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[TEWR]

To be honest we should just agree that in the end Bioware knows **** about political storytelling and how to properly do it, since we can see it all the plot holes poking through the story.

 

 

I'm sure that you know as well as I do that it's common for people to take advantage of open chaos and warfare to settle old scores

 

Of course. I just meant by the inclusion of Ignacio's statement how far things had in fact escalated once war broke out. Once old wounds are reopened it's hard for a politician to get them to heal again.

 

However, I would hazard a guess that how things would progress is that nobles would argue with their neighbors about who should be ruling, and opinions would differ (from Anora to Bryce to personal power grabs etc.). Opinions would then get wildly out of control and into very confrontational methods of arguing where the old wounds are reopened, which would eventually spill out into a war that grows and grows because you'd have nobles trying to figure out where they should stand as the nobles that are fighting do so nearby. Should they help this one or that one? What about their lands? What about the repercussions?

 

What I'm saying is it'd start small but escalate. These are the same folk who would start a war over a tree. Thinking logically isn't their strong suit.

 

Civil War was probably inevitable. And I'm not saying that because of Ignacio's statements, but Ignacio's comments would factor into the inevitability.

 

Cailan had set up a situation that, should he have died (which he did), would've created political instability no matter what. He had no named heir or successor despite knowing full well who Alistair was (as Anora tells us). Indeed, while on the surface sending Alistair to the Tower is smart -- since no one could've predicted the Tower would be taken -- it's actually kinda stupid because he didn't name Alistair his successor.

 

Which would've at least given Eamon some shred of proof of Alistair's lineage rather then just his word alone.

 

 

I tend to agree with you that Eamon would have wanted his own personal puppet on the throne regardless, but without "Regent/King Loghain" to rally against I think that Eamon would have realized that the natural bias against putting a "blow by" on the throne would have scuttled the plan. 

 

 

That depends on how strong Fereldan traditionalist and nationalist sentiments are for the nobility, as we only have a little bit to go off of from the few nobles we interact with. Riverdales said that there has never been a bastard on the throne before Alistair, so the nobles in the Gnawed Noble Tavern tell us. But Anora, well loved by the people that she is, is not universally loved by the nobility -- who tend to chide the idea of a "commoner" taking the throne and her commoner father taking a position of high authority.

 

Loghain's a hero to the people of Ferelden but there would be some blue bloods who would take offense at him being a Teyrn.

 

 

Which is why I think Bryce would have ended up with the throne had Loghain/Howe not conspired to assassinate him.

 

I still disagree with that (especially the Loghain being involved bit as I recall a very clear confirmation that he wasn't, rather then the vague "As for Loghain's association with Howe" post from Gaider that's often reposted), since Bryce is an ardent royalist. Even if he was offered the crown I think he'd refuse again.

 

AT MOST I could see him maybe putting forth his youngest child (if male) as a potential spouse for Anora after Ostagar, since the HN wouldn't be there and he would've been and seen the chaos firsthand and whatnot.

 

Best of both worlds, and really the more shrewd option.

[Merle McClure II]

To me the entire Ferelden political scene makes more sense if one realizes that they really never rose above their barbarian roots, the fancy clothes are just a thin varnish that rubbed off from their pseudo Roman oppressors. I tend to imagine the pre-occupied Landmeets as looking like the scene from Disney's Brave or perhaps the Vikings Docudrama. -- I do tend to agree that Bioware didn't really put much effort into the political aspect of the game. In fact I tend to get the feeling that the various writers were all working from different drafts of the storyboard and that whosever job it was to mesh everything together simply "phoned it in". 

 

 

As for "Loghain per Word of Gaidar", although I would like to see the actual posts you remember simply to see them, I personally tend to discount "Word of Gaidar" as not being worth the paper it's printed on, especially after all of the other clumsy and frankly unnecessary retcons. (It's not just Gaidar, I feel the same way about any author who can't leave a finished work alone and has to keep retconning things.)

 

 

As for Bryce I guess I see him being an "ardent royalist" in the sense that he's loyal to the Therin Bloodline/Marric more then being beholden to the abstract concept of the Throne itself. He says nice things about Calian but as far as I remember never even mentions Anora who is supposedly the power behind the Throne. Although I also don't see the supposed "Mary Sue, Perfectly Enlightened" that some people do with the Coustlands, I see a close knit and loving family and a quite frankly spoiled/pampered "Baby of the Family" who is forced to "sink or swim" when Duncan throws them into the deep end of the pool.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

To me the entire Ferelden political scene makes more sense if one realizes that they really never rose above their barbarian roots, the fancy clothes are just a thin varnish that rubbed off from their pseudo Roman oppressors. I tend to imagine the pre-occupied Landmeets as looking like the scene from Disney's Brave or perhaps the Vikings Docudrama. -- I do tend to agree that Bioware didn't really put much effort into the political aspect of the game. In fact I tend to get the feeling that the various writers were all working from different drafts of the storyboard and that whosever job it was to mesh everything together simply "phoned it in". 

 

 

As for "Loghain per Word of Gaidar", although I would like to see the actual posts you remember simply to see them, I personally tend to discount "Word of Gaidar" as not being worth the paper it's printed on, especially after all of the other clumsy and frankly unnecessary retcons. (It's not just Gaidar, I feel the same way about any author who can't leave a finished work alone and has to keep retconning things.)

Here is the one where he says that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar for reasons other than because he planned to kill Cailan. (Which really seems to make about as much sense as any other explanation.)

[Merle McClure II]

Umm ... unless he's quoted elsewhere in that thread, I only see a cut up quote that someone attributes to Gaidar that just says that Loghain had already begun to act against Calian pre-Ostagar. I remember the quote that you dug up in the other thread though, neither of which actually clears Loghain of the Highever Slaughter.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Umm ... unless he's quoted elsewhere in that thread, I only see a cut up quote that someone attributes to Gaidar that just says that Loghain had already begun to act against Calian pre-Ostagar. I remember the quote that you dug up in the other thread though, neither of which actually clears Loghain of the Highever Slaughter.

I'd thought I was linking you directly to a quote that said... exactly what I'd said it said. Only the function to link directly to that quote doesn't seem to work. The quote is on page 18 of that thread; if Ctrl+F works on your browser search for "436."

[Merle McClure II]

Thank you for pointing them out, although to me at least, reading the way that Gaider describes Loghain as basically being a cold and calculating Chess Player still leaves me wondering exactly what Gaider thought Loghain was prepared to do in this future battle he was preparing for. (If he was prepared for Eamon to possibly die as a "prep" than I still think that it couldn't have been good for Calian's wellbeing.)  

 

 

At the very least those who take Word of God to heart has to admit that although he didn't decide to actually pull the trigger until the beacon was lit he did in fact lay the groundwork to be able to order his men not to light the beacon at all. --- Seems to me that this order could be used to as a basis to explain the soldier claiming that he was ordered to retreat pior to the battle. Also makes me wonder how such a message would have been relayed and how Loghain would have decided whether or not to charge. 

[dragonflight288]

Here is the one where he says that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar for reasons other than because he planned to kill Cailan. (Which really seems to make about as much sense as any other explanation.)

 

All righty then. 

 

Doesn't make sense to me, but unless Gaider says otherwise, I simply have to accept it. 

[Merle McClure II]

No you don't actually, especially since even Gaider prefaces his own post with a "if it doesn't appear in the game it doesn't actually count" disclaimer as well as a "this is only how he sees Loghain". (Which leads me to believe that Loghain must be an issue of disagreement amongst the writers themselves, which actually explains a lot.)

 

Besides, even if Gaider were to post something countering his old posts then how would that increase his creditability as opposed to destroying it?   

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

If he was prepared for Eamon to possibly die as a "prep" than I still think that it couldn't have been good for Calian's wellbeing.

I am inclined to think Cailan's wellbeing was safe (in plan A, anyway.) It's his authority that I think Loghain was planning to massively undercut.

[Merle McClure II]

Perhaps but I'm not quite sure how Loghain undermining Calian's authority could have ended any better for the young King or the nation at large.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Perhaps but I'm not quite sure how Loghain undermining Calian's authority could have ended any better for the young King or the nation at large.

It wouldn't necessarily have required killing him (indeed killing him would have been very bad for Loghain given how questionable Anora's claim to authority is without him), and we've seen what sorts of decisions Cailan tends to make.

[Merle McClure II]

Oh I agree that publicly killing the King would not end well for Loghain, but I don't see Loghain managing to force Calian to back down otherwise, Calian's biggest fault is that he's a glory hound and has an inflated sense of his own abilities.

[dragonflight288]

Perhaps but I'm not quite sure how Loghain undermining Calian's authority could have ended any better for the young King or the nation at large.

 

It wouldn't hurt Loghain. Talk to Alistair after recruiting and but before meeting up with Duncan again, and even Alistair says we should be listening to Loghain and not Cailan. The soldiers are saying that, Duncan implied it and it's pretty clear that Loghain and Cailan have been arguing for days on Cailan being on the front lines as well as the need for Orlesians. 

 

And Eamon's forces could've been there in less than a week and Cailan didn't want to wait for them, dismissing Eamon as wanting in on the glory. 

 

Had Cailan not died, and ran away from the front lines, well it's impossible to say what would've happened, but one of two things would happen. 

 

1. Loghain would be executed and Cailan would become the new general (Maker help us all)

2. Cailan loses a lot of support because he was an idiot. 

 

I think the second one would be more likely considering the nature of Ferelden politics. 

[Merle McClure II]

Perhaps, but my comment was addressing what Loghain's original plan was before Ostagar happened.

[Xetykins]

It wouldn't hurt Loghain. Talk to Alistair after recruiting and but before meeting up with Duncan again, and even Alistair says we should be listening to Loghain and not Cailan. The soldiers are saying that, Duncan implied it and it's pretty clear that Loghain and Cailan have been arguing for days on Cailan being on the front lines as well as the need for Orlesians. 
 
And Eamon's forces could've been there in less than a week and Cailan didn't want to wait for them, dismissing Eamon as wanting in on the glory. 
 
Had Cailan not died, and ran away from the front lines, well it's impossible to say what would've happened, but one of two things would happen. 
 
1. Loghain would be executed and Cailan would become the new general (Maker help us all)
2. Cailan loses a lot of support because he was an idiot. 
 
I think the second one would be more likely considering the nature of Ferelden politics.

I must have totally missed Alistair telling my pc to listen to loghain not Cailan. When did he say that precisely?

On not waiting for Eamon's forces i think Eirene's post a few pages back sums it all more coherently than i could ever hope to try. There is no waiting. Darkpawn dont just stop because you are not ready. Not that Eamon's forces are coming anyway, so it does not make a diff.

Cailan ran away from the frontlines? Thats news to me.

1. Loghain was alive and its even more "maker help us all"
2. Cailan would not loose support because he would be right. He would be the major witness against loghain and will unite ferelden under 1 common cause, the darkspawn. Unlike loghain where there's at least 2. Power and orlesians on top of my head.

[TEWR]

 

I must have totally missed Alistair telling my pc to listen to loghain not Cailan. When did he say that precisely?

 

In Ostagar, before the battle but after you meet him. You get the chance to talk with him about the battle and he'll tell you Cailan only wants his spot in history while Loghain is the one who's really seeing them through the battles.

 

 

Cailan ran away from the frontlines? Thats news to me.

 

He was saying had Cailan run away from the front lines -- that is to say, if Cailan had escaped the battle somehow when it all went south.

 

 

2. Cailan would not loose support because he would be right. He would be the major witness against loghain and will unite ferelden under 1 common cause, the darkspawn. Unlike loghain where there's at least 2. Power and orlesians on top of my head.

 

Cailan tried that already, yet he made a ******-poor attempt at it when he denied much needed forces all because he had a spat with Eamon a year prior.

 

 

On not waiting for Eamon's forces i think Eirene's post a few pages back sums it all more coherently than i could ever hope to try. There is no waiting. Darkpawn dont just stop because you are not ready. Not that Eamon's forces are coming anyway, so it does not make a diff.

 

If Eamon's forces were sent a message telling them to arrive, then logistically the battle would change to one not of offense (which is how Cailan wanted it) but to defense until they arrive.

 

Ostagar's a fortress. Fortresses are meant to be garrisoned from the inside. Cailan of course wouldn't want that (as you hear from his royal guard say he wants a battle the bards will sing of for centuries, and defensive campaigns are not bard-material unless they're like the Alamo).

 

Soren from Fire Emblem has an apt quote on the nature of fortresses:

 

The enemy did not build the fortress so they could stand outside of it.

 

It wouldn't make any sense for the Tevinter Imperium to have attacked the barbarian tribes of the Wilds outside of the safety of the walls of Ostagar. Loghain only does so because he has to work with an assumption on the horde's strength and an idiot manchild of a king's vain demands for what the battle should be.

 

That's really one of the things that pisses me off about Cailan. He doesn't give a damn about the lives of his men (if he did, he'd go for the battle strategies that would save lives, not look dashing and heroic) and he only cares about himself.

 

If the guy had been willing to deal with the Blight through strategy, I guarantee he still would've gotten a place in history (a better one then he has now anyway). The king who led his one nation against the Blight and triumphed.

[dragonflight288]

I must have totally missed Alistair telling my pc to listen to loghain not Cailan. When did he say that precisely?

On not waiting for Eamon's forces i think Eirene's post a few pages back sums it all more coherently than i could ever hope to try. There is no waiting. Darkpawn dont just stop because you are not ready. Not that Eamon's forces are coming anyway, so it does not make a diff.

Cailan ran away from the frontlines? Thats news to me.

1. Loghain was alive and its even more "maker help us all"
2. Cailan would not loose support because he would be right. He would be the major witness against loghain and will unite ferelden under 1 common cause, the darkspawn. Unlike loghain where there's at least 2. Power and orlesians on top of my head.

 

Cailan didn't run away, I just used a hypothetical in the event he turned out like Carver and Aveline. 

 

And let's face it, we're talking about a group of nobles who'll declare war on each other over a tree. And the king at the Landsmeet generally has to persuade them to get certain agenda's done in the kingdom, he doesn't truly command them. 

 

And I think the battle could've been delayed, or at least held fast in a stronger position for longer periods of time with less men dying had they decided to hole up in the fortress proper and let the darkspawn come to them. Daveth says they started camping on the edge of the wilds to draw out the darkspawn, dangling meat in front of the bear is the metaphor he uses. This implies that the King and Loghain are deliberately drawing the darkspawn from the wild and into their position, likely because it is so defensible. 

 

Had Cailan survived Ostagar, there wouldn't be a war for succession of the throne, and maybe Anora or Loghain could've got their armies from the bannorn rather than be busy fighting them, but it's hard to say what would happen then considering the nature of politics and in Ferelden the crown doesn't have ultimate power. 

[Xetykins]

In Ostagar, before the battle but after you meet him. You get the chance to talk with him about the battle and he'll tell you Cailan only wants his spot in history while Loghain is the one who's really seeing them through the battles.
 

 
He was saying had Cailan run away from the front lines -- that is to say, if Cailan had escaped the battle somehow when it all went south.
 

 
Cailan tried that already, yet he made a ******-poor attempt at it when he denied much needed forces all because he had a spat with Eamon a year prior.
 

 
If Eamon's forces were sent a message telling them to arrive, then logistically the battle would change to one not of offense (which is how Cailan wanted it) but to defense until they arrive.
 
Ostagar's a fortress. Fortresses are meant to be garrisoned from the inside. Cailan of course wouldn't want that (as you hear from his royal guard say he wants a battle the bards will sing of for centuries, and defensive campaigns are not bard-material unless they're like the Alamo).
 
Soren from Fire Emblem has an apt quote on the nature of fortresses:
 
The enemy did not build the fortress so they could stand outside of it.
 
It wouldn't make any sense for the Tevinter Imperium to have attacked the barbarian tribes of the Wilds outside of the safety of the walls of Ostagar. Loghain only does so because he has to work with an assumption on the horde's strength and an idiot manchild of a king's vain demands for what the battle should be.
 
That's really one of the things that pisses me off about Cailan. He doesn't give a damn about the lives of his men (if he did, he'd go for the battle strategies that would save lives, not look dashing and heroic) and he only cares about himself.
 
If the guy had been willing to deal with the Blight through strategy, I guarantee he still would've gotten a place in history (a better one then he has now anyway). The king who led his one nation against the Blight and triumphed.

Aha. Now i read it again i got what hes saying about cailan and battle.

But on Eamon's forces i still don't know what you want Cailan to do when the darkspawn are already attacking. Tell them to take a time out while they wait for the rest of the forces? Also the reality is that Eamon's forces are not coming. Specially the orlesian wardens. There are no reinforcements at all, thanks to loghain. So even if Cailan decided to wait, it wont do anything good, the darkspawn would still attack them to get out of the wilds and that means there will still be battle to fight like right then and there. And they have been winning until loghain decided to bolt. As i said, Eirene explained it better than i ever could.

Having said that, i just realized those may have been loghains tactical shining moment. Cuz once he ran, they lost.

[TEWR]

 

But on Eamon's forces i still don't know what you want Cailan to do when the darkspawn are already attacking. Tell them to take a time out while they wait for the rest of the forces?

 

As I said, send word to Eamon and have the forces hole up in the fortress and use it the way it was meant to be used. Like a fortress. With people on the inside of it.

 

Attacking the enemies that are on the outside of it.

 

Again, think Helm's Deep. How much sense would it make for the forces of Men and Elves to have fought the Uruk-Hai from the other side (in the open fields) simply because the Uruk-Hai were attacking them, as opposed to where they did fight them (which was with a couple of walls between them.

 

 

Also the reality is that Eamon's forces are not coming. Specially the orlesian wardens.

 

Uh... Eamon's forces aren't the Orlesian Wardens.

 

And if Duncan brings word that they can arrive in a week, then that means they can come if they receive word to move out.

 

 

There are no reinforcements at all, thanks to loghain.

 

Cailan's the one who refused the reinforcements from Eamon. Repeatedly, in fact.

 

Loghain never outright refused Orlesian assistance during Ostagar. He just took issue with it. He didn't ban their assistance until after Ostagar, and even then he sought the help of the Dwarves, the Circle of Magi, and even the Free Marches (who themselves didn't really want to help aside from Lord Harriman).

 

 

So even if Cailan decided to wait, it wont do anything good, the darkspawn would still attack them to get out of the wilds and that means there will still be battle to fight like right then and there.

 

Of course there'd still be a battle. I'm not contesting that. I'm saying Cailan should have sent word to Eamon to move out (which would take a while to get to him mind you) and nonetheless should have fought the Darkspawn from the other side of the fortress. Not in the open field, but from the fortress itself.

 

The very point of a fortress is to be garrisoned by soldiers and protect them from an assault. It does little good if you do what Cailan wanted to do and fight your enemies outside the safety of the fortress.

 

If he had done that, casualties would have been far less and the Darkspawn might have been driven back allowing them to regroup. The Tower of Ishal would not have been so easily taken (in fact, it would not have figured at all into the plans other then having it defended).

 

Think of it this way. 100 archers stand atop a wall, each carrying 50 arrows. The enemy numbers ten thousand and are below the archers and need to scale the walls somehow (say ladders). If those 100 archers fire all 50 of their arrows each and hit the mark (the head, the neck, the chest, etc.) then that means that you have just taken care of 5000 enemy troops, assuming the enemy army is not scaling the wall.

 

Now imagine the wall in question is hundreds of feet up. Gonna be harder to be scaled (also harder to fire accurately, but meh).

 

Seems to be a sound strategy, no?

 

Now imagine your archers are in a valley with enemy troops charging towards them on the same level. They're not gonna last long at all.

 

And yet that last one is exactly what Cailan did.

 

And they have been winning until loghain decided to bolt. As i said, Eirene explained it better than i ever could.

Having said that, i just realized those may have been loghains tactical shining moment. Cuz once he ran, they lost.

 

Have you seen the image of the Darkspawn strength before? It goes all the way to the ass-end of the Wilds. If you think they could've stood against that when they were really believing the Darkspawn numbers were less, then I dunno what to think.

 

[Xetykins]

IIRC Eamon's lot was sent an errand to find the holy grail. They werent at ostagar were they? Since he's apparently been poisoned by then. Or did they specifically say anything in the game where the forces are? Musta missed it. Alistair said at flemeth's hut that his forces were not at ostagar and next we knew isolde's sent them on a needle in a haystack mission.

Yeah they showed a visual on the darkspawn. Still they did not show the other side as well since all except eamon and howe did not take theirs.

And just so im clear. It was actually a form of praise on loghain when i said it showed his tactical xp winning battles. Shows without him it went ape sht

[Ashevajak]

I rather got the impression that Bryce and Loghain would not have been on best terms.

 

During the Human Noble origin, there was some discussion about friends of the Couslands in Orlais.  I cant remember the exact wording, and I'm not on my own computer, so I can't really check the exact phrasing, but I've often wondered if that was an artefact which was going to tie into a (cut) plot where Howe used Loghain's paranoia to convince him the Couslands were part of this "Orlesian plot" to undermine Ferelden, and thus justify his own conquest of their land.  Loghain would then either convince the King of the plot or...well, take the other option.

 

Because, let's be honest, pretty much anything makes more sense than what actually happened in game.

[Merle McClure II]

Only if you believe that Howe and Loghain weren't already working together when the game first started. Believe that the two of them were plotting and putting everything together for a while and used what happened at Ostagar as a convenient excuse to do what they were already planning and things "magically" fall into place ... almost as if it were planned that way.  

[TEWR]

During the Human Noble origin, there was some discussion about friends of the Couslands in Orlais.  I cant remember the exact wording, and I'm not on my own computer, so I can't really check the exact phrasing, but I've often wondered if that was an artefact which was going to tie into a (cut) plot where Howe used Loghain's paranoia to convince him the Couslands were part of this "Orlesian plot" to undermine Ferelden, and thus justify his own conquest of their land.

 

 

Indeed, that's what I am led to believe is the actual case, as for Howe to have done what he did he would've had to have been planning his attack before news of the Blight even happened. And Loghain would have had no incentive to ally with Howe before the Blight came about. The Blight was just Howe's smokescreen.

 

As for the Couslands, they visited minor nobility in the game -- which is a decent starting point to making peace between the nations, starting small -- but Bryce didn't seem to care much for the Orlesians ("At least the smell will be the same") and Eleanor is dismissive of Orlesians also (I am no Orlesian wallflower!").

 

I think they're politically savvy enough to know that Ferelden can't harbor a grudge against Orlais forever, but still don't care much for Orlesians in general. And that's a subtlety that is lost on Howe.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Bryce definitely would have stood against Loghain, and I'm certain that Loghain knew it. He also knew that Bryce would have gotten the support of the Landsmeet over him, so I'm almost entirely convinced that Howe's betrayal of the Couslands was part of a larger scheme. In my personal headcanon (which I'm also employing on my Origins novelization The Grey Path), Loghain actually makes a concerted effort to remove any potential rivals from play before he betrays Cailan; in addition to butchering the Couslands and poisoning Eamon, he also ensures that those nobles at Ostagar loyal to him are placed in his flanking force, while those who stand with Cailan, like Arl Urien of Denerim, are sent into the gorge to die.

[Han Shot First]

Loghain & Howe's actions only make sense if there was a plot to betray Cailan in place before Ostagar, and if the two were in cahoots before Howe betrays the Couslands and Loghain betrays the king. That's why I choose to ignore comments made by the devs about Loghain  & Howe long after DA:O released. The word of god retcons turn both into characters making rash decisions without much forethought or planning.

 

Loghain needs the Couslands out of the way in order to seize control of the kingdom following Cailan' death. Howe needs his betrayal of the Couslands to get royal sanction (and for the Teyrnir of Highever to be bestowed upon him), which can't happen if Cailan still lives, as the king would have had him hung, drawn, and quartered for it. That IMO, points to some cooperation and pre-planning on both their parts. The alternative is that the two of them are idiots who would have self-destructed in short order, had they not caught a lucky break and by some magical coincidence...timed their respective betrayals to coincide.