201 réponses à ce sujet

[X Equestris]

Even if there was no alliance between Howe and Loghain prior to Ostagar, by the time Loghain's back in Denerim, Howe has set himself up as Teyrn of Highever, Arl of Amaranthine, and Arl of Denerim. Howe had made himself politically useful at this point, and there is no point in forcing a politically useful man like Howe into the arms of your opponents, especially with civil war on the horizon. It really didn't help that he was rather politically inept.

[KatDancer]

Even if there was no alliance between Howe and Loghain prior to Ostagar, by the time Loghain's back in Denerim, Howe has set himself up as Teyrn of Highever, Arl of Amaranthine, and Arl of Denerim. Howe had made himself politically useful at this point, and there is no point in forcing a politically useful man like Howe into the arms of your opponents, especially with civil war on the horizon. It really didn't help that he was rather politically inept.

By that time, Howe controlled the whole of the Coastlands -- the whole north.   With the Bannorn in rebellion, the Blight spreading (though Loghain doesn't believe it a Blight until the end game, pretty much) and the expected but never arriving invasion from Orlais at their doorstep, Loghain could not really afford to lose Howe as an ally.

[Sifr]

This story about Loghain arranging for Arl Eamon to be cured sounds really fishy.  Let's keep in mind the various retcons that this series has seen, and every time it's happened, Gaider has either claimed that he meant to do that all along (even with no evidence) or that he'll explain it later.  I find this very hard to believe.

 

I don't buy it either, as while the Desire Demon probably was lying to Connor that she was the only means to keep his father alive (and after it's defeated, the Arl does remain alive until you recover the Ashes), it does seem a little iffy to say there's a cure for this thing just lying around, that no-one save Loghain has access to or ever heard of?

 

Unless it's a super rare poison with an even rarer cure, it does seem strange that there's an entire tower filled with Mages sitting on the opposite side of that lake who had no inclination of a cure, magical or medicinal in that massive library of theirs? Sure, the tower isn't in the best shape after Uldred's attempted rebellion, but you'd think they'd have a few people hitting the books just in case?

[dragonflight288]

I don't buy it either, as while the Desire Demon probably was lying to Connor that she was the only means to keep his father alive (and after it's defeated, the Arl does remain alive until you recover the Ashes), it does seem a little iffy to say there's a cure for this thing just lying around, that no-one save Loghain has access to or ever heard of?

 

Unless it's a super rare poison with an even rarer cure, it does seem strange that there's an entire tower filled with Mages sitting on the opposite side of that lake who had no inclination of a cure, magical or medicinal in that massive library of theirs? Sure, the tower isn't in the best shape after Uldred's attempted rebellion, but you'd think they'd have a few people hitting the books just in case?

 

It could be similar to the regicide poison in Orzammar where you have to make a cure for the dwarf woman. But the cure is hard to make, you have to be a master herbalist and with some rare (for Orzammar) ingredients. 

 

Who's to say that this poison and cure isn't similar in how rare it is?

 

But yeah, I agree with you. 

[sylvanaerie]

I don't buy it either, as while the Desire Demon probably was lying to Connor that she was the only means to keep his father alive (and after it's defeated, the Arl does remain alive until you recover the Ashes), it does seem a little iffy to say there's a cure for this thing just lying around, that no-one save Loghain has access to or ever heard of?

 

Unless it's a super rare poison with an even rarer cure, it does seem strange that there's an entire tower filled with Mages sitting on the opposite side of that lake who had no inclination of a cure, magical or medicinal in that massive library of theirs? Sure, the tower isn't in the best shape after Uldred's attempted rebellion, but you'd think they'd have a few people hitting the books just in case?

 

Yea, I always felt this was either a plot hole, or it was another bullsh*t retcon of the events of the game.  Seriously, it takes some monumental mental acrobatics to excuse Loghain's action on this one as presented in the game.  Like where the hell did he get a poison NO one ANYwhere had ever heard of before?  AND had a cure waiting in case things went too far?  I smell poo all over this one.  

[DragonSailor]

 

suffice to say and to repeat it to Dragonsailor: Ostagar was not a betrayal and Loghain went to Howe after the battle of Ostagar for aid, after Howe had perpetrated an act behind all of the nobility's back.

 

I hate to keep harping, but I feel the need to clarify my position. I'm not saying that Loghain would be completely for and okay with murdering the Couslands, in fact I think he probably had some doubts. But he still either let it happen or didn't do anything after the fact. From that particularly Gaider quote, it seems like Howe and Loghain already had an alliance before Ostagar and if that's the case, my point stands. Loghain, facing doubts about the Orlesians and how Cailian is handling the blight choose to ally himself with Howe instead of Bryce. Again I have to ask why.

 

But of course, it is possible that the two acted on their own-Howe happened to overthrow Highever just before Loghain decided to retreat, leaving the king to die. I, personally, find that unlikely, simply because it requires a much deeper level of deception and secrecy on both parties and I certainly didn't get any hint of it in the game. When we next see Howe, iirc, he is already Loghain's second in command, giving him a report about how grey wardens survived Ostagar and is suggesting assassins to deal with them. Sure it's possible that Howe gave Loghain the lie about an elf uprising or whatever his story about Highever was and Loghain gave Howe the story about how the grey wardens betrayed the king and in this scene Howe isn't advising Loghain on how to cover up their mistakes--that they're not in cahoots; Howe is just simply telling Loghain how to get rid of traitors of the state. Loghain, then wouldn't have picked Howe from the beginning either, but maybe instead, after the king's death is forced to ally with now the second most powerful noble in Ferelden and chooses not to quibble over Howe's support, despite rumors of Howe's betrayal, because he just can't afford to not have Howe's support and resources. But I just definitely didn't get that vibe. If this was to be the case from the beginning, again the writing should reflect that.  As is, there seems to be some missing scenes. We don't ever see Loghain go to Howe, see the conversation defining their alliance. We don't even get codex material or whispers about how Howe insinuated himself in with Loghain. This kind of backstory would require a completely different outlook on and reimagining of most of the game. And it would raise new questions.

 

Like would Loghain really trust Howe to be his second then, and why? Why not keep Cauthrien closer? Remember it's Howe that gives Loghain that report and not Cauthrien. In fact, we don't see Cauthrien and Loghain together much at all. Then, when Loghain is recruited, he doesn't give us much info either. Why don't we see him admitting to the HN that partnering with Howe was an unfortunate necessity? I don't remember be able to talk about the massacre with him at all. And, too, I would have to wonder why Howe is made arl of Denerim. It's not like Howe needed anymore land and it would have been the perfect chance to get some other noble to his side... unless of course, it's why Howe and Loghain team up in the first place.  However, I don't recall any support for that. But is it possible? Sure.

 

And I think that's what makes this game so great. That possibility. Here it is five years later with a new sequel about to come out and we're still talking about just how evil Loghain is and what his motives are and what Ferelden would be like if Bryce had survived. I definitely wanna go back and play now and really see for myself if Loghain and Howe are acting separately.

 

But before I do, I have to remind everyone about the old reader interpretation vs. writer intention debate. Again, no disrespect to Gaider, but the reader, or player here, is right in this case, mostly because the writer's intentions are (to my knowledge) unsupported in the source material. Gaider can post what his intentions were or how we are supposed to read something. But if the evidence is not in the original source material, then that's just not how it happened. It's just not how things are.

 

To help you understand where I'm coming from, seeing posts like that from Gaider is like hearing about an author trying to change the ending (or some middle parts) of a book that is not only written, but published and sold millions of copies. So, yeah, he can change the ending. In the next edition. But that's not how our copies read. Or at least I don't think it does. Is there support for that interpretation? I don't know and certainly didn't find any but I would love to hear if someone else did.

 

Again, that's what makes the game great, the possibilities and the places your imagination can take you. That there can be hidden levels of the story and subtle hints at different meanings and motives. Here's hoping Inquisition shares that depth.

[KatDancer]

Yea, I always felt this was either a plot hole, or it was another bullsh*t retcon of the events of the game.  Seriously, it takes some monumental mental acrobatics to excuse Loghain's action on this one as presented in the game.  Like where the hell did he get a poison NO one ANYwhere had ever heard of before?  AND had a cure waiting in case things went too far?  I smell poo all over this one.  

I always thought that the 'unnatural' part of Eamon not waking was the interference of the Desire Demon after the poisoning - which is then cured by the ashes as the holy relic drives off the last of the demonic influence.

[KatDancer]

To help you understand where I'm coming from, seeing posts like that from Gaider is like hearing about an author trying to change the ending (or some middle parts) of a book that is not only written, but published and sold millions of copies. So, yeah, he can change the ending. In the next edition. But that's not how our copies read. Or at least I don't think it does. Is there support for that interpretation? I don't know and certainly didn't find any but I would love to hear if someone else did.

You have hit the nail on the head exactly for how I feel about the retcon that Alistair indeed DID get his lyrium when he clearly did not need it in game and told us flat out that templars only got it on taking their final vows.... and that somehow he seems immune to the effects of it and suffers no withdrawal from it.

 

And that he is, as Varric puts it, a "special snowflake" for being dragon-blooded into the mix.

[Lilaeth]

I only recall it being mentioned when speaking to Cailan and Loghain at Ostagar (the latter if you persuade his guard to grant you an audience).  Cailan is outraged and promises to bring Howe to justice, whereas Loghain says that he believes Cailan has every intention of carrying out his promise.  Although the HN is recognized as a Cousland by several nobles during the story (Teagan and a few ppl before the Landsmeet), I don't remember them mentioning the massacre at all... that part was pretty much dropped as far as I can remember, and not really brought up again until we were face to face with Howe.  The few dialogues with the companions where this was mentioned seemed to also focus exclusively on getting revenge on Howe...

One of the nobles in the Gnawed Nobles says something like 'I suppose you're looking for help to take back your lands', or if not those exact words, then something like that.  He then tells you he can't help as his own lands are over-run.  No mention, that i remember, of Howe being the reason you might be looking for such help.

[sylvanaerie]

I always thought that the 'unnatural' part of Eamon not waking was the interference of the Desire Demon after the poisoning - which is then cured by the ashes as the holy relic drives off the last of the demonic influence.

 

I'm talking about before the demon got her hooks into him.  The poison didn't take effect immediately, they tried everything even before Eamon fell into his coma.  Both magic and natural means had no effect (this according to the knight you meet in Lothering), who admits the search for the holy relic is nothing more than a 'quest of desperation'.  And while the timeline is fuzzy, I'm assuming Connor didn't make his deal with the demon till after his dad fell into a coma.

 

This miracle poison with no cure known to anyone, even magical, that Loghain thought would only 'incapacitate him for a time' excuse for Loghain's actions seems contrived after the fact.  Now admittedly, I don't recruit Loghain but as far as I know there is no dialogue in game where you can discern his actual intent here with Eamon, (especially prior to the Landsmeet where you either kill or recruit him).  It seems to me like this is just another Bioware retcon after the fact, like Ostagar or his involvement (or lack thereof) in the Cousland massacre.  And for the record, my interpretation of that is he only knew what Howe did after the fact, but by then it would have been better to keep this enemy close where he can see him than to openly oppose his actions and having Howe plotting how to take him (Loghain) out as well.  Certainly if he killed one teryn with impunity he would kill another (or Anora) without batting an eye.

 

But is this miracle poison and Loghain's cure a "Gaiderism" or can someone point to a Utube dialogue of this conversation in the game of "I just wanted to get him out of the way for a little while" if it exists please?

 

@ TEWR, some people (myself included) still see his actions at Ostagar as a betrayal.  Whether he betrayed anyone is a matter of perception and interpretation, not emphatic truth.  The game certainly doesn't have anything in it pointing to anything other than outright betrayal and then a smear campaign by Loghain after the fact to cover his bases.  This is my perception of the events.  I know this is just my opinion so I won't state this as emphatic truth.  If you choose to interpret his actions differently that's okay.  Ask 5 people what the events were of a car accident they witnessed and you will get 5 different answers all containing some nuggets of truth.  They aren't lying, it's just how human beings are wired, and why witness testimony holds less weight than physical evidence.

 

I think one reason the character has been so polarizing and people still argue about his actions years later is because the interpretation of his motives is so open.  It's up to the player to interpret his actions (he certainly doesn't clarify them prior to the Landsmeet or much after in fact) and determine for themselves why he did what he did.  

[X Equestris]

One of the nobles in the Gnawed Nobles says something like 'I suppose you're looking for help to take back your lands', or if not those exact words, then something like that.  He then tells you he can't help as his own lands are over-run.  No mention, that i remember, of Howe being the reason you might be looking for such help.

If you help Alfstanna get her brother back from the dungeons, she will offer you troops to take back Highever. I don't recall if she actually mentions Howe, though.

By that time, Howe controlled the whole of the Coastlands -- the whole north.   With the Bannorn in rebellion, the Blight spreading (though Loghain doesn't believe it a Blight until the end game, pretty much) and the expected but never arriving invasion from Orlais at their doorstep, Loghain could not really afford to lose Howe as an ally.

That's my point. Even if there was no earlier conspiracy, Howe made himself politically indispensable. He also still has most of his men, as well as the men left behind by Arl Urien in Denerim.

[Cousland27]

Hello everyone i'm new here and have been a fan of DA:O for many years.

 

As for the question.  I believe Bryce was loyal to the crown up to his death.  When you ask Howe if he doesn't think highly of the King, he answers by saying some derogatory remark, to which Bryce vehemently objects.  So yeah, despite King Cailan's shortcomings I believe Bryce and the entire Cousland house, were loyal to Cailan til the end.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Hello everyone i'm new here and have been a fan of DA:O for many years.

 

As for the question.  I believe Bryce was loyal to the crown up to his death.  When you ask Howe if he doesn't think highly of the King, he answers by saying some derogatory remark, to which Bryce vehemently objects.  So yeah, despite King Cailan's shortcomings I believe Bryce and the entire Cousland house, were loyal to Cailan til the end.

That's not really the question. We're wondering who Bryce would have sided with after Cailan's end.

[Cousland27]

OH!  He would have gone against Loghain.  Like I said he was very loyal to the King, and Loghain letting Cailan die at Ostagar would have made Bryce rally Fereldan against Loghain.  After all, Bryce Cousland was second only to the King.  So the Bann's would have rallied behind him, plunging Fereldan into a civil war.

[BronzTrooper]

One of the nobles in the Gnawed Nobles says something like 'I suppose you're looking for help to take back your lands', or if not those exact words, then something like that.  He then tells you he can't help as his own lands are over-run.  No mention, that i remember, of Howe being the reason you might be looking for such help.

 

 

If you help Alfstanna get her brother back from the dungeons, she will offer you troops to take back Highever. I don't recall if she actually mentions Howe, though.

 

As I've mentioned before: Howe's cover story was that an elven revolt killed the entire Cousland family.  Considering the reputation of Highever's alienage amongst the Denerim elves (according to what was said in the CE origin, it was one of the worst alienages in Ferelden to live in), it's pretty believable.  I think that that's what Arl Wulff (the noble you're thinking of, Lilaeth) and Alfstanna mention helping you take back your lands.

[X Equestris]

As I've mentioned before: Howe's cover story was that an elven revolt killed the entire Cousland family.  Considering the reputation of Highever's alienage amongst the Denerim elves (according to what was said in the CE origin, it was one of the worst alienages in Ferelden to live in), it's pretty believable.  I think that that's what Arl Wulff (the noble you're thinking of, Lilaeth) and Alfstanna mention helping you take back your lands.

Actually, Highever is mentioned to have the best alienage in Ferelden. I don't know where you got the thing about the elven revolt. I have never heard anything of the sort in game.

[BronzTrooper]

Actually, Highever is mentioned to have the best alienage in Ferelden. I don't know where you got the thing about the elven revolt. I have never heard anything of the sort in game.

 

I'm pretty sure that Highever's alienage has a bad reputation.  Going to replay the CE origin soon, so I'll double-check.

 

And I think I heard about it in one of the rumors or gossip dialogues.  I don't remember the exact source, but I have heard it mentioned several times in-game.

[gottaloveme]

I think that Bryce would be well able to take the measure of the man. Ardent royalist tho' he is. his sense of honour and integrity would not allow for such games as Loghain and Anora are playing (honestly I have nothing against Anora). He would have sized it all up and denied the throne to the MacTirs. This being after the blight was ended of course.

 

Just one more thing about Eamon being poisoned. If he executes Jowan, which is likely (he is the injured party, the Arl of Redcliffe and I guess the law in those parts). then he loses a key witness. Having said this the key witness and perpetrator is an apostate blood mage.

 

Berwick's testimony would also be suspect because he is simply an elf.

 

As for darling Isolde she would be the worst witness of all. Eamon's wife trying to cirmcumvent the authority of the Circle by keeping her son's abilities a secret (even from her husband? LIke that would work), and by employing said apostate blood mage.

 

Bryce would have to sift thru all this crap to come up with any decisions about the throne. I think that he could never believe that Ferelden's greatest general would ever get himself into such a snarl of intrigue as he does without something fishy going on. With Eamon's charges on the one hand and Loghain's bluster on the other, Bryce would come down on the side of Eamon and therefore of Alistair. After all, Alistair is disinterested and well apart from political shenanigans. He is also Maric's son.

[Kenshen]

 

 

Just one more thing about Eamon being poisoned. If he executes Jowan, which is likely (he is the injured party, the Arl of Redcliffe and I guess the law in those parts). then he loses a key witness. Having said this the key witness and perpetrator is an apostate blood mage.

 

Berwick's testimony would also be suspect because he is simply an elf.

 

 

 

Excellent points I never considered those two as witnesses.  Berwick did have a letter though I don't remember (also doubt) that it connected Loghain directly.  I agree that I don't see many if any would listen to Jowan but with those 2 plus all the other circumstantial evidence it should be enough to start changing the minds of the nobles who would otherwise be on the fence.  If I recall we actually lose "points" during the Landsmeet if we bring up the poisoning, I wonder if that would still be true if we introduced their testimony.

[Patchwork]

IIRC we lose points at the Landsmet if we bring up Ostagar, Eamon's poisoning gains points and a few extra if we told Alfstanna about her brother because then both she and the Grand Cleric speak up against Loghain/Howe. Talk about the Blight being the threat not Orlais to get more rumbling from the audience nobles. Then Bann Sighard and ugh Vaughan win it for you if you helped them.

 

The best part is winning the Landsmet even if Anora speaks out against you, I like Anora but I'm petty enough to enjoy that win because she's so certain you can't do it without her. It's like thwarting Eamon's plans to be the king's adviser if you marry Alistair to Anora. 

 

You have to deliberately sabotage yourself to fail the Landsmet I think. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

IIRC we lose points at the Landsmet if we bring up Ostagar, Eamon's poisoning gains points and a few extra if we told Alfstanna about her brother because then both she and the Grand Cleric speak up against Loghain/Howe. Talk about the Blight being the threat not Orlais to get more rumbling from the audience nobles. Then Bann Sighard and ugh Vaughan win it for you if you helped them.

 

The best part is winning the Landsmet even if Anora speaks out against you, I like Anora but I'm petty enough to enjoy that win because she's so certain you can't do it without her. It's like thwarting Eamon's plans to be the king's adviser if you marry Alistair to Anora. 

 

You have to deliberately sabotage yourself to fail the Landsmet I think. 

I accidentally messed up getting Anora's support as my DE, which led to me losing. But then I managed to load and make the arguments that lead to the most points. I thereby won without Anora or Vaughn, though I'm pretty sure I had the support of the noble from the Trial Of Crows plotline.

[Dabrikishaw]

IIRC we lose points at the Landsmet if we bring up Ostagar, Eamon's poisoning gains points and a few extra if we told Alfstanna about her brother because then both she and the Grand Cleric speak up against Loghain/Howe. Talk about the Blight being the threat not Orlais to get more rumbling from the audience nobles. Then Bann Sighard and ugh Vaughan win it for you if you helped them.

 

The best part is winning the Landsmet even if Anora speaks out against you, I like Anora but I'm petty enough to enjoy that win because she's so certain you can't do it without her. It's like thwarting Eamon's plans to be the king's adviser if you marry Alistair to Anora. 

 

You have to deliberately sabotage yourself to fail the Landsmet I think. 

My favorite thing to do at the Landsmeet is have Anora agree to marry Alistair for her vote, have Alistair kill Loghain in a duel so she breaks off the wedding, then make Alistair king.

[KatDancer]

As I recall, it's Iona, an elf and guest in your home (who can be induced to sleep with your Cousland) who claims that it's said Bryce treats elves well in his home -- and yet Nan is abusive, threatening to flay them alive if they don't get a trained mabari hound -- a breed known to bite people's arms off, according to Ser Gilmore -- out of the pantry.

 

I also recall one of the Denerim elves saying Highever is pretty bad, but that may just be 'our place is pretty shitty, but it's better than there'.

[WarriorOfLight999]

Unfortunate about the Highever alienage. I always headcannon that my Queen takes Amethyne (Ionas' daughter) from Denerim and takes care of her. Let the rest of the nobles sneer at a 'knife ear', if that is all they are good at.

[theskymoves]

As I recall, it's Iona, an elf and guest in your home (who can be induced to sleep with your Cousland) who claims that it's said Bryce treats elves well in his home -- and yet Nan is abusive, threatening to flay them alive if they don't get a trained mabari hound -- a breed known to bite people's arms off, according to Ser Gilmore -- out of the pantry.

 

I also recall one of the Denerim elves saying Highever is pretty bad, but that may just be 'our place is pretty shitty, but it's better than there'.

 

I think the dialogue you recall might be either something Nessa's father says when discussing his desire to look for work in Highever:

 

Spoiler

PC!Tabris: Moving to a different alienage isn't easy. Travel and bribes cost money.

Nessa's dad: Humans are a suspicious lot. I've heard the ones in Highever are worse than here.

 

or this, from conversation with both Nelaros and Nesiara:

 

Spoiler

PC!Tabris: How do you feel about moving to Denerim?
Nelaros/Nesiara: Denerim itself seems friendlier than Highever... perhaps because it's so large that humans take less notice of us.