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[Master Warder Z_]

Unsurprising when you consider that that was six nations vs. the Imperium's one.

 

Indeed, the power of the Imperium just ain't what it was.

[Xilizhra]

Indeed, the power of the Imperium just ain't what it was.

"In time, the human empires will crumble."

[Steelcan]

"In time, the human empires will crumble."

Tevinter is certainly taking its sweet time

[TheKomandorShepard]

For one? The Chantry is the least oppressive of the options for all parties involved, It does not have possession of chemicals that will turn a person into an unthinking laborer. It doesn't torture its mages with heavy steel collars and the sewing of the lips and eyes shut, It doesn't require sacrifices or the spilling of the blood of the innocent.

 

For another? Humanity needs a rallying point, a centralized authority to act as a mediating entity when it comes to crises such the Qunari Invasions, Ultimately the Chantry was the reason why the Qunari stalled and eventually were stopped completely, Their exalted marches accomplished what none of the vaunted magical power of the imperium could.

 

Ultimately having everyone under the Chantry prevents even worse ideologies from taking root.

 

Lesser of the two evils i suppose, for an apt comparison? I suppose you could look at the Catholic church helping the crumbling remnants of the Third Reich flee to establish themselves elsewhere to act as a counter to the growing threat of communism.

 

Its the devil you know i suppose.

I rly don't find it comforting they are inefficient and incompetent and yet they use rather brutal methods so they aren't rly "lesser of the two evils" if they were i wouldn't have to deal with vast chaos their incompetence and weakness cause.  

 

And not rly humans would unite with chantry or without it as long we talk about bigger threats like blights and qunari.

 

To be honest i see pretty much qunari far much more better when we talk about unity , prosperity and dealing with corruption than chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

Tevinter is certainly taking its sweet time

 

Seriously.

[Keroko]

It's something people call you because you did a miracle and word spreads faster than you can stamp it down.
It's like being the Dragonborn.

"I'm not the Dragonborn! I don't believe in Akatosh! I'm a Khajit!"

You just are in people's minds.

I was talking about reasons for the Chantry destroying other religions not being a problem.
 
I don't mind at all what other people call my character. That's simply a part of the world around me being the world. As long as my character is able to voice his opinion on being called the herald of Andraste (much like how in Origins a dwarf was able to tell Chantry priests to keep their prayers), I'm fine with it.
 
The world is the world and will react as the world does, but my character is my character and I'd like him to react as I want.
 

I see it like this.
Even if the Chantry did convert the Dalish by the sword, that just means that the Orlesian Chantry IN THAT TIME PERIOD and THAT PLACE were jackasses.
 
Ditto the Rivani purges.
 
Likewise, you can't claim Divine Justinia as an example of what the Church is like because she's one specific person in a much larger group.
So the Chantry has a lot to answer for but it's always important to remember the Chantry can have tendencies and policies but it can't be judged like it's a person.

But its tendencies and policies can be judged. And so far those are... not encouraging if you're a mage or elf or someone with his or her own religion who wants to stay out of it.
 
I really do hope we get to have a bit of a chat with Andraste about the state of the Chantry. I'm curious to find out what the girl who unwillingly started it all thinks of what people did with her legacy.

 

 

For one? The Chantry is the least oppressive of the options for all parties involved, It does not have possession of chemicals that will turn a person into an unthinking laborer. It doesn't torture its mages with heavy steel collars and the sewing of the lips and eyes shut, It doesn't require sacrifices or the spilling of the blood of the innocent.

 

For another? Humanity needs a rallying point, a centralized authority to act as a mediating entity when it comes to crises such the Qunari Invasions, Ultimately the Chantry was the reason why the Qunari stalled and eventually were stopped completely, Their exalted marches accomplished what none of the vaunted magical power of the imperium could.

 

Ultimately having everyone under the Chantry prevents even worse ideologies from taking root.

 

Lesser of the two evils i suppose, for an apt comparison? I suppose you could look at the Catholic church helping the crumbling remnants of the Third Reich flee to establish themselves elsewhere to act as a counter to the growing threat of communism.

 

Its the devil you know i suppose.

 

Hmm, I'd argue that they do have access to methods that will turn a person into an unthinking laborer in the form of the Rite of Tranquility (while only used on mages, it could theoretically be used on anyone with a connection to the Fade) and lyrium addiction (which backfired on them spectacularly when the rogue templars found alternative sources).

 

But I understand the logic behind it, even if Thedas's current political spiral of death being largely the result of the Chantry's oppressive rule does not do your reasoning any favours (for all the brutality of its oppression, the qunari are a lot better at keeping order in their borders).

[Master Warder Z_]

But I understand the logic behind it, even if Thedas's current political spiral of death being largely the result of the Chantry's oppressive rule 

 

No its the result of a handful of stupid mages spitting in the eye of a system that has kept order and stability for a thousand years.

 

Its a result of a few Templars who took a step too far and caused the situation for it, there is blame for both sides of the conflict but i will always believe that it was ultimately the act of mages that caused the final step over the abyss.

 

Lambert offered Fiona a way out, Peace could have endured, strained and harsh as it was there was no need for this war.

 

All to defend a suspected demon puppet she refused and triggered what was to be the first battle of this rebellion.

 

I feel pity for the mages swept along by her taint addled madness, i feel pity for the templars that died by the hands of the agents of the divine as well: Ultimately? I view Lambert was fairly well justified in annulling the accord by that point, but he never would have had to if things hadn't gotten that far.

 

But remember that lesson well: It was a mage who rejected the possibility for peace.

 

Not  a Templar, Not a Seeker, and Not the Chantry.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

 

But remember that lesson well: It was a mage who rejected the possibility for peace.



Not a Templar, Not a Seeker, and Not the Chantry.

A peace build on the back oppressed few is not peace . It is a lie 

 

A stability that favor a majoritee while a minoritee life is not stable is a lie . 

[Xilizhra]

No its the result of a handful of stupid mages spitting in the eye of a system that has kept order and stability for a thousand years.

 

Its a result of a few Templars who took a step too far and caused the situation for it, there is blame for both sides of the conflict but i will always believe that it was ultimately the act of mages that caused the final step over the abyss.

 

Lambert offered Fiona a way out, Peace could have endured, strained and harsh as it was there was no need for this war.

 

All to defend a suspected demon puppet she refused and triggered what was to be the first battle of this rebellion.

 

I feel pity for the mages swept along by her taint addled madness, i feel pity for the templars that died by the hands of the agents of the divine as well: Ultimately? I view Lambert was fairly well justified in annulling the accord by that point, but he never would have had to if things hadn't gotten that far.

 

But remember that lesson well: It was a mage who rejected the possibility for peace.

 

Not  a Templar, Not a Seeker, and Not the Chantry.

Didn't Fiona have the taint cured?

 

Also, peace could have been had at any moment had the Chantry actually been willing to rein the templars in and change some of their more vicious policies.

[Keroko]

No its the result of a handful of stupid mages spitting in the eye of a system that has kept order and stability for a thousand years.

 

Its a result of a few Templars who took a step too far and caused the situation for it, there is blame for both sides of the conflict but i will always believe that it was ultimately the act of mages that caused the final step over the abyss.

 

Lambert offered Fiona a way out, Peace could have endured, strained and harsh as it was there was no need for this war.

 

All to defend a suspected demon puppet she refused and triggered what was to be the first battle of this rebellion.

 

I feel pity for the mages swept along by her taint addled madness, i feel pity for the templars that died by the hands of the agents of the divine as well: Ultimately? I view Lambert was fairly well justified in annulling the accord by that point, but he never would have had to if things hadn't gotten that far.

 

But remember that lesson well: It was a mage who rejected the possibility for peace.

 

Not  a Templar, Not a Seeker, and Not the Chantry.

 

Said system involves imprisoning people in towers for the rest of their lives, only being allowed to leave under armed guard and being forced to undergo lobotomy if they don't behave or don't meet the proper standards. All for the crime of being born.

 

Make no mistake, you can't let mages go live freely without training. Connor "The Butcher of Redcliffe" Guerrin showed us why not. But the Circle system was a major fuckup of the Chantry. A ticking time bomb who's explosion was always a matter of when, not if.

[Master Warder Z_]

Didn't Fiona have the taint cured?

 

So she claims, that **** doesn't go away though.

 

Though i suppose that could be said of Tranquility, but the point remains.

 

 

A peace build on the back oppressed few is not peace . It is a lie 

 

A stability that favor a majoritee while a minoritee life is not stable is a lie . 

 

Your a lie

 

Honestly you claim a system that prevented another Imperium, keeps abominations from slaughtering the common people, keeps mages safe from the common people and groups and governments that would use them for tools as of war and you claim it to be false.

 

Maybe you are a bit too young to realize, but stability is what matters, for the common people to go about their daily lives safe and secure, and not need to fear fireballs blowing them and their families apart by some pissed off mage who sold his soul to a demon.

[Master Warder Z_]

Said system involves imprisoning people in towers for the rest of their lives, only being allowed to leave under armed guard and being forced to undergo lobotomy if they don't behave or don't meet the proper standards. All for the crime of being born.

 

Make no mistake, you can't let mages go freely, as Connor "The Butcher of Redcliffe" Guerrin showed us, but the Circle was a major fuckup of the Chantry. A ticking time bomb who's explosion was always a matter of when, not if.

 

Right, if this had happened maybe four or five times in the last thousand years?

 

I might agree, but it hasn't.

 

It took a few idiots in the right place i will acknowledge that, but the system doesn't account for the individual pieces, it accounts to the whole, it keeps civilization turning.

[Xilizhra]

Your a lie

 

Honestly you claim a system that prevented another Imperium, keeps abominations from slaughtering the common people, keeps mages safe from the common people and groups and governments that would use them for tools as of war and you claim it to be false.

 

Maybe you are a bit too young to realize, but stability is what matters, for the common people to go about their daily lives safe and secure, and not need to fear fireballs blowing them and their families apart by some pissed off mage who sold his soul to a demon.

That's what matters to some of those lucky people who aren't being fed into the meat grinder to ensure stability, maybe, but simply ignoring them is unconscionable, just as much as ignoring Tevinter slavery would be. And it would certainly not be in their best interest to not resist such a system unless you expend even more effort on bloody repression... which is precisely what has been done. Wouldn't it be better for a compromise to exist that was more agreeable to everyone involved and which wouldn't need periodic genocides to keep it in place?

 

 

Right, if this had happened maybe four or five times in the last thousand years?

 

I might agree, but it hasn't.

 

It took a few idiots in the right place i will acknowledge that, but the system doesn't account for the individual pieces, it accounts to the whole, it keeps civilization turning.

No, this is just resistance that was actually successful. The many, many Annulments over the years point to something rather less stable than some would claim.

[Keroko]

Right, if this had happened maybe four or five times in the last thousand years?

 

I might agree, but it hasn't.

 

It took a few idiots in the right place i will acknowledge that, but the system doesn't account for the individual pieces, it accounts to the whole, it keeps civilization turning.

 

No, it only worked for so long because the prison was that good. Until Kirkwall, most mages were convinced they had no chance out of the system, so they tried to make the best of things. But it always was a brutally oppressive prison. Never being allowed to leave the tower unless on special missions under armed guard, templars always watching over your shoulder for any sign of corruption, ready to strike you down without a moment's hesitation and of course the threat that if you don't perform up to the proper standards or -maker forbid- take offence to being treated like a criminal simply for being born you'll get lobotomised without second thought.

 

The Circle was a terrible idea. It only worked because it was a well constructed system and it took a while for the prison to crack, but again: a mage rebellion was always a matter of when, not if.

[Cylan Cooper]

Haven't read much of this topic but uh, thought I'd drop my two cents in on the question posed by the OP. Basically, that title is publicity that sells itself. Thedas is a human dominated society and almost all humans except those on the fringes of society practice the Andrastian religion. Even with your glowing green hand, you probably need tangible political power to end this conflict. Being called Andraste's herald means you probably have a large pool of faithful Andrastians to call on for military support, donations, and supplies. Even if you're a Dalish Elf, a Dwarf, or a Qunari, it'd be silly to throw all of that away by distancing yourself from the title in public when there's already going to be doubts about you based on your race that could potentially cripple the Inquisition.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, this is just resistance that was actually successful. The many, many Annulments over the years point to something rather less stable than some would claim.

 

Your seriously going to harp annulments?

 

Not counting the one in Kirkwall or Rivain only one: The one featured in DAO was ever gone into any detail on.

 

That one had to do with aligning the circle direct to the Monarchy of Fereldan rather the Chantry, It wasn't a violent seizure of power or a coup attempt or at least not at first, it escalated into that.

 

And by the time the Annulment was called for, that circle was all but lost regardless.

 

.-. Beyond that? We don't know, but i suspect they weren't done out of spite.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

 

Your a lie



Honestly you claim a system that prevented another Imperium, keeps abominations from slaughtering the common people, keeps mages safe from the common people and groups and governments that would use them for tools as of war and you claim it to be false.



Maybe you are a bit too young to realize, but stability is want matters, for the common people to go about their daily lives safe and secure, and not need to fear fireballs blowing them and their families apart by some pissed off mage who sold his soul to a demon.

For 1) Don't patornize me . I,m not a kid . If I don't respect you...then give me the same disrespect . But I haven't . 

 

2) that is what I find annoying in most anti-mages claims : But it prevented This and That . 

The day someone base the atrocity or the horrible conduct of chantry/Templar beyond the 'But stability , Qunari , Tevinter' . I maybe willing to listen . 

So far , it just come off as 'We choose to build this prison for mage , not because it was the best solution..but because we are AFRAID' . 

And when peoples make thing out of fear (of being conquered , of losing control of a situation)...they can't claim 'We did it right and everyone right has been respected' . Can't and won't fit at all . 

 

But the chantry use mages as a tool themself . Granted , a guarded and locked up tools that is always on watch and under quaranteen . But they USE THEM Too . So how that make them no sinner ? 

 

Again , that is your opinion . I believe a stability build out of fear is a Lie . 

That kind of stability I can do without . The offence here , is that if you want another option it is always shot down . No matter if you are right or wrong . You are always wrong . 

I think the greatest fear of the Templar , is that without the Mages...they are nothing but gloriefied zealot who daily job is to watch over priestess praying to the maker . And that is boring , and they can't control them at all . Therefor , if the mage ceased to exist...the Templar existance will cease as well . Especially if in this new game , we close the fade for good....what they gonna hunt ? rabbit ? 

[LOLandStuff]

A fancy title that will make people bow down to me and give them the illusion that I might save the world? Yes please.

 

I'd even be Bob the Magnificent Baker if they think I make the best pie just so I can be showered with praises and attention.

[Silfren]

So she claims, that **** doesn't go away though.

 

I don't think that's just a claim of Fiona.  I'm fairly sure in her case the taint was cured.  Supposedly the fact of her being able to have a baby is evidence of this.  Granted, it's shaky, because there's a difference between something being flat out impossible and simply being very, very unlikely, but I think we're meant to take all that to mean that Fiona IS a special case of the taint being cured--especially with her being out of the Wardens and active in mage politics now.

[Keroko]

Your seriously going to harp annulments?

 

Not counting the one in Kirkwall or Rivain only one: The one featured in DAO was ever gone into any detail on.

 

That one had to do with aligning the circle direct to the Monarchy of Fereldan rather the Chantry, It wasn't a violent seizure of power or a coup attempt or at least not at first, it escalated into that.

 

And by the time the Annulment was called for, that circle was all but lost regardless.

 

.-. Beyond that? We don't know, but i suspect they weren't done out of spite.

 

17 prior to Origins according to the Right of Annulment codex entry, making for 19 in total. 20 if your warden performed it as well in Origins.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Circle was a terrible idea. It only worked because it was a well constructed system and it took a while for the prison to crack, but again: a mage rebellion was always a matter of when, not if.

 

Nope, If you are going to deconstruct a system that existed for a thousand years and basically state "when not if" my replies will be of the same length.

 

Countless generations lived and died in circles, only fourteen annulments were ever invoked and for the most part i'd assume the situation was fairly dire. The Circle was useful in blights, exalted marches and against the Qunari, they obtained status, wealth and privilege in increasing doses for those services.

 

You claim the circle couldn't lasted, always a matter of when rather then if, You work off this tired assumption that Kirkwall "showed the mages they could resist" my question to you would be: Why? They are protected, housed and well taken care of, to be honest i almost sort of wanted them to get freedom a while back just so they could see the "lives" they are missing out on.

 

Yeah, go from living like nobility to living in a shack harvesting wheat.

 

Also Tranquility isn't apt comparison to lobotomy.

 

Tranquils don't die from internal hemorrhaging caused by power tools cracking open a skull, they are alive, their minds are fine and they are no longer a threat to themselves or others, in fact they can leave the circle if they wish, they are free to do as they wish.

[Tremere]

Er.  That's not a federal U.S. law.  But again, the original fact stands:  it is NOT universal that trespassers can legally be shot on sight; even if it were a federal U.S. law, there's kind of a problem in assuming that U.S. law = universal law everywhere.  

I like this response and your signature! *nods graciously*

[raging_monkey]

Nope, If you are going to deconstruct a system that existed for a thousand years and basically state "when not if" my replies will be of the same length. Countless generations lived and died in circles, only fourteen annulments were ever invoked and for the most part i'd assume the situation was fairly dire. The Circle was useful in blights, exalted marches and against the Qunari, they obtained status, wealth and privilege in increasing doses for those services. You claim the circle couldn't lasted, always a matter of when rather then if, You work off this tired assumption that Kirkwall "showed the mages they could resist" my question to you would be: Why? They are protected, housed and well taken care of, to be honest i almost sort of wanted them to get freedom a while back just so they could see the "lives" they are missing out on. Yeah, go from living like nobility to living in a shack harvesting wheat. Also Tranquility isn't apt comparison to lobotomy. Tranquils don't die from internal hemorrhaging caused by power tools cracking open a skull, they are alive, their minds are fine and they are no longer a threat to themselves or others, in fact they can leave the circle if they wish, they are free to do as they wish.

its my understanding you can survive a lobotomy(i use survive loosely)

[Willowhugger]

I won't comment on the mage vs. Templar thing but direct people to my blog essay. http://unitedfederat...-age-mages.html

Short version: The Mages had it a lot better than most realized but the Templars probably could have reformed a few of the problems without opening the world to abominations. Anders, however, took that option away.

[Willowhugger]

its my understanding you can survive a lobotomy(i use survive loosely)

 

Yes, lobotomys biggest issue is you tend to have very little initiative or emotional expression thereafter.