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[BronzTrooper]

Loghain's biggest failure was allying with Howe and letting him run roughshod.

 

It's always seemed far more likely to me that Howe was the true mastermind and conspirator behind the things Loghain is often blamed for, such as Eamon's (failed) assassination, the death of the Cousland's during the Highever massacre, the Alienage massacre, as well as hiring assassins such as the Antivan Crows and bringing in Tevinter slavers. It seems far more in keeping with his style than Loghain, as Loghain at least appears to still have some semblance of honour left in him, despite his abandonment of the King at Ostagar and actions afterwards.

 

Howe was indeed responsible for the attack on Castle Cousland, declaring a purge on the alienage in Denerim (which the average citizen in Denerim wouldn't really care about), and hiring the Crows to kill the Warden, but he wasn't responsible for the Tevinter slavers in the alienage after the purge.  That was Loghain and he rationalized it by saying that he needed the money the slavers paid him to support his armies.  The poisoning of Eamon is tricky, however.  Berwick says that he was hired by an agent of Howe's and Anora says that it was likely that Howe orchestrated the whole thing, but it was Jowan who actually poisoned Eamon and he was hired by Loghain directly.  I'm leaning towards it being Howe's plan simply because I don't think Loghain is the type of person who would resort to poisoning Eamon.  Plus, with the Warden saving Eamon, Loghain can deny responsibility for the poisoning in the first place, even with Jowan's confession that Loghain had hired him.

[Aimi]

https://www.youtube....h?v=uwhvLwJfl64
 
I forget how to make it start directly on the relevant bit, so skip to 57 seconds.

Interesting. Thanks. It's a little embarrassing to have forgotten that, since I just played it a few days ago. My bad.

That certainly makes Howe a lot more relevant to Redcliffe than I'd been saying earlier. Like you said, it's not ironclad or anything, but it's also obviously nonzero.

[Sifr]

 
 That's certainly possible, yes. Like I said, it doesn't strain credulity to suggest that Howe was somehow involved in those plots. It does strain credulity to take Howe, who is never directly fingered as responsible for either of them by any character in the game, and serve him up as the 'true' mastermind operating behind Loghain's back, when Loghain was fingered as responsible by characters in the game.

 

Not really, as we know that Loghain probably was aware or signed off on these things, but it seems far more in keeping with how Howe operates for him to have been orchestrating the details of those plans from behind the scenes. If people are blaming Loghain, that's because he's the most visible person that's doing things that are against Ferelden, whereas Howe is far more subtle and covert in how he takes people out.

 

Even Eamon notes that most of the plots probably had their roots in Howe's twisted little mind, a sentiment that Anora seems to share (her own bias and desire to protect her father, notwishstanding).

 

Howe's a conniving so-and-so, but he's not stupid enough to do anything that would probably get himself caught, without first having a good alibi. Heck, if you don't play the Human Noble storyline, he succeeded in his plan to leave no witnesses behind, leaving him free to tell any story he wished (which was that he gallantly prevented Bryce from conspiring with Orlais to usurp the crown).

[BioWareM0d13]

Loghain is an accessory in the murder of the Couslands. Whether or not he knew of it in advance, he benefited, and gave it official sanction after the fact by weighing Howe down with titles including the Teyrnir of Highever.

 

I've never played a Cousland that didn't separate Loghain's head from it's neck.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Howe's a conniving so-and-so, but he's not stupid enough to do anything that would probably get himself caught, without first having a good alibi. Heck, if you don't play the Human Noble storyline, he succeeded in his plan to leave no witnesses behind, leaving him free to tell any story he wished (which was that he gallantly prevented Bryce from conspiring with Orlais to usurp the crown).

I'm not so sure of any argument that depends on Howe's intelligence. He keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own home, including at least two of whom (Irminric and Vaughn) he was stupid to keep alive in the first place. He kidnaps and imprisons Vaughn under the guise of helping him and gives out that he was killed by those Howe wanted to save him from, which at the very best you could expect to cast doubt on his competence as a helper and at worst looks suspicious. He embezzles silver from the treasury in time of war. 

 

 

Loghain is an accessory in the murder of the Couslands. Whether or not he knew of it in advance, he benefited, and gave it official sanction after the fact by weighing Howe down with titles including the Teyrnir of Highever.

 

I've never played a Cousland that didn't separate Loghain's head from it's neck.

This, I think, is an entirely fair assessment.

[Icy Magebane]

Berwick defends himself by claiming to have been employed by a man who claimed to be employed by Rendon Howe. That's not sufficient evidence to be sure (in fact, since we're trusting both Berwick's word and that of the possibly nonexistent buffer, it's actually pretty weak evidence), but it's more than zero.

Berwick was only sent to keep watch on the castle though.  Jowan is the one who poisoned the Arl, and he said he did that on Loghain's orders... he never mentioned Howe.  I am convinced that the two of them planned all of this together, but Loghain only admitted to the things that the Warden proved he had a hand in. 

 

As for the rest of the discussion here, I think it's kind of unrealistic to assume that Loghain wasn't behind the majority of Howe's actions.  He may not have kept track of every person locked up in Howe's dungeon, but he most certainly knew about the Cousland massacre.  Even if Loghain first learned of it at Ostaggar (which I doubt), how do we explain the fact that he never punished Howe for killing his "friend" and his "friend's" entire family without his permission?  Just how many unauthorized mass murders would Howe have had to order before Loghain re-evaluated his choice in advisors?  I don't see Loghain hearing about these events after the fact and allowing Howe to continue putting his plans at risk in a series of obvious power grabs.  No intelligent ruler would allow a person who's that much of a loose cannon to hold any amount of authority for long.

[Sifr]

Howe was indeed responsible for the attack on Castle Cousland, declaring a purge on the alienage in Denerim (which the average citizen in Denerim wouldn't really care about), and hiring the Crows to kill the Warden, but he wasn't responsible for the Tevinter slavers in the alienage after the purge.

 

Howe is the new Arl of Denerim, resides in the Estate within spitting distance of the Alienage that he controls and has already ordered one purge already. Are we supposed to believe that he's completely unaware of a Tevinter slaving business operating out of his own holdings, on his own doorstep?

 

Howe definitely knew about the slavers.

 

It's also worth nothing that in the Landsmeet when you confront Loghain on this, he only admits to having used the money to refund the treasury and help rebuild the army. He never says that he was involved in setting up the slaving operation itself.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Howe is the new Arl of Denerim, resides in the Estate within spitting distance of the Alienage that he controls and has already ordered one purge already. Are we supposed to believe that he's completely unaware of a Tevinter slaving business operating out of his own holdings, on his own doorstep?

 

Howe definitely knew about the slavers.

 

It's also worth nothing that in the Landsmeet when you confront Loghain on this, he only admits to having used the money to refund the treasury and help rebuild the army. He never says that he was involved in setting up the slaving operation itself.

Caladrius flat out tells you that Loghain directly dealt with him and that he (Caladrius) has proof. When he hands you the "proof," The Warden doesn't accuse him of lying. That's pretty close to proof that Loghain was directly involved with Caladrius, though whether or not he was involved at the setting up stage I couldn't tell you.

[Icy Magebane]

Howe is the new Arl of Denerim, resides in the Estate within spitting distance of the Alienage that he controls and has already ordered one purge already. Are we supposed to believe that he's completely unaware of a Tevinter slaving business operating out of his own holdings, on his own doorstep?

 

Howe definitely knew about the slavers.

 

It's also worth nothing that in the Landsmeet when you confront Loghain on this, he only admits to having used the money to refund the treasury and help rebuild the army. He never says that he was involved in setting up the slaving operation itself.

What kind of a criminal admits to wrongdoing?  It's up to the prosecutor to prove you are guilty...  Loghain only confessing to spending the money isn't enough to cast down on his further involvement.

[Sifr]

Caladrius flat out tells you that Loghain directly dealt with him and that he (Caladrius) has proof. When he hands you the "proof," The Warden doesn't accuse him of lying. That's pretty close to proof that Loghain was directly involved with Caladrius, though whether or not he was involved at the setting up stage I couldn't tell you.

 

I'm not doubting that Loghain knew of and probably dealt with the slavers, but it doesn't strike me as likely that he set it up. While Caladrius offers proof of his involvement in the form of receipts, all that proves is that Loghain used the profits from the sale of slaves to refill Ferelden's coffers, which he doesn't deny.

 

What kind of a criminal admits to wrongdoing?  It's up to the prosecutor to prove you are guilty...  Loghain only confessing to spending the money isn't enough to cast down on his further involvement.

 

Except most criminals when caught bang to rights having been involved in a slaving operation, would probably deny it or claim that the proof was fabricated by Eamon in order to sow distrust and incite sedition. Loghain does neither of these things, instead he comes clean and admits that he did use the money from slaves to help the war effort.

 

And while the Landsmeet do enforce and create the laws governing Ferelden, it isn't actually a court of law. There is not a formal trial, instead the matter is dealt with in a trial by combat and after Loghain loses, the nobles are perfectly willing to let the Warden execute him for his crimes.

 

The proof providing and his admitting to taking money from slaving was enough to earn him a sentence of execution anyway, so why sugar-coat it and lie about being more involved than that? Loghain had already damned himself and was already screwed when he fessed up, surely?

[Icy Magebane]

Except most criminals when caught bang to rights having been involved in a slaving operation, would probably deny it or claim that the proof was fabricated by Eamon in order to sow distrust and incite sedition. Loghain does neither of these things, instead he comes clean and admits that he did use the money from slaves to help the war effort.

 

And while the Landsmeet do enforce and create the laws governing Ferelden, it isn't actually a court of law. There is not a formal trial, instead the matter is dealt with in a trial by combat and after Loghain loses, the nobles are perfectly willing to let the Warden execute him for his crimes.

 

The proof providing and his admitting to taking money from slaving was enough to earn him a sentence of execution anyway, so why sugar-coat it and lie about being more involved than that? Loghain had already damned himself and was already screwed when he fessed up, surely?

If Loghain had admitted to all of his crimes and then won the duel, his reputation would have been so tarnished that he'd eventually be declared unfit to rule and deposed.  There is no reason to admit to crimes up to and including ordering a series of mass murders when he had a chance to blame it all on Howe.  He flat out admits that he never even expected the Warden to win that duel... should he have confessed to everything afterward, since at that point his life actually was forfeit?  Because before that, he had a good shot at survival...

[BronzTrooper]

Howe is the new Arl of Denerim, resides in the Estate within spitting distance of the Alienage that he controls and has already ordered one purge already. Are we supposed to believe that he's completely unaware of a Tevinter slaving business operating out of his own holdings, on his own doorstep?

 

Howe definitely knew about the slavers.

 

It's also worth nothing that in the Landsmeet when you confront Loghain on this, he only admits to having used the money to refund the treasury and help rebuild the army. He never says that he was involved in setting up the slaving operation itself.

 

I never said that he didn't know about it.  I would be surprised if he didn't know about it, tbh.  By 'responsible', I meant that Loghain had arranged the deal with the slavers.  Also, as it been stated, Loghain admitting to making the deal with Caladrius in the first place would've only hurt his case.

[Killdren88]

Loghain is an accessory in the murder of the Couslands. Whether or not he knew of it in advance, he benefited, and gave it official sanction after the fact by weighing Howe down with titles including the Teyrnir of Highever.

 

I've never played a Cousland that didn't separate Loghain's head from it's neck.

 

I always give that honor to Alistair. But Howe is mine...

[TheMadHarridan]

I think Bryce would have been 100 percent against Loghain, taking more of a Teagan-like approach to the situation. As for whether or not he would support Alistair for the throne... I honestly don't know. True, the Couslands are ardent royalists, but the only thing Bryce would have "proving" that Alistair is Maric's son would be Eamon's word, and I'm not certain that would be enough for him.

 

If the Cousland massacre hadn't happened, I would have loved the option for my Warden to throw all of her/his support behind Bryce as the best candidate for the throne. Bryce was intelligent, kind, level-headed, and he would have had the backing of most of the nobles in the Landsmeet. He would have been the best ruler for Fereldan, in my opinion. Stupid Howe.  

[Kenshen]

So is it ever stated when Eamon was actually poisioned?  I have always been confused when everything happens.  Do all the origins take place at the same time? By that is Jowan making his escape from the circle at the same time Howe attacks Highever, dwarf and elf stuff happening to?  I just find it hard to believe Howe would make his move against the Cousland's without having the support of someone else of higher rank.  Even with the blight there is no way he would get away with that unless he knew he was covered and since it is Loghain who takes him in it makes sense that he gave the green light.

 

One thing I had forgotten until I noticed it again last night was after the joining we are invited to the war council where Loghain's plan was to have his men light the beacon until Cailan changes that part of the plan.  Now the look Loghain gives tells me he already had decided not to join the fight.  There was no way to know that part of the plan would change and had it not it would have been the perfect setup for Loghain to take over without anyone questioning him about it.  With that in mind it doesn't make much sense to move against Bryce or Eamon.  

 

I am disappointed in myself for having played this game so many times that I had missed these connections until now.  Makes me wonder what else I am missing or just not understanding completely.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So is it ever stated when Eamon was actually poisioned?

I'm pretty sure Jowan explicitly cops to it.

[BronzTrooper]

I have always been confused when everything happens.  Do all the origins take place at the same time? By that is Jowan making his escape from the circle at the same time Howe attacks Highever, dwarf and elf stuff happening to?

 

All the origins do in fact take place, but I'm not entirely sure about the timing.  I know for a fact that the dwarf commoner origin takes place a week before the dwarf noble origin, but other than that?  idk.  I'd assume that the timing for them is a bit staggered, considering how they all end with Duncan taking you to Ostagar and arriving at about the same time regardless of the origin.  I'd assume it would take about a week to travel from Denerim to Ostagar, 4-5 days from the Brecilian Forest, maybe a week and a half from Highever, possibly 8-9 days from Orzammar, and possibly 5-6 days from the Circle.  tbh, I'm just guesstimating, but they seem reasonable for Duncan plus the Warden to travel.

[Kenshen]

I'm pretty sure Jowan explicitly cops to it.

 

Yeah I know he did it but my question is when did he do it, was it before or after Ostagar.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah I know he did it but my question is when did he do it, was it before or after Ostagar.  

He doesn't say when he started, I think.

[theskymoves]

It's difficult to construct a reasonable timeline for the poisoning that accomodates what we are told, in game.

 

We first learn that Eamon is ill in Lothering, from either from gossip (IIRC) or from Ser Donall, who is searching for the ashes. Copy/pasta from the toolset, with some bolding for emphasis...

 

Ser Donall: The arl is stricken with an illness that threatens his life. We have found no cure, either natural or magical.
Alistair: When did this happen?
Ser Donall: Only a few weeks ago, but he has declined quickly. No one knows the nature of the illness, and even magic has done little to slow its progress. Our only hope now is a miracle. Every knight of Redcliffe has gone in search of the Urn of Sacred Ashes.

 

Which would seem to indicate that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar.

 

But what Jowan tells us clouds the matter. From the dialogue with dungeon!Jowan, again with the silly emphatic bolding...   

 

Warden: So Teyrn Loghain himself hired you?

Jowan: Yes, when the templars caught me, they brought me to Denerim to await execution. Eventually, someone came to see me, alone. It was the teyrn. I'd seen paintings of him so I knew. I thought he'd have me executed right there, but he said I could make up for my crime. He said I would be helping the country.

 

And now I forget what I meant to say... (Getting old sucks, let me tell you. )  Something about the distance from there and the other place, and the travel times. And either Loghain being in two places at once, or Duncan taking the scenic route to Ostagar (and stopping for ice cream on the way). /shuts up 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And now I forget what I meant to say... (Getting old sucks, let me tell you. )  Something about the distance from there and the other place, and the travel times. And either Loghain being in two places at once, or Duncan taking the scenic route to Ostagar (and stopping for ice cream on the way). 

Gaider seems to have implied it was the latter in the thread "The Complete Defense Of Loghain Mac Tir."

[theskymoves]

Gaider seems to have implied it was the latter in the thread "The Complete Defense Of Loghain Mac Tir."

 

I always suspected Duncan was a blue highways and ice cream  kind of guy.

[ShadowLordXII]

I always suspected Duncan was a blue highways and ice cream  kind of guy.

 

Ferelden is beautiful, why not take in some sights? It's like the darkspawn are going anywhere anytime soon right?

[DragonSailor]

Yeah I know he did it but my question is when did he do it, was it before or after Ostagar.  

 

The timing is tricky, since Jowan would have to escape the circle and then get recruited to poison the arl. However, it has to have been before Ostagar, because at Ostagar there is mention of waiting for Eamon to arrive. I believe Duncan asks Cailan to consider waiting for his uncle and Cailan says something like 'Eamon just wants in on the glory.' Furthermore, Eamon would have had to have fallen ill suddenly and not too in advance of the battle, or else someone would have sent word and no one would be expecting him for the battle. The timelines don't exactly match up since Isolde would have to be looking for a tutor at the exact same time and how would anyone know that? And yet, if Jowan had gotten there after Ostagar, Eamon would have left already, even if he never made it to Ostagar. He would have had to leave and come back and there is simply no mention of that at all. I can't recall any mention of the knights heading out for Ostagar at all and when you get to Lothering, the knights have already left on their quest.

 

It seems to me that this origin would have been one of the first to happen and Duncan would have had to take more than 5-6 days to get to Ostagar. I think whenever you travel in the game you go to the left - around the lake on the side of the Frostback Mountains- to get to Redcliffe, etc. so maybe that's the way Duncan traveled and why it would've taken so long. At least I can't recall ever going the other way. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. This also allows Jowan to be heading north to Denerim or even northeast without ever encountering the warden again.

 

If this is the case, then Howe was never really involved with Eamon's poisoning until after the fact because Howe and Loghain, while they may have been corresponding, don't meet up until Denerim, after the battle. In the human noble origin, you arrive to Ostagar before Howe and we never see Howe at Ostagar at all. If he showed up, he would have been held for questioning at least. Also, Cailan makes that comment about turning his armies north, making it seem like Howe is still up there, which makes sense when you consider he'd have to quell any resistance and put some cronies in place to lead while he's gone. That'd take time.

 

I had thought that maybe Jowan was caught on the way to Denerim and so wouldn't need to go all the way north, but if he says he was there and that's where he met Loghain... *shrugs* I guess it's just as possible that Loghain deposited him in Redcliffe on the way to Ostagar.

 

No idea when the Conner stuff happened though.

 

Anyway, it all just goes to show that Loghain abandoning Cailan was premeditated. There is no other way that the murder of the Couslands and the poisoning of Eamon would have worked. Loghain had to have been planning the coup for a while.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anyway, it all just goes to show that Loghain abandoning Cailan was premeditated. There is no other way that the murder of the Couslands and the poisoning of Eamon would have worked. Loghain had to have been planning the coup for a while.

Gaider's explanation: Loghain was planning to undercut Cailan's authority a lot starting shortly after Ostagar, though he wanted Cailan to live through it because he didn't hate the guy, and poisoned Eamon so that he wouldn't be able to act until everything was finished. The Couslands he simply had nothing to do with except as an after-the-fact accessory. Though this gets tricky depending on when he send Howe send that spy to Redcliffe.