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[Master Warder Z_]

I'm confused how did this become a Dalish thread?

 

It's unimportant now, the discussion is over.

[Willowhugger]

 

Based off the nearly millenium of the Chantry's history, the precedent would be... nothing. The Chantry has never initiated a religious war against non-Andrastians for the purpose of conversion.

 

This is kind of splitting hairs as Emperor Drakon used the Chantry to solidify his empire.

Likewise, the Dalish invasion had a lot of justifications but the end result was conversion of the heathens.

[The Hierophant]

I'm confused how did this become a Dalish thread?

A Dalish fan probably complained about the possibility of their Dalish Inquisitor professing Andrastian beliefs against their wishes.

Though i wonder about the benefits of being a Herald of Andraste?

[Willowhugger]

A Dalish fan probably complained about the possibility of their Dalish Inquisitor professing Andrastian beliefs against their wishes.

Though i wonder about the benefits of being a Herald of Andraste?

I suspect there's a prophecy involved.

Which would explain why everyone is spontaneously agreeing you're something.

[The Hierophant]

I suspect there's a prophecy involved.

Which would explain why everyone is spontaneously agreeing you're something.

I think it's mostly from the pc surviving the disaster in the the game's prologue, and the glowing green hand bit too.

[Keroko]

That makes no sense in this setting. This isn't the real world. The Chantry does not have the beliefs you are trying to force onto them. Being a martyr is one thing, but without actual evidence that people are willing to die for no reason, even though we've seen multitudes to the contrary even in our own world, you have no point.

No? How often are we told that if people die in service of the Maker they will find themselves at his side after death? Quite often.
 

No it's really not. A herald is also a sign of something to come. Of course I'm sure you have a dictionary, or at least an internet connection, so you could have looked that up before saying this.

... I do poses a dictionary, which tells me that a herald represents that which its full title depicts. When used to connotation with change, the title of herald would be done alongside said change. "Herald of winter" "herald of the apocalypse" that kind of stuff. When used to connotation with a person, it signifies that the herald represents this person and speaks for him or her.

Since you are "the herald of Andraste" rather than "the herald of something to come" you represent Andraste. Which means, by dictionary definition of herald, you speak for Andraste.
 

What you said is that they would hear stories and these stories would motivate them not to be a herald for the Chantry. The Tal-Vashoth would have no problem with doing anything for the right price. This is why they are Tal-Vashoth.

 

I said could, not would. Could as in it leaves the option of how for or against the Chantry your qunari is up to the player.

And I stand by that opinion. The Tal-Vashoth fled the restricting life of the Qun. Your inquisitor grew up with stories about the Qun. This could, if the player chose so, be a perfectly valid motivation for the qunari inquisitor not to be comfortable with the Chantry.
 

Except nobody believes this. I see no reason why Sten would lie about the strength or the qunari, nor do I see how Tevinter holding off small raids would impact the Qunari significantly considering they, unlike Iraq, are industrialized and run an efficient society. Par Vollen is likely the most prosperous at least state wise, of all nations in Thedas.

Oh, you misunderstand. Tevinter is Iraq in this case. The qunari the USA. The Tevinter keeping the qunari occupied forces them to spend military resources there. Sten doesn't have to lie about the strength of the qunari, he just has to believe it. I'll note that the qunari haven't crushed the Tevinter, despite being at open war with them and the Tevinter never having signed the Llomerryn Accord. Despite all their bluster, they obviously don't hold military superiority enough to win the war against the Tevinter effortlessly.
 

That's not what the Chant is saying. The Chant is saying that the Chant must be sung from everywhere, not that everyone must sing it.

That is exactly what "sing the chant of light in the four corners of Thedas" means. The Chant of Light dictates that everyone who worships gods other than the Maker is a sinner, and the entire point of the Chantry is to absolve the children of creation of all sin and regain the Maker's favour. To leave people worshipping other gods would work against their goal.

But let's be blissfully positive and assume you're right. The Chantry still calls everyone who believes in gods other than the maker sinners. This does not encourage living together peacefully. Rather the opposite, it encourages animosity.
 

And considering these same people are the ones who gave the elves the Dales to begin with, I doubt they would waste the effort in trying to take it back without a bigger reason.

Nnnno, the Dalish were given the Dales by Maferath and Andraste's sons in 1025 TE, the Chantry didn't exist at the time (heck, the Cult of the Maker barely existed back then). The Chantry as we know it today wasn't properly formed until 1192 TE.
 

Thanks for proving my point for me. The Chantry, as in its head, is stationed in Orlais. Realize that people who live in Rivain are a part of Rivain, regardless of what other organizations they belong to.

And the Orlesians and Orlesian before they are Chantry. Convenient how the organization that drove the people to commit atrocities can never be held accountable for them by your logic.

I myself do find they are partially responsible, because it wasn't just one madman here. At the very least the vast majority of the Rivain branch was leading the slaughter, so the Orlais headquarters clearly weren't doing a very good job of placing the proper people at the heads of the Rivain branch, or enforcing any rules that would have prevented this slaughter. If any such rules even exist.

But let's talk Orlais here. Did you know that the first Emperor of Orlais used the Maker to start holy wars to expand his empire's borders? Oh, and it was the Orlesian Chantry who decided to outlaw magic and create the Circle system. The same Orlesian Chantry also began destroying all portrayals of elves in Chantry imagery, censoring their involvement in the war that helped found the Cult of the Maker in the first place.

Not exactly a shining example of goodness, honesty and generosity either.
 

Tbh, the Dalish deserve to be seen as villains, is thanks to their kind that elves became what they are in modern times, the Dales were a perfect opportunity for elves to become great allies but instead they choose extreme isolation & hostility which ended in their destruction

Being an elf is suffering, given how coexistence without isolation is impossible for elves. Elves need isolation, because without isolation they will quite simply go extinct over a couple of centuries as any child born of a human and elf bonding will reduce the elven genepool more and more.

It's an interesting twist of fate when you realize that the alienages who's goal was to alienate the elves and lower their status actually helped preserve the elves.
 

Funny about how well they seem to get on with the dwarves then.

Until you actually manage to get a Chantry in Orzammar started. Barely a decade later the Chantry is attacked and the Divine gets to contemplating an Exalted March on Orzammar.

Relationships between the Chantry and Dwarfs is "they provide us with lyrium, so we leave them alone." Disturbing this status quo proved to be inadvisable.
 

I see nothing wrong with any of that.

You don't see anything wrong with a religion that has "crush all other religions and convert everyone to ours because we believe it's the only way our god will look at us again" as one of its tenets as something wrong?

[raging_monkey]

Oh, sorry. Kinda difficult to detect sarcasm on the internet sometimes

just remember this "if a monkey makes stops joking then its bad" im rarly serious

[Master Warder Z_]

You don't see anything wrong with a religion that has "crush all other religions and convert everyone to ours because we believe it's the only way our god will look at us again" as one of its tenets as something wrong?

 

Nope.

 

For Various reasons.

[Willowhugger]

The thing to remember is also the Chantry is not a person. It's an organization of people.

 

The Chantry has fanatics who'd convert everyone by any means necessary.

The Chantry has liberals who are live and let live.

 

That's how religions work in RL too.

[AlexiaRevan]

So much for having a choice........

[Keroko]

Nope.
 
For Various reasons.

May I ask for those reasons?

[Willowhugger]

May I ask for those reasons?

It's something people call you because you did a miracle and word spreads faster than you can stamp it down.

It's like being the Dragonborn.

"I'm not the Dragonborn! I don't believe in Akatosh! I'm a Khajit!"

You just are in people's minds.

[Mistic]

Based off the nearly millenium of the Chantry's history, the precedent would be... nothing. The Chantry has never initiated a religious war against non-Andrastians for the purpose of conversion.

 

So unless you're Tevinter and in the process of seeing a slave-holding mageocracy usurp control of the country and defy key tenants of the international system, or launch a major religious war with a perceived unprovoked invasion of Andrastian land(s) with major deathtolls, the precedent is that you have nothing to fear from the Chantry. From other countries, including those aligned with the Chantry? More so.

 

I promise I will reserve my judgement on "conversion of non-Andrastians by the sword" until we know for sure what happened in the Dales and what consequences the Rivaini Chantry faced from their superiors after the purges. As for "conversion of No True Andrastians", I suppose Tevinter will have a different opinion.

 

By the way, finally managed to find a timeline about Tevinter's turn to magocracy (remember what we talked about if it was quickly or not?). Apart from WoT, the clue was the codex entry on the Imperial Chantry.

-3:87: The Divine asks the Imperial Chantry to conform to the Orlesian version of the Chant. Tevinter refuses. Joyous II declares the entire Tevinter clergy heretics. The Imperial Chantry answers by electing its own Divine, magister Valhail I.

-3:99. The White Divine dies. In Tevinter there's celebration. The new White Divine calls the new age "Black" to remind everyone of the false Divine.

-4.40: Start of the first of four Exalted Marches against Tevinter.

-5:10: The last Exalted March against Tevinter ends in retreat for Orlais.

-6:32-7:84: Qunari Wars.

-7:34: The election of Nomaran as Archon directly from the ranks of the enchanters marks the beginning of the Circle ruling Tevinter politics again. He dispenses the old rules forbidding mages from taking part in politics.

-8:11: By this year, the mages rule openly in Tevinter again. The Grand Enchanter always holds the title of Divine.

 

Lambert was right about the timeline.

[Willowhugger]

I see it like this.

Even if the Chantry did convert the Dalish by the sword, that just means that the Orlesian Chantry IN THAT TIME PERIOD and THAT PLACE were jackasses.

 

Ditto the Rivani purges.

 

Likewise, you can't claim Divine Justinia as an example of what the Church is like because she's one specific person in a much larger group.

So the Chantry has a lot to answer for but it's always important to remember the Chantry can have tendencies and policies but it can't be judged like it's a person.

[Shadow Fox]

It's something people call you because you did a miracle and word spreads faster than you can stamp it down.

It's like being the Dragonborn.

"I'm not the Dragonborn! I don't believe in Akatosh! I'm a Khajit!"

You just are in people's minds.

Bad example is bad.

[Mistic]

I see it like this.

Even if the Chantry did convert the Dalish by the sword, that just means that the Orlesian Chantry IN THAT TIME PERIOD and THAT PLACE were jackasses.

 

Ditto the Rivani purges.

 

Likewise, you can't claim Divine Justinia as an example of what the Church is like because she's one specific person in a much larger group.

So the Chantry has a lot to answer for but it's always important to remember the Chantry can have tendencies and policies but it can't be judged like it's a person.

 

I agree completely. History is a hard mistress, after all. Another thing is if people may share their theology or not, but that's a matter of faith.

[Willowhugger]

Bad example is bad.

 

I admit, I do feel bad for Dalish conservative Herald of Andraste.

 

You know they're going to dock his or her ears and portray them as a human Inquisitor in a couple of centuries.

 

Just like they portray Mage Hawk as a warrior in Kirkwall's statue of him/her.

[The Hierophant]

From what little we know of the title and it's origins the pc being labeled as such in an Andrastian dominated land seems natural. I wouldn't be surprised that if the event had taken place in non Andrastian territories that the pc would've been titled The Herald of Koslun/Stone/Mythal instead.

Aside from the glowing hand, the pc being labeled as HoA seems to justify why humans who are prominently Andrastian would follow a heathen Dalish elf or Qunari Inquistor. Though a Dwarf wouldn't need such a gimmick. Beards command respect.

Also, i doubt being a Herald of Andraste would mean being forced into being a Chantry faithful. Unless DG and gang are trolling or don't give an eff about the anti Chantry crowd.

[Master Warder Z_]

May I ask for those reasons?

 

For one? The Chantry is the least oppressive of the options for all parties involved, It does not have possession of chemicals that will turn a person into an unthinking laborer. It doesn't torture its mages with heavy steel collars and the sewing of the lips and eyes shut, It doesn't require sacrifices or the spilling of the blood of the innocent.

 

For another? Humanity needs a rallying point, a centralized authority to act as a mediating entity when it comes to crises such the Qunari Invasions, Ultimately the Chantry was the reason why the Qunari stalled and eventually were stopped completely, Their exalted marches accomplished what none of the vaunted magical power of the imperium could.

 

Ultimately having everyone under the Chantry prevents even worse ideologies from taking root.

 

Lesser of the two evils i suppose, for an apt comparison? I suppose you could look at the Catholic church helping the crumbling remnants of the Third Reich flee to establish themselves elsewhere to act as a counter to the growing threat of communism.

 

Its the devil you know i suppose.

[Willowhugger]

They've said the game is about "Faith" as it's defining motif.

 

So I think it's going to be examining it from all angles.

 

People believe in you, even if you're a completely undeserving piece of ****.

 

People believe in Andraste.

People believe in the Elder One.

People believe in the Dalish gods and the myth of Arlathan.

 

I think we'll see it examined from all angles with the idea you're a religious figure whether you like it or not.

[raging_monkey]

They've said the game is about "Faith" as it's defining motif. So I think it's going to be examining it from all angles. People believe in you, even if you're a completely undeserving piece of ****. People believe in Andraste.People believe in the Elder One.People believe in the Dalish gods and the myth of Arlathan. I think we'll see it examined from all angles with the idea you're a religious figure whether you like it or not.

well... no pressure right

[Willowhugger]

 

"It's my estimation that... every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of ******* or another. Ain't about you, it's about what they need."

[raging_monkey]

 "It's my estimation that... every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of ******* or another. Ain't about you, it's about what they need."

mal was lucky to be "married to saffron lol

[Xilizhra]

For another? Humanity needs a rallying point, a centralized authority to act as a mediating entity when it comes to crises such the Qunari Invasions, Ultimately the Chantry was the reason why the Qunari stalled and eventually were stopped completely, Their exalted marches accomplished what none of the vaunted magical power of the imperium could.

Unsurprising when you consider that that was six nations vs. the Imperium's one.

[raging_monkey]

Unsurprising when you consider that that was six nations vs. the Imperium's one.

tevinter had mostlyvslaves and non magi. If the belief of magi being a minority is to believed.