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[Jedi Master of Orion]

I doubt that Bryce would believe Loghain.

 

Also, with no heir for Cailan, it's pretty likely that plenty in the Landsmeet would want to make Bryce king instead. It is mentioned that some wanted Bryce to be king after Maric died, but Bryce declined and Cailan succeeded his father. No Cailan or an heir for Cailan means that the throne is up for whoever can get enough support behind them.

 

Sooner or later, someone who chant, "I'll bend only to Bryce! The King in the North!" Then more would join in and Loghain/Anora would have a serious rival.

 

You know, Highever is only slightly further north than Denerim is, and Bryce would have to go there to rule if he became king anyway.

[X Equestris]

I was assuming that Bryce would have the same family if he survived. I can just imagine Eleanor  saying (in Lady Landra's voice) this is my pup - she's not married yet either.
 
And as for Bryce and the Orlesians - he was going there but I got the feeling just to mend fences, trade, diplomatic stuff.

I agree that all of Bryce's dealings with the Orlesians were of the diplomatic sort, but to some of Ferelden's more isolationist nobility, that might not have looked particularly good. If Howe used it as an excuse, it was likely thought up later, to connect his actions with Loghain's claims about the Orlesians being the real threat.

[WarriorOfLight999]

An interesting hypothetical situation....

 

Let's look at some of the facts. Loghain has been a respected national hero for decades. While Bryce was a loyal royalist, I think he would have believed Loghain when the battle was lost, and they had to pull out at Ostagar.

 

I would certainly hope, however, that Bryce would talk some sense into the nobility and stop the civil war. Only fools fight over a stable as it burns down around them. The darkspawn are a serious threat, and need to be dealt with first and foremost. As Bryce has no problem with diplomacy, even with those damnable Orlesians, he might be able to persuade Grey Wardens from other lands, like Nevarra or the Free Marches, to enter.

 

Once the darkspawn are dealt with, it's now the proper time to name a ruler. During the crisis, Loghain appointed himself Regent, which was fine, but I think Bryce would start doubting Anora's capability at this point. Regents are only declared if the heir is unfit to rule. That doesn't look good. Besides, Anora doesn't have a single drop of royal blood. The Couslands have a far better claim to the throne than either the Mactirs or Guerrins, who both try to claim by marriage.

 

If Howe didn't sack the castle, Fergus is still married. That leaves one child left. If its a male Cousland, Bryce could have him marry Anora, making a compromise of sorts with Loghain and keeping most of the nobility satisfied.

 

If it is a girl, that complicates things, because Bryce might be skeptical of Alistairs' claim to the throne, which relies on Eamons' word. A female Cousland has a better claim to the throne than Anora does, but Loghain has the loyalty of much of the army....

 

- Female Cousland marries Alistair. Probably not the best option, because this would upset much of the nobility, who are trying to win the very eligible Fem!Couslands hand. Royalists, however, might see this as the best compromise, keeping a direct descendant of Maric on the throne. This also wins Eamon as an ally, but I personally don't trust Eamon.

- Female Cousland marries someone else. Still going to have Loghain as an enemy, and also Eamon, who is trying to take the throne by putting Alistair on it. If Howe didn't go crazy and murder everyone, his son Nathaniel might be the best option.

- Either Fergus or Bryce take the throne. Bryce is respected by many, and was considered a candidate for King once. The tricky part is naming an heir at this point. See above.

[TEWR]

With. Bryce would've been at Ostagar and would've seen how chaotic it was, though I would think he'd point out that the Wardens were probably only part of the problem -- which they were. Seriously, the Wardens hold a part of the blame in the battle. So what Loghain's saying isn't exactly a lie. It's true to an extent and more importantly from Loghain's perspective it's completely true. He's not lying. He's telling what he believes to be true.

 

Anyway, this is also assuming Loghain would've used the same strategy and wouldn't have adjusted it to account for the combined might of Howe's forces and the remaining Cousland troops. It's noted that Bryce and the Cousland family in general are ardent royalists.

 

Anora has been the Queen for five years. She is, in fact, a royal. So Bryce would stand with her and her father, doubly so because it's known by the nobility that Anora was the brains behind the throne since Maric disappeared at sea and Cailan ascended to the throne. Throw into that how Bryce, being a good man who does not wish to take something he doesn't believe is his, would no doubt wish to avoid a Civil War in a time of Blight he'd naturally throw his lot in with them.

 

This would, in fact, perhaps be enough to convince the detractors of Loghain -- such as Teagan -- to not aggravate a tense political situation. In the event that some nobles still did try to take advantage of the vacuum (as some do, per Loghain's codex saying members of the Bannorn tried that and as is likely to happen) Bryce would've perhaps served as counsel towards the crown.

 

Granted, I'm assuming that Bryce and Anora would've convinced Loghain that Anora should handle the political matters more then he. I believe had Bryce survived, things would've gone astronomically different. If Bryce had lived, two teyrns would be working together. Bryce would've said that Anora is more then capable to handle things and Loghain and he should handle the military matters, with Bryce perhaps serving as a political aide at times. Loghain wouldn't have been the Regent and Anora/Bryce would've calmed the waters.

 

Better decisions would've been made.

 

The thing to understand is that Bryce and Howe serve as foils to one another. Howe exists to advance his station, never content with his lot. Bryce is perfectly happy with where he is in life. Bryce would stand with the crown because it's what's right. Howe would stand with the crown because it would be good for his opportunistic mentality.

[sylvanaerie]

With. Bryce would've been at Ostagar and would've seen how chaotic it was, though I would think he'd point out that the Wardens were probably only part of the problem -- which they were. Seriously, the Wardens hold a part of the blame in the battle. So what Loghain's saying isn't exactly a lie. It's true to an extent and more importantly from Loghain's perspective it's completely true. He's not lying. He's telling what he believes to be true.

 

Anyway, this is also assuming Loghain would've used the same strategy and wouldn't have adjusted it to account for the combined might of Howe's forces and the remaining Cousland troops. It's noted that Bryce and the Cousland family in general are ardent royalists.

 

Anora has been the Queen for five years. She is, in fact, a royal. So Bryce would stand with her and her father, doubly so because it's known by the nobility that Anora was the brains behind the throne since Maric disappeared at sea and Cailan ascended to the throne. Throw into that how Bryce, being a good man who does not wish to take something he doesn't believe is his, would no doubt wish to avoid a Civil War in a time of Blight he'd naturally throw his lot in with them.

 

This would, in fact, perhaps be enough to convince the detractors of Loghain -- such as Teagan -- to not aggravate a tense political situation. In the event that some nobles still did try to take advantage of the vacuum (as some do, per Loghain's codex saying members of the Bannorn tried that and as is likely to happen) Bryce would've perhaps served as counsel towards the crown.

 

Granted, I'm assuming that Bryce and Anora would've convinced Loghain that Anora should handle the political matters more then he. I believe had Bryce survived, things would've gone astronomically different. If Bryce had lived, two teyrns would be working together. Bryce would've said that Anora is more then capable to handle things and Loghain and he should handle the military matters, with Bryce perhaps serving as a political aide at times. Loghain wouldn't have been the Regent and Anora/Bryce would've calmed the waters.

 

Better decisions would've been made.

 

The thing to understand is that Bryce and Howe serve as foils to one another. Howe exists to advance his station, never content with his lot. Bryce is perfectly happy with where he is in life. Bryce would stand with the crown because it's what's right. Howe would stand with the crown because it would be good for his opportunistic mentality.

 

I feel pretty much this.  Bryce would have gone with stability, diplomacy and eliminated the need for a 'regency' which implies Anora wasn't capable of ruling the nation.  Bryce would have seen the wisdom in sticking with the woman who was Cailan's widow and has ruled in his name the past 5 years (the nobles know this).  If Alistair is brought forward as a viable candidate, he may suggest (in the interest of a united nation) that if Alistair rules, he marries Anora who has the political chops to counterbalance his more 'common man' approach to rulership.

 

While as an Alistair fan I hate that solution, since it isn't great for either personally, for Ferelden it's (arguably) the best outcome of the Landsmeet.

[Kenshen]

So who other than Anora and Loghain make the claim that she was the real ruler behind the scene and Cailan was nothing more than a pretty boy hand waver and baby kisser?  Bryce truly believed in the ruling bloodline to the point he turned down being king and to me that say a lot about his character.  Just because Anora had been queen for 5 years does not mean she can rule the nation though it also doesn't mean she can't.  However with a person who has ties to the bloodline I have a hard time believing Bryce would turn away from that.  If anything I think he would help Al  much the same way Eamon says he is going to.  Probably a mute point cause if Bryce doesn't die at Highever he most likely dies at Ostagar.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So who other than Anora and Loghain make the claim that she was the real ruler behind the scene and Cailan was nothing more than a pretty boy hand waver and baby kisser?

Alfstanna seems to believe it judging by her confused response to Eamon thinking he has a better candidate than Anora.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

In real life or in fiction, I've never liked the consort/regnant distinction.  I disagree with the concept.  Anora is already the queen, so I figure just let her rule.  Or rule jointly, if you marry her.

[DragonSailor]

I believe had Bryce survived, things would've gone astronomically different. If Bryce had lived, two teyrns would be working together.

 

...

 

Better decisions would've been made.

 

The thing to understand is that Bryce and Howe serve as foils to one another. 

 

This is really the crux of the matter here. We know Bryce was a loyalist. We know that he was smart, well-loved by his peers, and truly cared for Ferelden and the royal line. But Loghain chose to work with Howe. I have to agree with sylvanaerie, too:

 

And while I feel he wouldn't have been in support of Loghain the Regent, he would have been in full support of Loghain the General as long as he was dealing with the Blight.

 

As other posters have said, Bryce would have recognized the threat of the blight and what an asset Loghain is as a general. If he had no knowledge of Loghain's betrayal of Cailan, there's no doubt in my mind he would have sided with Loghain, at least until the blight was over. Because he would be looking out for Ferelden's best interests. That was the type of man he was and a lot of us recognized that. And yet, Loghain didn't choose Bryce as an ally. Loghain didn't even give himself that option.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that Bryce would've/could've been an accessory to poisoning Eamon and betraying the king. But, if Loghain truly intended Eamon and Cailan to survive, if murder hadn't been the goal-wouldn't he want one of the most respected leaders in Ferelden on his side? Bryce is a man who is politically savvy and has a way with words and politics-qualities Loghain is lacking, qualities that would complement Loghain's team & agenda.

 

Even if Loghain had planned for murder-Bryce is still the better option. The official story is that Cailan was lost in battle and Loghain pulled the armies out of a trap. Okay, why not sell that story to Bryce, too? Maybe Bryce wouldn't believe the grey wardens betrayed the king, but he might have taken a respected general's word that the situation was a trap and the darkspawn's numbers were greater than they realized. And again, Bryce would side with Loghain to end the threat of the blight-it's in Ferelden's best interest.

 

Instead, Loghain choose Howe to be his right hand man. A man who is universally disliked and who, ultimately is willingly and able to betray his life-long best friend, stabbing him in the back to steal his lands. Isn't there a staying about how the type of friends you have show what type of person you really are?

 

In short, Bryce was never going to side with Loghain-not because Bryce wouldn't choose Loghain, but because Loghain wouldn't choose Bryce. He didn't see Bryce as a viable ally. Why that is we can only guess, but I presume it's because Loghain knew that eventually their goals and beliefs would conflict, that they would end up at crosshairs. Isn't funny that for someone so worried about Orlesian takeover conspiracies, he choose to work with the man who was not an ardent loyalist and whose family actually switched sides? Again, I have to wonder the type of man Loghain really is and what he really thought he was doing.

 

But to stay on topic: Bryce teaming up with Loghain was never going to happen. Loghain let Howe make sure of that.

[ShadowLordXII]

 

Mainly because he went to Howe after Howe had engaged in the Cousland Massacre, something Loghain had nothing to do with (per Gaider).

 

Again, Gaider's quote remains ambiguous. We don't know for certain if Loghain really was involved in the Cousland massacre or not.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Again, Gaider's quote remains ambiguous. We don't know for certain if Loghain really was involved in the Cousland massacre or not.

Does anyone have the exact quote? I can't find it and want to judge for myself.

[KatDancer]

Remember that until Alistair showed up at Redcliffe, no one knew there was a living Theirin heir besides Loghain, Eamon, Isolde and Teagan.  And as far as the Guerrins are concerned, they sent him to the Templars to PREVENT his ever ascending the throne, and then he was made a Warden.  He should never have had a chance at it, had Cailan not died and Howe and Loghain made such a mess of things in the wake of Ostagar.

 

And if Eamon had not recovered, no one would have known of the heir save the Cousland Warden and Loghain.

 

One would assume that Bryce and Loghain must have known each other -- the number of nobles in Ferelden is not enormous, and the number of teyrns is TWO.  That is, Bryce and Loghain. 

 

Remember also that the Couslands are described as "ardent Royalists" and that Anora IS the queen, while Alistair has never been trained and doesn't want the throne (and says so repeatedly!).  One could also assume that with their father alive, the Cousland Warden would have listened to his or her father's advice on this matter.

 

I could easily see Bryce and Loghain working together to keep Anora on the throne, had Howe not murdered Bryce in the coup to take over the Coastlands.

Modifié par KatDancer, 20 septembre 2014 - 06:35 .

[dragonflight288]

One thing, I noticed, that many gamers are overlooking is this. 

 

No one knows about Alistair except Loghain and Eamon. Maric never acknowledged Alistair, so there is no actual proof that he is Maric's illegitimate child. I have no doubt that he is, but since he's unacknowledged, there is no real proof. 

 

If Bryce survived Ostagar, he may well have supported Loghain for lack of better options. Anora is already the queen, and the Couslands are staunch royalists. He may support Loghain by virtue of supporting Anora. 

 

Or he may have spearheaded the opposition. Either is likely. 

 

If Bryce was in the know about Alistair, he would likely support Alistair taking the throne. If he was kept in the dark, he may easily support Anora. 

[theskymoves]

 

One would assume that Bryce and Loghain must have known each other -- the number of nobles in Ferelden is not enormouse, and the number of teyrns is TWO.  That is, Bryce and Loghain. 

 

At Ostagar, Loghain recognizes a HN!Warden as Bryce's spawn, on sight:

 

Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?

Cousland!Warden: I've never been out of Highever. (or No, we've never met.)

Loghain: But you are Bryce's daughter/son. I never forget a face. (*snicker* The toolset comment/direction for this line is: 'dire tone, he realizes who the player is')

[KatDancer]

At Ostagar, Loghain recognizes a HN!Warden as Bryce's spawn, on sight:

 

Loghain: You look familiar. Have I seen you at the Landsmeet?

Cousland!Warden: I've never been out of Highever. (or No, we've never met.)

Loghain: But you are Bryce's daughter/son. I never forget a face. (*snicker* The toolset comment/direction for this line is: 'dire tone, he realizes who the player is')

Ah, I never got that line.  I always 'fessed up about dear old dad -- when I wasn't being told it was smart of the Wardens to recruit from Orzammar. 

[gottaloveme]

The feeling that I've always gotten from Bryce is that if he knew of Alistair's claim he would support him over Anora. Blood would be important as they can, and do, trace theirs (what?) all the way back to the beginning of Ferelden? Talk to Aldous. So, yes, Alistair over Anora (I got nothing against Anora ). Some choices, however, may be different according to how Bryce survived. Did he survive the attack or was there no attack at all?

[TEWR]

Alistair's lineage has no proof other then Eamon's testimony. IIRC bringing this up has people agree with Loghain when it's questioned. Eamon has no tangible proof, but expects people to fall in line on his word alone -- and many do, squarely because he's respected within the Landsmeet.

 

That no one really questions it more is evident of how Bioware really didn't think this through. Hell, they've pretty much relegated Alistair to being a mascot of the franchise, often acting like Alistair being king is the best damn thing out there.

 

Now, of course, we the players know Alistair is telling the truth through alternative knowledge. Maric, Eamon, Teagan, and Loghain also know that it's true. But the point is a claim of such importance necessitates proof.

 

As for if Bryce knew, I honestly don't see how he wouldn't have known. At the time of Alistair's conception, Rowan was dead, so how Loghain could think it would've reduced her down to a concubine I don't really get. But Bryce is a man of honor, so I can't see how he wouldn't have been told. But one must keep in mind that, were things to play out exactly the same way (Ostagar being a failure of a battle, Loghain retreating with Bryce alongside him) at the time of that initial Landsmeet where Loghain calls for aid NO ONE would know where Alistair was and he would be presumed KIA.

 

This would mean that both the Theirin heirs would have been, as far as anyone knew, dead and gone. Which would still mean Bryce would support Anora the Queen. And even if he somehow known about Alistair surviving before Loghain was informed, I can't see him supporting Alistair as the one who should rule. At most, he'd petition for Anora and Alistair to marry so as to settle nationalistic/traditionalist sentiments that say the Theirin bloodline is Ferelden (meaning Eamon and like-minded nobility) while also keeping stability with Anora ruling as she's done for the past five years.

 

 

Does anyone have the exact quote? I can't find it and want to judge for myself.

 

I recall seeing someone post it in the DAI forums discussing Loghain, but because Google searching for it is **** and Bioware's own search function is also ****, I'm having trouble finding the thread.

 

....Bioware really needs a better means of finding old threads.

 

 

Again, Gaider's quote remains ambiguous. We don't know for certain if Loghain really was involved in the Cousland massacre or not.

 

Not really addressing this because until I find the quote people can feel free to take my word with a grain of salt but... where the hell did my post go? Did it get deleted? It's not showing up at all.

 

Like seriously. I posted something and it vanished into thin air in the hours since.

 

*Sigh*

 

suffice to say and to repeat it to Dragonsailor: Ostagar was not a betrayal and Loghain went to Howe after the battle of Ostagar for aid, after Howe had perpetrated an act behind all of the nobility's back.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Bryce would stand with him and disown his child if they disagreed.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I recall seeing someone post it in the DAI forums discussing Loghain, but because Google searching for it is **** and Bioware's own search function is also ****, I'm having trouble finding the thread.

 

....Bioware really needs a better means of finding old threads.

 

I think I found the exact quote.

 

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

 

 

I'll note that this doesn't come right out and say that Loghain didn't specifically permit the massacre at Ostagar, but it implies that Howe had done messed up things that Loghain wasn't entirely okay with before Ostagar. (My reasoning is that Loghain had already commited to the alliance before Ostagar, and because I can't think why Gaider would bother stating that Loghain had disagreements with Howe if he didn't mean the massacre was one of them.)

[TEWR]

That's not the one I was referring to. The one I had seen was more concrete and clear.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's not the one I was referring to. The one I had seen was more concrete and clear.

If you can remember a short snatch of the exact wording, try putting that through google in quotation marks. That's how I dug that quote up.

[Patchwork]

That quote makes it sound like Howe felt secure going after the Couslands because of his alliance with Loghain. After Ostagar Loghain stuck with him out of loyalty and a lack of options. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That quote makes it sound like Howe felt secure going after the Couslands because of his alliance with Loghain. After Ostagar Loghain stuck with him out of loyalty and a lack of options. 

That's not the same as an explicit greenlight, though.

[ShadowLordXII]

I think I found the exact quote.

 

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

 

 

I'll note that this doesn't come right out and say that Loghain didn't specifically permit the massacre at Ostagar, but it implies that Howe had done messed up things that Loghain wasn't entirely okay with before Ostagar. (My reasoning is that Loghain had already commited to the alliance before Ostagar, and because I can't think why Gaider would bother stating that Loghain had disagreements with Howe if he didn't mean the massacre was one of them.)

 

Probably best if the degree of Loghain's alliance with Howe is left to the imagination. A decent argument could be made for Loghain's involvement with the massacre due to timing and his lackluster reaction to Bryce's death and an argument can be made that Loghain didn't have anything to do with it, but may have been in a position that he had to let Howe get away with it due to his need for allies. Saying that neither is impossible would be dumb based on what we see in the game.

[Patchwork]

That's not the same as an explicit greenlight, though.

 

Didn't say it was. I've played a few of my Couslands as paranoid, side-eyeing everyone particularly Cailan and Loghain at Ostagar but I've never really thought Loghain was in on the Cousland massacre that was Howe taking advantage of the moment. Bryce's forces were gone but all the family were still at Highever and Howe had all his soldiers. The alliance with Loghain was in place to give him protection from nobles who doubted his story of what happened that night. I think Howe spent a lot of time setting up the fall of the Couslands and Loghain was how he planned to get away with it.

 

A Blight, a civil war and Loghain becoming regent were all bonuses in that regard.