201 réponses à ce sujet

[Killdren88]

Say Howe didn't betray the Couslands and they got to be around for the game. Would had Bryce been in opposition against Loghian's claim to the Throne? Or would he have believed Loghian's lie of the Grey Wardens.

[ShadowLordXII]

Say Howe didn't betray the Couslands and they got to be around for the game. Would had Bryce been in opposition against Loghian's claim to the Throne? Or would he have believed Loghian's lie of the Grey Wardens.

 

I doubt that Bryce would believe Loghain.

 

Also, with no heir for Cailan, it's pretty likely that plenty in the Landsmeet would want to make Bryce king instead. It is mentioned that some wanted Bryce to be king after Maric died, but Bryce declined and Cailan succeeded his father. No Cailan or an heir for Cailan means that the throne is up for whoever can get enough support behind them.

 

Sooner or later, someone who chant, "I'll bend only to Bryce! The King in the North!" Then more would join in and Loghain/Anora would have a serious rival.

[BronzTrooper]

Doubtful, since it seems like Bryce Cousland and Duncan are friendly in the human noble origin.  But then, I haven't played as a human noble in a while, so I might be remembering wrong.

 

But besides that, Bryce had a chance to be king after Maric died, but he refused, leaving Cailan to become king.  To me, this shows that he believes that only a descendant of Calenhad should rule Ferelden.  He would likely be one of the many nobles that sided against Loghain, possibly spearheading the opposition.  That in addition to the fact that the Cousland line is second only to Ferelden's royalty in political power could be part of the reason why Howe decided to betray the Cousland family.  Well, that and Howe's insatiable greed, of course.  I mean, not only is he arl of Amaranthine, he takes over Castle Cousland to become teryn of Highever and is soon after made arl of Denerim by Loghain.  3 titles of importance for one man?  Seriously, he's almost as bad as the Dovahkiin in Skyrim.  

[Lilaeth]

Bryce would stand with the Theirin heir.  That would not be Loghain/Anora.

[Elhanan]

Personally, I am somewhat under the belief that if Howe had been replaced with Bryce, that Loghain would have made far different choices, at least in part. One of the failings that Loghain seemed to make was in allowing Howe to remain as an advisor and confidant.

[Icy Magebane]

With Cailan dead, I don't see what would prevent Bryce from accepting rulership of Ferelden.  In fact, that's probably why he was assassinated in the first place.

[Dabrikishaw]

I think he'd stand against him. I see him acting like Teagan in regards to Loghan really.

[X Equestris]

The real question is "Would he still be alive at that point?" Remember that Bryce and Howe were going to be leading their men south the next day. He might have died at Ostagar.

If he were still alive, I doubt he would have stood by Loghain if there were a Theirin heir.

[Sifr]

If Bryce either arrived too late to the battle or managed to survive Ostagar, I could see him standing against Loghain and wanting to bring him to justice for the death of the King. I think he's probably progressive enough to support Alistair's claim to the throne as well, despite his illegitimacy.

[X Equestris]

If Bryce either arrived too late to the battle or managed to survive Ostagar, I could see him standing against Loghain and wanting to bring him to justice for the death of the King. I think he's probably progressive enough to support Alistair's claim to the throne as well, despite his illegitimacy.

Considering that Bryce is very much a royalist, I think he would support Alistair, since he is the last of Calenhad's line.

[Dova]

Dern sure think that Bryce would of supported Alistair and stood against Loghain.

[Kenshen]

With Cailan dead, I don't see what would prevent Bryce from accepting rulership of Ferelden.  In fact, that's probably why he was assassinated in the first place.

 

I always thought the same thing.  If he didn't take over rule of the land I believe he would have supported Alistair.

[Icy Magebane]

I always thought the same thing.  If he didn't take over rule of the land I believe he would have supported Alistair.

Yes, I believe that Loghain conspired with Howe to destroy the Couslands in the same way that he arranged to have Eamon poisoned... he was probably expecting to have to deal with civil unrest and possibly even a civil war once he attempted to claim the regency.  The less powerful noblemen left standing to challenge his claim to the throne, the better his chances would be to keep it.  Obviously admitting such a thing to any version of the Warden would have been a bad idea, so I think it's reasonable to conclude that he was involved but wisely kept silent.

 

However, it does seem that Bryce never wanted more power, so he probably would have supported Alistair once he appeared... the only issue is that Alistair didn't want to be King at all and only agreed after putting up heavy resistance.  Even then, he had to be convinced that there was no other option (less resistance if hardened, but it was still there).  I am not sure what path would have been chosen if Bryce, Eamon, and Alistair sat down and talked about it...

[Mike3207]

Bryce was a big supporter of the royal line but he would also wanted stronger proof. It's not enough that Alistair looked like Maric, he would have wanted a letter Maric had written or some concrete evidence that he was Maric's child.

 

If Eamon hadn't been able to produce that evidence, he would have held his nose and supported Loghain/Anora.

[gottaloveme]

I posted this opinion before (but as I am somewhat opinionated, I will do it again).   Bryce would support Ferelden. He wouldn't support Loghain perse but he would make no small effort to halt the civil war and tend to the blight. He would then deal with Loghain when the dust had settled.

[bazzag]

Bryce would never stand with Loghain. He was loyal to the crown to the end. If anything, if Bryce had lived, the civil war would be between loghain and bryce, seeming as the teyrns are second only to royalty

[bazzag]

Personally, I am somewhat under the belief that if Howe had been replaced with Bryce, that Loghain would have made far different choices, at least in part. One of the failings that Loghain seemed to make was in allowing Howe to remain as an advisor and confidant.

 

I agree. Personally i get the feeling that really it was Howe who orchestrated it. He was bitter over how his family was rewarded and treated by Maric following the Orlesian occupation, and his words were poison. Considering how paranoid Loghain was over the Orlesians plotting to retake Fereldan with the grey wardens help, it wouldn't take much persuasion from Howe to persuade Loghain. With Howe in Loghains ear, it was the perfect place for him to get all the power he needed. If Alistair had never survived, and there was no blight, and Loghain succeeded in taking the throne, I would expect that at some point loghain would be found with a dagger in his back and Howe would seize control

[Sifr]

I agree. Personally i get the feeling that really it was Howe who orchestrated it. He was bitter over how his family was rewarded and treated by Maric following the Orlesian occupation, and his words were poison. Considering how paranoid Loghain was over the Orlesians plotting to retake Fereldan with the grey wardens help, it wouldn't take much persuasion from Howe to persuade Loghain. With Howe in Loghains ear, it was the perfect place for him to get all the power he needed. If Alistair had never survived, and there was no blight, and Loghain succeeded in taking the throne, I would expect that at some point loghain would be found with a dagger in his back and Howe would seize control

 

Loghain's biggest failure was allying with Howe and letting him run roughshod.

 

It's always seemed far more likely to me that Howe was the true mastermind and conspirator behind the things Loghain is often blamed for, such as Eamon's (failed) assassination, the death of the Cousland's during the Highever massacre, the Alienage massacre, as well as hiring assassins such as the Antivan Crows and bringing in Tevinter slavers. It seems far more in keeping with his style than Loghain, as Loghain at least appears to still have some semblance of honour left in him, despite his abandonment of the King at Ostagar and actions afterwards.

 

I don't think that Loghain wanted Bryce Cousland dead, but he knew that he'd pose a problem because Bryce was an ardent royalist who'd have never tolerated the regicide of King Cailain (idiot though he was) and was as powerful an enemy as Eamon to have against him in the Landsmeet. Plus it probably was a sore spot for Loghain that Bryce had fought in Maric Rebellion, yet was known for having friendly visits to Orlais and had a "War's long done, we're all just folk now" approach when it came to their former occupiers.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bryce would stand with the Theirin heir.  That would not be Loghain/Anora.

Considering that Alistair was apparently never acknowledged, plus the fact that he's a bastard, saying that Alistair is Maric's true heir might be a tough sell. (Ceorlic says in the Gnawed Noble that it's better for the Mac Tirs to get the throne than a bastard, and isn't challenged by his conversational partner. Said partner had in fact brought up this line of discussion by noting that giving the throne to a bastard is an "ill precedent.")

 

 

I don't think that Loghain wanted Bryce Cousland dead, but he knew that he'd pose a problem because Bryce was an ardent royalist who'd have never tolerated the regicide of King Cailain (idiot though he was) and was as powerful an enemy as Eamon to have against him in the Landsmeet. Plus it probably was a sore spot for Loghain that Bryce had fought in Maric Rebellion, yet was known for having friendly visits to Orlais and had a "War's long done, we're all just folk now" approach when it came to their former occupiers.

I'd thought that Gaider said that Loghain had taken a "what's done is done" approach to Bryce's death, rather than having signed off on it.

[Aimi]

Loghain's biggest failure was allying with Howe and letting him run roughshod.
 
It's always seemed far more likely to me that Howe was the true mastermind and conspirator behind the things Loghain is often blamed for, [...]

Perhaps.

But it's often useful for leaders who want to do nasty things to have subordinates on whom they can pin these nasty things. That way, they can throw the subordinates to the wolves at an appropriate time and emerge with clean reputations. History is littered with such examples.

There's no direct mention of Howe in relationship to the Redcliffe plot, nor in the Tevinter slavery operation in Denerim. It does not strain credulity to imagine that he was somehow involved; positing that it was nefarious Howe manipulating Loghain into doing both of those things, however, must remain in the realm of headcanon, as there is simply zero evidence for it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Perhaps.

But it's often useful for leaders who want to do nasty things to have subordinates on whom they can pin these nasty things. That way, they can throw the subordinates to the wolves at an appropriate time and emerge with clean reputations. History is littered with such examples.

There's no direct mention of Howe in relationship to the Redcliffe plot, nor in the Tevinter slavery operation in Denerim. It does not strain credulity to imagine that he was somehow involved; positing that it was nefarious Howe manipulating Loghain into doing both of those things, however, must remain in the realm of headcanon, as there is simply zero evidence for it.

Berwick defends himself by claiming to have been employed by a man who claimed to be employed by Rendon Howe. That's not sufficient evidence to be sure (in fact, since we're trusting both Berwick's word and that of the possibly nonexistent buffer, it's actually pretty weak evidence), but it's more than zero.

[Elhanan]

Perhaps.

But it's often useful for leaders who want to do nasty things to have subordinates on whom they can pin these nasty things. That way, they can throw the subordinates to the wolves at an appropriate time and emerge with clean reputations. History is littered with such examples.

There's no direct mention of Howe in relationship to the Redcliffe plot, nor in the Tevinter slavery operation in Denerim. It does not strain credulity to imagine that he was somehow involved; positing that it was nefarious Howe manipulating Loghain into doing both of those things, however, must remain in the realm of headcanon, as there is simply zero evidence for it.

Though true, Howe was named as the new Arl of Denerim, and seemed to control the Alienage and the prison. Even if there is no direct link mentioned, it would be his and Loghain's roles as authorities to be responsible for those atrocities.

[BioWareM0d13]

Against.

 

The Couslands had a reputation for being very loyal to the crown. That's ultimately why Howe's treason ends up sanctioned by Loghain. 

[Aimi]

Berwick defends himself by claiming to have been employed by a man who claimed to be employed by Rendon Howe. That's not sufficient evidence to be sure (in fact, since we're trusting both Berwick's word and that of the possibly nonexistent buffer, it's actually pretty weak evidence), but it's more than zero.

 
No, it is zero, because Howe isn't named, and it is nowhere stated or even implied that Howe is the only man to whom Loghain actually gives orders. That doesn't qualify as "direct mention" for any English definition of the word "direct".
 

Though true, Howe was named as the new Arl of Denerim, and seemed to control the Alienage and the prison. Even if there is no direct link mentioned, it would be his and Loghain's roles as authorities to be responsible for those atrocities.

That's certainly possible, yes. Like I said, it doesn't strain credulity to suggest that Howe was somehow involved in those plots. It does strain credulity to take Howe, who is never directly fingered as responsible for either of them by any character in the game, and serve him up as the 'true' mastermind operating behind Loghain's back, when Loghain was fingered as responsible by characters in the game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

 
No, it is zero, because Howe isn't named, and it is nowhere stated or even implied that Howe is the only man to whom Loghain actually gives orders. That doesn't qualify as "direct mention" for any English definition of the word "direct".

https://www.youtube....h?v=uwhvLwJfl64

 

I forget how to make it start directly on the relevant bit, so skip to 57 seconds.