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[DragonSailor]

Gaider's explanation: Loghain was planning to undercut Cailan's authority a lot starting shortly after Ostagar, though he wanted Cailan to live through it because he didn't hate the guy, and poisoned Eamon so that he wouldn't be able to act until everything was finished. The Couslands he simply had nothing to do with except as an after-the-fact accessory. Though this gets tricky depending on when he send Howe send that spy to Redcliffe.

 

I don't know if I buy that. No offense to Gaider, but that sounds like he wrote himself into a corner there and it was too late to change anything. If all that were true from the beginning, the writing should reflect that. I mean, was Eamon supposed to live through the poisoning too? If so, where was the cure? Why didn't Jowan or someone else have it? Just how long was Eamon supposed to be sick?

[BronzTrooper]

I don't know if I buy that. No offense to Gaider, but that sounds like he wrote himself into a corner there and it was too late to change anything. If all that were true from the beginning, the writing should reflect that. I mean, was Eamon supposed to live through the poisoning too? If so, where was the cure? Why didn't Jowan or someone else have it? Just how long was Eamon supposed to be sick?

 

I think that Berwick was at Redcliffe in order to keep an eye on Eamon's condition and if Eamon made a turn for the worse, Loghain might have tried to provide the cure for the poison before Eamon died, in which case he could be considered a hero for saving Eamon's life and thus condemning Jowan to death for attempted assassination.  And with how insignificant Jowan is compared to Loghain, the vast majority of Ferelden would be content with the story of Loghain saving Eamon's life.  But then, we don't know how any of the events in Redcliffe would have played out if the desire demon and the Warden hadn't interfered.

[gottaloveme]

All the origins do in fact take place, but I'm not entirely sure about the timing.  I know for a fact that the dwarf commoner origin takes place a week before the dwarf noble origin, but other than that?  idk.  I'd assume that the timing for them is a bit staggered, considering how they all end with Duncan taking you to Ostagar and arriving at about the same time regardless of the origin.  I'd assume it would take about a week to travel from Denerim to Ostagar, 4-5 days from the Brecilian Forest, maybe a week and a half from Highever, possibly 8-9 days from Orzammar, and possibly 5-6 days from the Circle.  tbh, I'm just guesstimating, but they seem reasonable for Duncan plus the Warden to travel.

 

if you talk to Dagna soon after you agree to go to the Circle on her behalf she will say that the shortest route from Orzammar to the Circle (one way) is over two weeks.

 

Also there is another thread (started by moi ) about distances called Doing the Math. There is a link there to an awesome blog regarding distances. Maybe I'll dig it up later.

 

ok - I brought the thread forward - the link is there from Theskymoves post

[BronzTrooper]

if you talk to Dagna soon after you agree to go to the Circle on her behalf she will say that the shortest route from Orzammar to the Circle (one way) is over two weeks.

 

Also there is another thread (started by moi ) about distances called Doing the Math. There is a link there to an awesome blog regarding distances. Maybe I'll dig it up later.

 

I forgot about that.  But then, you have to go through the Frostback Mountains and around the northern coast of Lake Calenhad to reach the Circle, which could probably have rougher terrain than going from Orzammar to Ostagar.  But then, Dagna could be referring to travel times for caravans, which tend to travel slower than a lone pair of travelers.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't know if I buy that. No offense to Gaider, but that sounds like he wrote himself into a corner there and it was too late to change anything. If all that were true from the beginning, the writing should reflect that. I mean, was Eamon supposed to live through the poisoning too? If so, where was the cure? Why didn't Jowan or someone else have it? Just how long was Eamon supposed to be sick?

Loghain had the cure, and was willing to send it when the minor coup was over or when Eamon had had all he could survive: whichever came first. Gaider says that's why Berwick was there: if Berwick had sent any information that suggested that Eamon could actually die, Loghain would have sent another agent to cure him. Of course, Loghain was aware that this could go wrong and end with Eamon's death, but if that happened it wouldn't have been the end of the world.

[Kenshen]

I don't know if I buy that. No offense to Gaider, but that sounds like he wrote himself into a corner there and it was too late to change anything. If all that were true from the beginning, the writing should reflect that. I mean, was Eamon supposed to live through the poisoning too? If so, where was the cure? Why didn't Jowan or someone else have it? Just how long was Eamon supposed to be sick?

 

Yeah I think you are right.  Berwick certainly wasn't doing his job since there is no way he could know if Eamon was ok or on deaths bed.  Everything certainly does point to the poisoning and attack on Cousland's to be premeditated.  I have a hard time believing Loghain would do all that we know he did and still worry if those affected would turn out ok.  The guy was disillusioned about his personal fears of an Orlesian threat.  I think we saw what length he would go to protect his homeland.

[Icy Magebane]

This story about Loghain arranging for Arl Eamon to be cured sounds really fishy.  Let's keep in mind the various retcons that this series has seen, and every time it's happened, Gaider has either claimed that he meant to do that all along (even with no evidence) or that he'll explain it later.  I find this very hard to believe.

[Lavaeolus]

Ferelden is beautiful, why not take in some sights? It's like the darkspawn are going anywhere anytime soon right?

I love the look of brown and smell of dog **** in the morning.

 

 

Yeah I think you are right.  Berwick certainly wasn't doing his job since there is no way he could know if Eamon was ok or on deaths bed.  Everything certainly does point to the poisoning and attack on Cousland's to be premeditated.  I have a hard time believing Loghain would do all that we know he did and still worry if those affected would turn out ok.  The guy was disillusioned about his personal fears of an Orlesian threat.  I think we saw what length he would go to protect his homeland.

Frankly, my main reason for not assuming Loghain was involved in the Cousland massacre is that you can't ever mention it to him in conversation or bring it up to the Landsmeet. I think nobles are just supposed to blame Howe, grit their teeth, and feel a new dimension to skewering him.

 

Not exactly compelling evidence, though. Origins is, sadly, not a perfectly written game.

[Lilaeth]

I know it's OT, but this thread got me thinking about Loghain, and his paranoid behaviour.  Could he have been influenced by a blood mage without anyone knowing??

[sylvanaerie]

I know it's OT, but this thread got me thinking about Loghain, and his paranoid behaviour.  Could he have been influenced by a blood mage without anyone knowing??

No, he had plenty of reasons to be whackadoo about Orlais from even before the events of the game.  No need for any blood mage to cause it.  

 

As for the OT, I think Bryce would have been against Loghain's takeover though he would have supported Anora in lieu of any other viable Theirin candidate (Alistair).  Had he wanted the throne he would have taken it 5 years ago when Maric disappeared.  I also think, had he lived, he would have opposed the civil war even starting up, though that was in direct cause because of Loghain's actions, actions I feel he may not have taken (or wouldn't have gotten as far as they did with Bryce around still to settle matters more appropriately).  Where Loghain lacked subtlety and skill (which a politician needs) Bryce had and could have defused matters much more capably than the general.

 

And while I feel he wouldn't have been in support of Loghain the Regent, he would have been in full support of Loghain the General as long as he was dealing with the Blight.  By which I mean, he wouldn't have supported poisoning Eamon, or the torture/bounty on nobles/Grey Wardens, or the slavery in the Alienage etc. And Howe would have lacked the influence on Loghain he exerted, so some plots may have been a moot point.  This is not to say Howe did everything (I fully believe Loghain either hatched more than a few on his own, or at the very least was fully aware of what was being done in his name), at least it would have toned down a lot of the crap the country goes through under the hands of the tyrant at the helm.

[PrinceLionheart]

With Cailan dead, I don't see what would prevent Bryce from accepting rulership of Ferelden.  In fact, that's probably why he was assassinated in the first place.

 

+1

 

According to the history, Bryce had previously turned down rulership, so Ferelden would have immediately flocked to him over Loghain for leadership. That and if Bryce were to have known about Alistair, being the loyalist he was, he would've thrown his lot in with him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I know it's OT, but this thread got me thinking about Loghain, and his paranoid behaviour.  Could he have been influenced by a blood mage without anyone knowing??

You're not the first person to wonder, but I think Loghain's mind was his own. The thing is that apparently most of the books Loghain appears in have him seeing something he can't explain, immediately and illogically concluding that it's an Orlesian plot to take over the country, and then being neither entirely correct about the details nor wrong that there's an Orlesian plot to take over the country involved.

 

 

+1

 

According to the history, Bryce had previously turned down rulership, so Ferelden would have immediately flocked to him over Loghain for leadership. That and if Bryce were to have known about Alistair, being the loyalist he was, he would've thrown his lot in with him.

As I've mentioned previously in the thread, it doesn't follow from Bryce's loyalty to the Theirin line that he would have thrown in his lot with Alistair. Alistair was unacknowledged, and while magical DnA tests are a thing in this setting we don't know of any possible control samples nor whether or not the Landsmeet uses these tests. (Though they damn well should.) Therefore, Bryce could reasonably doubt the rather necessary premise that Alistair is Maric's son. Nor is there any precedent for putting a bastard on the throne, which means that Bryce might well conclude that a bastard doesn't count. (Ceorlic, who is either loyal to Loghain or scared of him, argues for this course in the Gnawed Noble. Bann Sighard, who can be proven to be not much of either if you rescue his son, also does until you do so.)

[Icy Magebane]

No, he had plenty of reasons to be whackadoo about Orlais from even before the events of the game.  No need for any blood mage to cause it.  

 

As for the OT, I think Bryce would have been against Loghain's takeover though he would have supported Anora in lieu of any other viable Theirin candidate (Alistair).  Had he wanted the throne he would have taken it 5 years ago when Maric disappeared.  I also think, had he lived, he would have opposed the civil war even starting up, though that was in direct cause because of Loghain's actions, actions I feel he may not have taken (or wouldn't have gotten as far as they did with Bryce around still to settle matters more appropriately).  Where Loghain lacked subtlety and skill (which a politician needs) Bryce had and could have defused matters much more capably than the general.

 

And while I feel he wouldn't have been in support of Loghain the Regent, he would have been in full support of Loghain the General as long as he was dealing with the Blight.  By which I mean, he wouldn't have supported poisoning Eamon, or the torture/bounty on nobles/Grey Wardens, or the slavery in the Alienage etc. And Howe would have lacked the influence on Loghain he exerted, so some plots may have been a moot point.  This is not to say Howe did everything (I fully believe Loghain either hatched more than a few on his own, or at the very least was fully aware of what was being done in his name), at least it would have toned down a lot of the crap the country goes through under the hands of the tyrant at the helm.

I don't think that Bryce would have supported Anora.  She is not a descendent of the Theirin line, and was only Queen by marriage.  Since that seemed to have been his main reason for wanting to see Cailan take the throne, he probably would have stood with Teagan and the other nobles when they opposed Loghain... after all, would Bryce really have bought into the story that Cailan was betrayed by Grey Wardens in the middle of battle?  It seemed to be a rather obvious power grab, and keep in mind that Loghain did not acknowledge the Blight as a threat until long after Lothering had fallen... the civil war had been going on for a long time and he was still claiming that Orlais was the true enemy and that the darkspawn were merely an unusually large horde.

 

Let's assume for the moment that I agree with you.  We are now faced with the question of why Bryce was killed in the first place.  If Loghain wasn't behind that, why didn't he discipline Howe for taking a huge amount of initiative and massacring the entire family of a person that could have been, by your estimation at least, an invaluable ally?  Surely Loghain would have been concerned at seeing his new ally basically conquering Highever and placing himself in charge mere weeks (days?) before the battle at Ostagar.  It's clear form Loghain's dialogues at Ostagar that he was planning to betray Cailan if the young king refused to listen to reason, so why did he continue to work with Howe after the man had gone rogue and committed a hostile action against a respected noble family?  Allowing this to go unpunished would have made Loghain look incredibly suspicious when Howe was presented as his chief advisor, potentially damaging his credibility among the nobles.  If Loghain had no knowledge of the plan, it makes him look incredibly naive as a character because he continued to work with a man who obviously had no qualms about acting independently to secure more personal power.  That seems like an obvious sign that Howe would betray Loghain eventually.  The story makes the most sense if Howe had Loghain's approval, even if the plan wasn't originally Loghain's.

[Elhanan]

Bryce might have opposed Loghain, but I believe he would have approved of a marriage of Anora to Alistair. Bryce would have had a more complete knowledge of her past leadership than most, and would likely have supported a queen to assist the less experienced King, tradition or not.

[Kenshen]

Attempting to link Loghain to the Cousland massacre is not directly possible but I will repeat myself that I don't think Howe would have had the stones to make that attack without having assurances that he could get away with it.  I have wondered (and maybe have missed) what would the excuse have been to justify over throwing Highever?  Everyone seemed to think so highly of Bryce could they be convinced he was a traitor?  Not like he would side with the darkspawn.

 

Other than the Highever mess I still think Loghain would have gotten away with everything if Cailan hadn't changed the battle plan to send the wardens to light the beacon instead of his own men.  It is a lot easier to believe Loghain did the right thing by pulling his troops out because the signal never came and by the time it is realized it was too late.  One thing I don't remember is does the attack on Highever even get mentioned if we don't pick a HN origin?  I don't even think it is brought up at the very end slides.

[Icy Magebane]

Attempting to link Loghain to the Cousland massacre is not directly possible but I will repeat myself that I don't think Howe would have had the stones to make that attack without having assurances that he could get away with it.  I have wondered (and maybe have missed) what would the excuse have been to justify over throwing Highever?  Everyone seemed to think so highly of Bryce could they be convinced he was a traitor?  Not like he would side with the darkspawn.

 

Other than the Highever mess I still think Loghain would have gotten away with everything if Cailan hadn't changed the battle plan to send the wardens to light the beacon instead of his own men.  It is a lot easier to believe Loghain did the right thing by pulling his troops out because the signal never came and by the time it is realized it was too late.  One thing I don't remember is does the attack on Highever even get mentioned if we don't pick a HN origin?  I don't even think it is brought up at the very end slides.

I only recall it being mentioned when speaking to Cailan and Loghain at Ostagar (the latter if you persuade his guard to grant you an audience).  Cailan is outraged and promises to bring Howe to justice, whereas Loghain says that he believes Cailan has every intention of carrying out his promise.  Although the HN is recognized as a Cousland by several nobles during the story (Teagan and a few ppl before the Landsmeet), I don't remember them mentioning the massacre at all... that part was pretty much dropped as far as I can remember, and not really brought up again until we were face to face with Howe.  The few dialogues with the companions where this was mentioned seemed to also focus exclusively on getting revenge on Howe...

[Kenshen]

That just seems very odd to me that if you are not playing a HN that nothing is ever said about the Cousland's especially by the Landsmeet.  I know I would want to know where one of the highest ranking nobles was.  Oh well my guess is stuff like this wasn't meant to be discussed in such detail that we start to see the flaws in the story.  But isn't that what us RPG gamers do?!? haha

[BronzTrooper]

That just seems very odd to me that if you are not playing a HN that nothing is ever said about the Cousland's especially by the Landsmeet.  I know I would want to know where one of the highest ranking nobles was.  Oh well my guess is stuff like this wasn't meant to be discussed in such detail that we start to see the flaws in the story.  But isn't that what us RPG gamers do?!? haha

 

Pretty sure that the 'official story' was that there was an elven uprising that killed the entire Cousland family.  I think it was mentioned in of the rumors or gossip dialogues, but I'm not exactly sure.

[X Equestris]

Pretty sure that the 'official story' was that there was an elven uprising that killed the entire Cousland family.  I think it was mentioned in of the rumors or gossip dialogues, but I'm not exactly sure.

I've heard the theory that Howe called them traitors, claiming they were going to sell Ferelden out to the Orlesians, but I'm not sure there is in-game support for it. Even if there is, it's a really bad attempt at a cover up.

[BronzTrooper]

I've heard the theory that Howe called them traitors, claiming they were going to sell Ferelden out to the Orlesians, but I'm not sure there is in-game support for it. Even if there is, it's a really bad attempt at a cover up.

 

I don't think that story would hold water with most of the Fereldan nobility, tbh.  Much easier for Howe to blame it on the elves, especially with the elves in the Denerim alienage revolting.  

[gottaloveme]

Bryce might have opposed Loghain, but I believe he would have approved of a marriage of Anora to Alistair. Bryce would have had a more complete knowledge of her past leadership than most, and would likely have supported a queen to assist the less experienced King, tradition or not.

 

Bryce would have said - King Alistair, your majesty, may I introduce you to my beautiful daughter. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I've heard the theory that Howe called them traitors, claiming they were going to sell Ferelden out to the Orlesians, but I'm not sure there is in-game support for it. Even if there is, it's a really bad attempt at a cover up.

I believe that's exactly the story he taunts the Cousland PC with, while Loghain and Cauthrien are listening. It is therefore probably the official story, since Cauthrien might have looked askance at any inconsistency and wondered if her bosses were being honest about any of it. Of course, none of this is a guarantee, since we know Cauthrien was doing a lot of rationalizing anyway and I think Loghain and Howe were otherwise alone. (Whether Loghain knew or cared what really happened seems to depend on who you ask.)

[Killdren88]

Bryce would have said - King Alistair, your majesty, may I introduce you to my beautiful daughter. (wink, wink, nudge, nudge)

 

lol implying you were the Femwarden Noble.

[gottaloveme]

lol implying you were the Femwarden Noble.

 

I was assuming that Bryce would have the same family if he survived. I can just imagine Eleanor  saying (in Lady Landra's voice) this is my pup - she's not married yet either.

 

And as for Bryce and the Orlesians - he was going there but I got the feeling just to mend fences, trade, diplomatic stuff.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I was assuming that Bryce would have the same family if he survived. I can just imagine Eleanor  saying (in Lady Landra's voice) this is my pup - she's not married yet either.

 

And as for Bryce and the Orlesians - he was going there but I got the feeling just to mend fences, trade, diplomatic stuff.

I assume you're right about the second sentence, but as to the first, the default assumption seems to be that all the possible Wardens you didn't wind up picking were male.