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[TEWR]

With. Bryce would've been at Ostagar and would've seen how chaotic it was, though I would think he'd point out that the Wardens were probably only part of the problem -- which they were. Seriously, the Wardens hold a part of the blame in the battle. So what Loghain's saying isn't exactly a lie. It's true to an extent and more importantly from Loghain's perspective it's completely true. He's not lying. He's telling what he believes to be true.

 

Anyway, this is also assuming Loghain would've used the same strategy and wouldn't have adjusted it to account for the combined might of Howe's forces and the remaining Cousland troops. It's noted that Bryce and the Cousland family in general are ardent royalists.

 

Anora has been the Queen for five years. She is, in fact, a royal. So Bryce would stand with her and her father, doubly so because it's known by the nobility that Anora was the brains behind the throne since Maric disappeared at sea and Cailan ascended to the throne. Throw into that how Bryce, being a good man who does not wish to take something he doesn't believe is his, would no doubt wish to avoid a Civil War in a time of Blight he'd naturally throw his lot in with them.

 

This would, in fact, perhaps be enough to convince the detractors of Loghain -- such as Teagan -- to not aggravate a tense political situation. In the event that some nobles still did try to take advantage of the vacuum (as some do, per Loghain's codex saying members of the Bannorn tried that and as is likely to happen) Bryce would've perhaps served as counsel towards the crown.

 

Granted, I'm assuming that Bryce and Anora would've convinced Loghain that Anora should handle the political matters more then he. I believe had Bryce survived, things would've gone astronomically different. If Bryce had lived, two teyrns would be working together. Bryce would've said that Anora is more then capable to handle things and Loghain and he should handle the military matters, with Bryce perhaps serving as a political aide at times. Loghain wouldn't have been the Regent and Anora/Bryce would've calmed the waters.

 

Better decisions would've been made.

 

The thing to understand is that Bryce and Howe serve as foils to one another. Howe exists to advance his station, never content with his lot. Bryce is perfectly happy with where he is in life. Bryce would stand with the crown because it's what's right. Howe would stand with the crown because it would be good for his opportunistic mentality.

[gottaloveme]

Bryce would be sympathetic to Anora but not supportive. If he knew about Alistair he would support him. It's the blood after all. And as for the timelines - you kind of have to ignore the gaping holes in order to suspend disbelief.

[Xetykins]

Because bryce died before cailan? And i meant Bryce has too much self respect to support loghain if he survived

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bryce would be sympathetic to Anora but not supportive. If he knew about Alistair he would support him. It's the blood after all.

Again: the blood isn't necessarily the deciding factor. Ceorlic (who is afraid of Loghain) says that it's better the Mac Tirs get the throne than that it pass to a bastard, and his conversational partner (who is not afraid of Loghain and who is in fact rather easy to turn to your side) not only does not challenge this but in fact is the one who opened that topic of conversation by saying that a bastard has never gotten the throne before and probably never should. So it's not as clear cut as all that that Bryce would believe that Alistair should have the crown.

 

 

Because bryce died before cailan? And i meant Bryce has too much self respect to support loghain if he survived

What you said, I think, was that Bryce wouldn't have gone for the crown. Which he'd pretty much have to do in order to oppose Loghain, unless he accepted Alistair's (questionable) claim to the throne. Also, I assume the first sentence was a reply to one of Merle's questions, but I can't tell which one. Could you please clarify?

[Xetykins]

Yep to Merle :-)
But Maric probably held Bryce in confidence concerning his personal life. Just a speculation ofc. Soo.. you think Alistair is not Maric's son now since you labeled it questionable? Because even that brat on the rack in the dungeon refered Alistair as Maric's bastard. I guess its a pretty well known secret. And Eamon's words would hold a lot of sway.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yep to Merle :-)
But Maric probably held Bryce in confidence concerning his personal life. Just a speculation ofc. Soo.. you think Alistair is not Maric's son now since you labeled it questionable? Because even that brat on the rack in the dungeon refered Alistair as Maric's bastard. I guess its a pretty well known secret. And Eamon's words would hold a lot of sway.

I don't think Eamon is able to offer much proof, though given that (as you say) his word will hold a lot of sway I'm going to leave that alone. When I called Alistair's claim questionable I was talking about that same dialogue I mentioned in my reply to Gottaloveme.

[Xetykins]

Ah ok but ceorlic came from a family of double crossers and back stabbers and border crossers. His words dont matter one bit to me

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Ah ok but ceorlic came from a family of double crossers and back stabbers and border crossers. His words dont matter one bit to me

That's why his words don't matter? Seems like a petty reason.

 

Oh well. Ceorlic's untrustworthy for other reasons. That's why I made sure to emphasize the other guy's words.

[Xetykins]

Wow at this nitpicking. My other reasons are: his " Eamon is not dead. More's the pity" comment. Pretty callous imho. He is a jealous and bitter old man. And judging by his comments, he is his father's son. Treasonous being.

And no i dont like ceorlic because he kisses loghain's tush but because of the above. If you think its petty then, im sorry, i can't help you there.

[Merle McClure II]

Although I tend to agree that Alistair's claim is fairly weak and wonder whether or not Bryce would have believed it or not, I'm not so convinced that he'd have supported Anora, but even if he did I think his hand would have been forced by the aftermath of Loghain seizing the throne from Anora. For all of her supposed political savvy and support from the Nobles her inability to stop Loghain says something.

 

 

As for the "Better Loghain than a Bastard" quote, that way I heard that it spoke more towards Alistair's fitness for the crown then support for Loghain/Anora, something which Bryce doesn't have to deal with.  

[dragonflight288]

I'm not sure if Bryce would or wouldn't side with Loghain. We only see him for a limited time and most of it is family interaction. 

 

We do know he was offered the crown once and turned it down. 

 

For all we know, he may have stepped forward and made a claim himself in the absence of a Therein heir, and he would've had plenty of support. 

[TEWR]

Wow at this nitpicking. My other reasons are: his " Eamon is not dead. More's the pity" comment. Pretty callous imho. He is a jealous and bitter old man. And judging by his comments, he is his father's son. Treasonous being.

And no i dont like ceorlic because he kisses loghain's tush but because of the above. If you think its petty then, im sorry, i can't help you there.

 

To be fair to Ceorlic, his lands are on the border of Loghain's and he's scared out of his mind because his father, who betrayed the queen, was killed for such an act and he's afraid of what might happen if he doesn't stay on Loghain's side.

 

Which I don't think Loghain would do anything to the man himself, but Ceorlic's not willing to take that chance.

[TEWR]

Although I tend to agree that Alistair's claim is fairly weak and wonder whether or not Bryce would have believed it or not, I'm not so convinced that he'd have supported Anora, but even if he did I think his hand would have been forced by the aftermath of Loghain seizing the throne from Anora. For all of her supposed political savvy and support from the Nobles her inability to stop Loghain says something.

 

 

As for the "Better Loghain than a Bastard" quote, that way I heard that it spoke more towards Alistair's fitness for the crown then support for Loghain/Anora, something which Bryce doesn't have to deal with.  

 

Inability has nothing to do with it. Loghain never removed Anora from power but rather claimed himself her Regent, his rationale being that with Cailan's death and the power vacuum opening up not only would a Civil War brew but Anora might be deposed (and thus executed). Anora allows him to do this because it's the smart thing to do. He has the larger force under his command, is well loved by the people, and is more likely to come out ahead should war break out.

 

What she does is side with him because if she goes against him openly, not only does it deprive her of her father's forces and the skills he possesses, but it also increases the instability going on. People would see Anora going against him and think that they needed to rise up. And without Loghain's forces what would happen? She could ride out to the Bannorn and side with them, but they're too fractured to do anything. Literally. You will hear of how the Banns will fight amongst one another and get curbstomped, or on the rare occasions when they would work together and beat Loghain it was a Pyrrhic victory and the Darkspawn beat them.

 

Eamon was a voice of unity for them, and while Anora is loved by the people the Banns are not as inclined to side with her. Many love her, many dislike her. There's no guarantee they'd follow her, and even if they did chances are they'd still get their asses handed to them by the veteran tactician with a larger army.

 

So she sided with her father which was best, both for her and the nation, as it would show that the powers-that-be are aligned. Despite the accusations hurled against Loghain that he took the crown for himself, Anora never contested it. She was okay with it, because she had to be. Yet the Bannorn, due to Teagan, rises up against the crown and in so doing should be branded traitors.

 

Much as I like Teagan he is a short-sighted idiot. Altruistic, yes, but short-sighted. His own codex said he rarely deals with the political aspects of court and in fact often hunted with Cailan instead.

 

All things considered, what she did was the best thing she could do. She sided with Loghain hoping it would help keep the peace and did damage control in the meanwhile (as you find that she's trying to get the Bannorn to stop fighting, but they refuse to believe Anora's the one saying these things)

[Xetykins]

To be fair to Ceorlic, his lands are on the border of Loghain's and he's scared out of his mind because his father, who betrayed the king, was killed for such an act and he's afraid of what might happen if he doesn't stay on Loghain's side.
 
Which I don't think Loghain would do anything to the man himself, but Ceorlic's not willing to take that chance.

King? I thought it was queen moira his father led to slaughter house.

[TEWR]

Sorry, mind thought one thing and hands thought another. I meant Queen Moira yes (and as I typed out her name, it went Moria dammit )

[Merle McClure II]

Sounds like semetics to me, and either way you cut it at the end of the day Loghain holds all of the power and he seized said power from his own daughter.

[dragonflight288]

Sounds like semetics to me, and either way you cut it at the end of the day Loghain holds all of the power and he seized said power from his own daughter.

 

With her permission, as Queen. 

[Merle McClure II]

Sounds more like Anora was forced aside in what was supposed to be the final bloodless stage of the coup to me.

 

 

"Step aside daughter or the Banns will eat you alive." is a quick summary of TEWR's post.

[dragonflight288]

Sounds more like Anora was forced aside in what was supposed to be the final bloodless stage of the coup to me.

 

 

"Step aside daughter or the Banns will eat you alive." is a quick summary of TEWR's post.

 

Or can be seen as 

 

"I should support my father in an attempt to keep everyone from killing each other in the middle of a blight."

[Merle McClure II]

Except that "supporting her father" involves allowing him to needlessly seize her Throne if we are to believe that all these years she was "really" the political powerhouse behind Calian's rule.

 

 

As for trying to play "The Blight Card" ... yeah, Loghain's power grab only made that issue worse.   

[dragonflight288]

He never seized her throne, he was never crowned or made King, merely Regent. 

 

And Loghain tried to unite the nobility to fight the darkspawn. Teagan kept that from happening because of short-sighted altruism. 

[Merle McClure II]

Once again semetics, as "merely Regent" he had the full power of the Throne, whether that meant waging a needless civil war or locking "Queen" Anora in a virtual prison. --- Oh and if I remember correctly, Loghain did have a crown planned if not actually finished.

 

 

And once again, there would have been nothing for Teagan to rebel against had Loghain not made his rather pointless power grab, everything Regent Loghain can do Queen Anora can do better while preventing the Civil War in the first place. 

[Xetykins]

Not to mention that loghain has already declared himself as king when his close cronies tried to bully orzammar into letting them in for "king loghain" I doubt very much that anyone would dare declare him king behind his back specially when anora is still queen.
And if they did that behind his back, theres really not much that loghain is in control of. He's really just bungling along used and not respected by his men and howe.

[TEWR]

Once again semetics, as "merely Regent" he had the full power of the Throne, whether that meant waging a needless civil war or locking "Queen" Anora in a virtual prison. --- Oh and if I remember correctly, Loghain did have a crown planned if not actually finished.

 

 

And once again, there would have been nothing for Teagan to rebel against had Loghain not made his rather pointless power grab, everything Regent Loghain can do Queen Anora can do better while preventing the Civil War in the first place. 

 

Much as I like Anora and believe she's a great politician, I really doubt she would've been able to prevent the Civil War. The Civil War would've happened regardless. There was a power vacuum in place because Cailan died without an heir or a named successor. Nobles would've taken advantage of the power vacuum to grab the power for themselves and the war would be very much a clusterfuck as it is in-game.

 

The Civil War wasn't just the Regency vs. the Rebels, there were also those who aimed to get their own take of the treasure through the chaos and people who (no doubt) wished to remain neutral. Had Loghain not been declared Regent, people would still be divided. Ignacio tells you the Civil War brought many old grudges to a boil.

 

It would've been the same thing. War was inevitable I think, and once they fell to petty infighting it would take an exceptional leader to be able to bring them back into line. And Anora, capable though she is, doesn't strike me as extraordinarily so.

 

For that matter, had Loghain done nothing I'm willing to bet Eamon would've still put Alistair forward as a candidate, as he (Eamon) has a thinly veiled scheme in place to make him the power behind the throne. And that wouldn't have helped matters at all. It would've made things worse.

 

That isn't to say that had Anora and Loghain worked together things wouldn't have worked, but Anora on her own wouldn't have been able to do everything I feel. She is a great queen and a shrewd politician, but I do not think she is a master politician.

[Merle McClure II]

I tend to agree with you that Eamon would have wanted his own personal puppet on the throne regardless, but without "Regent/King Loghain" to rally against I think that Eamon would have realized that the natural bias against putting a "blow by" on the throne would have scuttled the plan. 

 

I also tend to agree that there would have been rumblings and discontent from the Banns at Anora remaining Queen (Which is why I think Bryce would have ended up with the throne had Loghain/Howe not conspired to assassinate him.) but the fact remains that the Loghain's power grab was the catalyst that allowed the Banns to raise up in open revolt and the Master Crow's comment seems to me to be a general observation of the Civil War (I'm sure that you know as well as I do that it's common for people to take advantage of open chaos and warfare to settle old scores.) as opposed to making a statement that war was unavoidable with Calian's death. --- Remember we know that the instant the Landsmeet settles the issue of who holds the crown the Civil War just ... ends. (Yes I understand there are a few minor aftershocks according to the apparently non-Canon end slides.)