar/Circle issue. I think the Chantry suffers from the problem the medieval church did of becoming too large and too bureaucratic. More prone to being a political entity than a religious one, and as such, it has more divisions than it needs and not all of them know what the rest of it is doing and not all of the divisions are in accord with one another.

 

But what I think of the Chantry has nothing to do with my beliefs in reality. The two things aren't even in the same ballpark. Thedas is just one more of the fantasy worlds I enjoy, and the Chantry is part of its mythology, no more or less.

 

I just don't understand how people can so rabidly spend so much energy hating something that's so not real.

 

See, that's exactly what it's about. I think there's real value in directing this thread specifically to the atheist players because we often have to prove that our views of the Chantry aren't influenced by our real world atheism, or people tend to just discard our opinions. 

 

I'm not saying that there aren't atheist players who dislike the Chantry because it's a religious institution, because those people exist and have a right to feel that way. But I think most of us try to separate our real world beliefs from our in game beliefs. Just as I'm sure that religious players tend to do.

 

I love the lore surrounding the Chantry, I love the work and detail they've put into it. But that doesn't change the fact that I find the Chantry to be an abusive organization that lost it's way a long time ago. And no, I don't separate the mage/templar conflict from the Chantry, because the Templars are a part of the Chantry and are supposed to be under the command of the Divine. But that's an entirely different discussion and let's not go there: that subject is dark and full of terrors. 


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#108
PsychoBlonde

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Overall, I'm pretty split on it. I think the Chantry is a lot more complex than religions IRL, but I don't believe they have all the answers like they think they do, either.

 

This made me laugh.   Nothing in fiction is more complex than real life. Nothing.  That is, in fact, the purpose of fiction--to take real life, *distill* it, pull out a few essentials, and display them in a concrete form.  It is the flip side of the process of abstraction.

 

The Chantry is, in many ways, the flip side of RL religions.  RL religions make definite claims about unprovable ideas, e.g. "god wants you to do this or you'll go to hell" or "martyrs get 72 virgins in heaven".  The Chantry makes unproven claims about definite events "The darkspawn were caused by the Magisters sinning against the Maker" or "the Maker abandoned the world when Andraste was martyred".  These are VERY different things because the Chantry's claims are subject to investigation and demonstration.  They can only be stretched so far before someone will have to say "you're right, broad metaphor or not, that's nothing like what actually happened".  No claims about god or hell can be investigated or demonstrated (although many of the more naive sort of religionists believe or claim otherwise--right up until you challenge them to do so).

 

From an epistemological perspective, the Chantry religion *is* secular.  Its teachings derive from real-world (i.e. secular) events (the darkspawn, Andraste) and have a real-world purpose: saving people from the depredations of mages, the darkspawn, and the numerous other troubles of the world so the Maker forgives people and comes back.

So, yeah, as an atheist I'm generally indifferent to the Chantry.  It doesn't represent the kind of epistemological assault that RL religion does.  It is more like a political party or ideological movement than a religion.  That doesn't mean that its ideology is a good one or even particularly well-thought-out, but at present the only competing *ideologies* in Thedas are, in no particular order: "Mages Are The Master Race" and the totalitarian slavery of the Qun.  So, yeah, until there's another ideological contender, I'm sticking with the Chantry.  At least you can *argue* with them.



#109
Barquiel

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neutral

Most chantry clerics/revered mothers we meet in the games are actually decent/reasonable people (with some exceptions though) who want to help, but I can't say the same about their army...



#110
Ianamus

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I feel no differently about it than any other fictional religion. It may or may or may not be "real" in the setting, so my opinion on real-life religion is irrelevant. 

 

I do tend to dislike organized religion and religious bodies in the real world or modern settings, but in fantasy settings they are usually fine. The Chantry is pretty tolerant of sexuality/ethnicity/gender and such, so I don't take any offense to it. 



#111
Lukas Trevelyan

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I find the idea of comparing real life religion to a fiction one to be quite... inappropriate first of all but I want to state my opinion regarding this, as a muslim.

 I have a firm belief God exists and naturally it sorta reflects onto my character in-game.

That said chantry laws ingame are fiction and they're written by human beings (DA's writers) opposed to real life religion that came from God (from a believers POV, an atheist might not understand and I mean no offence), which inclines me to judge the chantry as a whole, indescribably differently. There are laws that are actually quite appalling and some zealots are beyond insane (Sister Petrice, her actions were borderline unacceptable) it's scary how one can even see their cause as just. There is corruption in the chantry and I want to (with the assistance of those who agree) to remove that corruption. In the setting unless a divine intervention happens, it'll never be perfect. However like I said before in game my character believes that there is a god and the chantry satisfies his religious needs the most. 

Again, this is just far too fictional to be compared to real life and from my perspective unlike the religion I in reality follow that I see to have no flaws this chantry has numerous flaws and missing teachings so I treat it more or less as a politic and a fictional one at that! :P

EDIT: rewording.



#112
Reaverwind

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@Ynqve

 

I haven't seen many people who openly admit to being Christian dislike the Chantry, but then, I haven't seen many people openly admit to being Christian aside from a few isolated threads.

 

 

 

Openly "admit"? Are we to assume being a Christian is a bad thing, now?



#113
franciscoamell

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I kinda hate it tbh,



#114
Master Warder Z_

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I kinda hate it tbh,

 

I'm sure the feeling is mutual.


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#115
Br3admax

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I'm sure the feeling is mutual.

Don't be silly. The Maker teaches forgiveness. 



#116
Medhia_Nox

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It's less that people hate the Chantry specifically because they're atheist - but that atheists have a tendency to be predisposed to seeing the qualities the Chantry portrays in their own specific perspective (which often is negative).  It's not uncommon - atheists think they're absolutely right and everyone else is just ignorant to the truth.  It's just humans picking a newer clique. 

 

The Chantry isn't trying to protecting the common people... they're oppressing minorities just like religions in the real world do!  Anyone who makes a connection to real world religions is asserting their bias - and anyone who studies the Chantry solely based on it's fantasy merits and flaws, cannot do so without either conceding the flaws of all organizations on Thedas or blindly ignoring the terrible transgressions of their pet favorite.

 

What I would be more interested in - is finding out why people who claim it's not their real world bias - don't make a thousand threads about the evils of Tevinter, or the Wardens, or the Crows.  No.. THOSE people have valid reasons for oppression, murder and subversion.


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#117
mikeymoonshine

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It's a point that people like Dawkins and Hitchens have addressed before. The problem with the word agnostic is that covers a wide spectrum from those who feel there is a 50/50 chance of a deity and those who feel the probability is so small as to be negligible. For me the word atheist is more useful for those at the latter end of that spectrum, even though strictly speaking I'm an 'extreme' agnostic in that sense.

 

Oh I agree, I wasn't having a go at people who choose to define themselves as agnostic. I just wanted to point out that being an atheist doesn't mean you are taking a gnostic position. You can be an atheist and an agnostic at the same time and most atheists are both. 


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#118
OctagonalSquare

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I'd say Andrastianism is better than most real religions. The Maker is still a pisspoor excuse for a god, though.

 

I'm more of an apatheist when it come to DA.



#119
Dean_the_Young

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At the OP's question-

 

I think the Chantry gets a surprisingly generous take from the Devs- certainly much, much kinder than what it easily could have been.

 

While it's clear that the Devs have never intended the Chantry to be flawless or universally beloved, they deliberately and greatly avoided a common trope of 'the church of evil,' in which the organized religion of X controls people by superstition to the public detriment and the church's own interest. Quite often organized religions are neutral at best, malevolent at worst, and almost unfailingly opposed to rationalism in favor of superstitious (and ultiamtely baseless) fears.

 

While myth and superstition do factor into the Chantry, instead of baseless fears and stigmas the Devs gave the Chantry real and credible fears, with real and rational basis for their actions. The Chantry is in many respects the primary international security establishment for Thedas, a sort of more-capable UN which organizes collective efforts, collective defense, and mediation efforts across most of Thedas. It manages real security and safety concerns in the form of the Circles (even if it comes down more on the side of a security state than maximizing human freedom regardless of cost), it organizes international coalitions against real military threats to common security and freedom, and it's a key legitimate actor and moral authority whose presence and words are shown to temper many actors.

 

As far as the religious behavior and doctrine go, the Chantry is about as kind and gentle as any major religion ever gets. Conversion is voluntary, with most negative pressures being from the lower level rather than condoned by the clergy, heretics and dissent are allowed (if not enabled), the only two known cases of religious purging/cultural genocide were in direct response to major wars seen as unilaterally started by the other religion (and even then heathens were given the choice to recant their professed beliefs and keep their heads low and on their shoulders), and there's no meaningful history of the Chantry itself spreading the Chant by the sword. (The Orlais Empire under Drakon One is a related, but ultimately separate, entity.) Radical clergy are broadly kept in hand, the leadership maintains a healthy cadre of idealist individuals in senior leadership positions to balance the pragmatic security concerns, and the Chantry's military arm has an exceptionally notable public reputations thanks to providing public security services aside their own task-specific duties.

 

There's plenty within all that to take issue with, to be sure, but the Chantry is about as beneficial as any organized religion or ideology can be. It can honestly be described as well-intentioned and providing real benefits for most of the populace under its influence- despite being in a crapsack world and facing many real and exceptional dangers that could easily justify a much, much darker and cynical take. It's also helpful that most of the Chantry's worst actions, complicit or otherwise- historic issues such as the fall of the Dales or the Qunari invasions are not even in living memory, let alone the current context of the institution.

 

The Chantry has a better historical rap sheet than most real world institutions, including most western governments, while its current iteration is close to ideals of enlightened self-interest: it's interests are closely aligned with peace, stability, and even being open to reform.

 

That's a very generous depiction, and not one the writers had to offer it at all.


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#120
Seraphim24

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Technically I guess I'm like agnostic, but yeah the chantry is horrible, worst part of DA IMO. Well, Meredith was ok, at least she had some guts.



#121
X Equestris

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Openly "admit"? Are we to assume being a Christian is a bad thing, now?


It is often a dangerous thing to admit on the internet. I can attest to that personally.
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#122
SmilesJA

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@Ynqve

 

I haven't seen many people who openly admit to being Christian dislike the Chantry, but then, I haven't seen many people openly admit to being Christian aside from a few isolated threads.

 

Myself, I separate the larger Chantry from the Templar/Circle issue. I think the Chantry suffers from the problem the medieval church did of becoming too large and too bureaucratic. More prone to being a political entity than a religious one, and as such, it has more divisions than it needs and not all of them know what the rest of it is doing and not all of the divisions are in accord with one another.

 

But what I think of the Chantry has nothing to do with my beliefs in reality. The two things aren't even in the same ballpark. Thedas is just one more of the fantasy worlds I enjoy, and the Chantry is part of its mythology, no more or less.

 

I just don't understand how people can so rabidly spend so much energy hating something that's so not real.

 

Discussing religion on the internet tends to lead to flame wars of epic proportions. I've witnessed them myself.



#123
Mistic

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While myth and superstition do factor into the Chantry, instead of baseless fears and stigmas the Devs gave the Chantry real and credible fears, with real and rational basis for their actions. The Chantry is in many respects the primary international security establishment for Thedas, a sort of more-capable UN which organizes collective efforts, collective defense, and mediation efforts across most of Thedas. It manages real security and safety concerns in the form of the Circles (even if it comes down more on the side of a security state than maximizing human freedom regardless of cost), it organizes international coalitions against real military threats to common security and freedom, and it's a key legitimate actor and moral authority whose presence and words are shown to temper many actors.

 

That's an interesting take on the Chantry, although maybe a too sugary one. After all, the only known international organization that takes measures against common threats against the world are the Grey Wardens. The international coalitions organized by the Chantry were used twice in regional conflicts (Dales versus Orlais, Free Marches versus Tevinter), four times against a non-expanding power, just because they broke from the Orlesian Chantry (Exalted Marches against Tevinter) and only three against the Qunari invasion. "Common" means just "White Chantry Andrastians", and that as long as it doesn't hurt Orlesian interests.

 

However, the Circle argument is a sound one, and it was supposedly the reason the Inquisition disbanded in the first place, because they believed the Chantry could provide a better service.


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#124
veeia

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Andrastrianism has a lot of hella cool stuff about it. Chantry does a lot of good but can't balance out the bad so it can suck an egg, mostly. So....really not too different from how I view irl religions, tbh. 

 

But when I play, I'm not interested in making value judgments. I'm interested in exploring narrative opportunities, and how a character interacts with religion is a huge narrative opportunity. It's gonna vary drastically from character to character, but I do love playing devout Andrastians as well as delving into the religious traditions of Dalish elves & dwarves. 


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#125
DalishRanger

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My real life atheism affects little to how I view the Chantry, beyond that I am, by default, wary of organized religions with buttloads of power. I doubt the Chantry has all the answers - I don't think anyone in Thedas does, and that's what makes it interesting. Though how much I believe they're right about the Maker or Andraste does go back and forth, depending on what character I'm playing. For instance, my canon Warden is a devout, though not super pious, Andrastean. During his plays I feel moved by the more religious or spiritual scenes and tend to feel gracious towards most priests and affirmed. By contrast, my casteless dwarf sees it as another powerful organization abusing its influence and loves tweaking their noses or finding Andrastean beliefs odd. At the same time, he does have some belief in the Stone, though he finds the casteless being disconnected from it utterly absurd.

 

Same applies to my Hakes; some were devout, some were believers but passive, some really didn't care one way or the other - don't think any of them were outright atheistic.

 

There are also members of the Chantry I adore (Leliana) and those I hate (Petrice); it mostly comes down to whether or not they come off as decent people at their core, regardless of how religious they are. Believers do not by default bother me - but I have little patience for zealots. Not that far off from how I feel in real life, come to think of it.

 

EDIT:

 

But when I play, I'm not interested in making value judgments. I'm interested in exploring narrative opportunities, and how a character interacts with religion is a huge narrative opportunity. It's gonna vary drastically from character to character, but I do love playing devout Andrastians as well as delving into the religious traditions of Dalish elves & dwarves. 

 

Pretty much this.