589 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

What I find interesting is that many elf players don't see this as an opportunity to bring their people peaceably forward as equals. 

 

Too busy wanting to slaughter others to justify freedom I suppose - pity. 

 

If "Andraste" picked a Dalish elf as her Herald... and that Dalish elf saves all of Thedas - there's really no reason to believe that the common people's view of the elves won't change, and radically.  Sure, it would take time - anyone looking for instant equality is a naive dreamer - but I think the Chantry would be forced to step in line with this new Herald and the "Herald of Andraste" could herald a new age of integration.

 

But - stabbing shemlen sounds like less work I suppose - and it would fill my person view of the Dalish - limited, small minded people who can't think above vengeance.

[Keroko]

Is funny how so many people put 100% of the blame on the Chantry for "screwing" the elves, is not like the elves became a hostile isolationist state who kept out the blight, then raped & pillaged their way to the heart of the Chantry which caused them to call an exalted march to defend themselves from total destruction....

 

That's the Chantry's side of the story. The elves claim that the exalted march began when the Templars invaded after they refused to be converted and kicked the Chantry missionaries out of their sovereign territory.

 

Given the Chantry's fierce monotheistic "everyone who doesn't worship the Maker is a heretic" speeches, and how even the non-Dalish codex entry in question reflects this, I'm inclined to side with the elves on this one.

[Augustei]

"Eww the people of Thedas keep referring to me as some kind of holy prophet" -The Unwise Shortsighted Inquisitor

People don't like the Chantry so much, that they fail to see how being The Herald of Andraste could so greatly be used to your benefit

 

[Keroko]

"Eww the people of Thedas keep referring to me as some kind of holy prophet" -The Unwise Shortsighted Inquisitor

People don't like the Chantry so much, that they fail to see how being The Herald of Andraste could so greatly be used to your benefit

 

Not everyone roleplays a minmaxer though. I can imagine a lot of dwarfs going "wot the damboozle? Whaddaya want from me? Your maker didn't create me, why am I your bloody herald?"

 

And the qunari Inquisitor might not exactly like being bound to the chains of religion either. That's what the tal-vashoth fled from in the first place.

[Xilizhra]

What I find interesting is that many elf players don't see this as an opportunity to bring their people peaceably forward as equals. 

 

Too busy wanting to slaughter others to justify freedom I suppose - pity. 

 

If "Andraste" picked a Dalish elf as her Herald... and that Dalish elf saves all of Thedas - there's really no reason to believe that the common people's view of the elves won't change, and radically.  Sure, it would take time - anyone looking for instant equality is a naive dreamer - but I think the Chantry would be forced to step in line with this new Herald and the "Herald of Andraste" could herald a new age of integration.

 

But - stabbing shemlen sounds like less work I suppose - and it would fill my person view of the Dalish - limited, small minded people who can't think above vengeance.

Well, Garahel was the last Grey Warden hero before the Hero of Ferelden, and that didn't help at all.

 

Me personally, I'm quite willing to use this to our advantage if it can be used. Make it seem like Andraste is on the side of both the elves and the mage rebellion. If we can't kill all the Andrastians, using their moral instincts to our advantage will be by far the best way to go.

[JasonPogo]

Not everyone roleplays a minmaxer though. I can imagine a lot of dwarfs going "wot the damboozle? Whaddaya want from me? Your maker didn't create me, why am I your bloody herald?"

 

And the qunari Inquisitor might not exactly like being bound to the chains of religion either. That's what the tal-vashoth fled from in the first place.

 

Well technically if you play a Qunari you are not tal-vashoth.  Your parents probably were but you yourself are just vashoth,  You have never in your life been a part of or lived under the Qun.

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, Garahel was the last Grey Warden hero before the Hero of Ferelden, and that didn't help at all.

 

*Citation needed.

 

 

Me personally, I'm quite willing to use this to our advantage if it can be used. Make it seem like Andraste is on the side of both the elves and the mage rebellion. If we can't kill all the Andrastians, using their moral instincts to our advantage will be by far the best way to go.

 

 

You know those times you get called out for moral pretension? Posts like this are why.

[Augustei]

Not everyone roleplays a minmaxer though. I can imagine a lot of dwarfs going "wot the damboozle? Whaddaya want from me? Your maker didn't create me, why am I your bloody herald?"

 

And the qunari Inquisitor might not exactly like being bound to the chains of religion either. That's what the tal-vashoth fled from in the first place.

Then they are still unwise and shortsighted Inquisitors, Their purpose is to increase the power of the Inquisiton in order to make it capable to fight the demons and the elder one and stand against its faction enemies (Mages/Templars, Gaspard/Celene etc etc.) and they just flat out refuse to make use of the enormous influence to be had by being thought of as A Holy Prophet. Whether they are Andrastian or like the Chantry is irrelevent.

[Keroko]

Well technically if you play a Qunari you are not tal-vashoth.  Your parents probably were but you yourself are just vashoth,  You have never in your life been a part of or lived under the Qun.

 

True, but your upbringing has likely not endeared you to the idea of being bound to an organization with strict rules. If you are a qunari mage, even less so.

 

At the very least it's a perfectly believable motivation to have qunari inquisitors go "thanks, but no thanks."

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

That's the Chantry's side of the story. The elves claim that the exalted march began when the Templars invaded after they refused to be converted and kicked the Chantry missionaries out of their sovereign territory.
 
Given the Chantry's fierce monotheistic "everyone who doesn't worship the Maker is a heretic" speeches, and how even the non-Dalish codex entry in question reflects this, I'm inclined to side with the elves on this one.

The exalted march was called when Val Royeaux was directly threatened, not just cos the elves said no to worshipping the Maker

[Xilizhra]

*Citation needed.

Well, aside from elven lives not being said to have had any improvements since then, it seems rather telling that the children of the Alienage somehow still don't know that any elven heroes existed.

 

 

You know those times you get called out for moral pretension? Posts like this are why.

I'm only being practical. And facetious; I was never literally planning on killing every Andrastian. But it's topical for me because I just read a book about moral psychology and the way different people's brains are prewired to value different things, and it made it clear that simply appealing to reason and utilitarianism won't work on people of a certain mindset; you have to appeal to authority and loyalty and sanctity and other such garbage to get them on board, and that would seem to a involve a lot of tweaking of preexisting systems to serve a greater good, rather than simply smashing them.

[JasonPogo]

The exalted march was called when Val Royeaux was directly threatened, not just cos the elves said no to worshipping the Maker

 

Who cares how it started?  The end result was elves as a whole being forced into slavery and servitude.  If you are an elf I think you are allowed to be a little pissed off that the chantry took it that far.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Then they are still unwise and shortsighted Inquisitors, Their purpose is to increase the power of the Inquisiton in order to make it capable to fight the demons and the elder one and stand against its faction enemies (Mages/Templars, Gaspard/Celene etc etc.) and they just flat out refuse to make use of the enormous influence to be had by being thought of as A Holy Prophet. Whether they are Andrastian or like the Chantry is irrelevent.

Some people hate the Chantry so much that they'd rather hinder their own power & influence then be associated with the Maker's religion

[Patchwork]

"Eww the people of Thedas keep referring to me as some kind of holy prophet" -The Unwise Shortsighted Inquisitor

People don't like the Chantry so much, that they fail to see how being The Herald of Andraste could so greatly be used to your benefit

 

 

Maybe some of us don't want to play an all wise, all knowing Inquisitor but one who has strengths, weakness and blind spots in their thinking. 

 

 

Given the Chantry's fierce monotheistic "everyone who doesn't worship the Maker is a heretic" speeches, and how even the non-Dalish codex entry in question reflects this, I'm inclined to side with the elves on this one.

 

When the religion requires their chant to be sung from the four corners of the world in order for their god to return I think stomping out all opposing religions is most definitely on their To-Do list.  

[Dusksworn]

Well, there IS one other point to make for why we're Andraste's Herald and not the Herald of someone else.

 

Where does the Fade rift occur? In what location is there a massive magical explosion?

 

The Temple of Andraste's Ashes, which is so full of Lyrium imprinted with the beliefs of Andraste's early followers that it would manifest historical figures relevant to Andrastian beliefs. Not Dalish, Dwarven, or Qunari beliefs.

 

Andrastian beliefs.

 

However it may have occurred, that stuff wasn't lightly imprinted or anything. I would say that the whole mountain itself was devoutly Andrastian. We know from Justice that a Spirit can sense something of an individual from their belongings and remains, and Andraste's remains were physically there in that Lyrium rich location and likely physically there at the center of that explosion.

 

So, what sort of effect do you think all of that would have if its energy was just suddenly released? Energy which has manifested people capable of speech and giving riddles, as well as capable of knowing the secrets and history of people present.

 

Do you think that energy would suddenly decide to be an Elven Creator, or believe itself to be the Stone of the Dwarves? I mean, sure. It probably actually is the Stone in some way, containing the imprints of Ancestors and everything, but that's not how the essence of that Lyrium infused Andrastian mountain is going to present itself.

 

With all of that energy flying about and the easily manipulated Fade being brought closer, that ****** Mountain is going to decide it must be Andraste herself. That's what all of the focus of attention in the mountain was centered on,l and that's what it would likely manifest.

 

Plus, it was a gathering of Chantry leadership that was wiped out in the blast, so that probably only adds to the Andrastian influence that this Fade Tear would have.

 

That's why you're the Herald of Andraste and not someone else. For a Dwarf you could probably claim that she was an Ancestral Spirit in the Stone, but it'll still be something that believes itself to be Andraste. You would just have to be a bit impressed that the Stone accepted a Human into itself.

 

So, that's the note I will leave off on. Whatever the hell was created in that explosion, it's probably been imprinted with whatever amount of Andraste that remained with her ashes as well as the beliefs of all of her followers that came to that mountain.

[Keroko]

Then they are still Unwise and Shortsighted Inquisitors, Their purpose is to increase the power of the Inquisiton in order to make it capable to fight the demons and the elder one and they just flat out refuse to make use of the enormous influence to be had by being thought of as A Holy Prophet. Whether they are Andrastian or like the Chantry is irrelevent

 

Funny thing about short sight, it can stretch further than you think. Your inquisitor sees the title of prophet and see a tool he can use. Mine sees the title of prophet and remembers what happened to the last one.

 

Herald on a stake is not exactly an endearing end goal.

 

 

The exalted march was called when Val Royeaux was directly threatened, not just cos the elves said no to worshipping the Maker

 

Buh? I thought the exalted march was called after there was a "supposed" attack on the "defenceless" town of Red Crossing. Or so the codex says (and that's the the non-Dalish entry). Where did the attack on Val Royeaux come from?

 

 

When the religion requires their chant to be sung from the four corners of the world in order for their god to return I think stomping out all opposing religions is most definitely on their To-Do list.  

 

Oh quite, it does not speak in their favour when the blame-game is played though.
 

[Xilizhra]

Funny thing about short sight, it can stretch further than you think. Your inquisitor sees the title of prophet and see a tool he can use. Mine sees the title of prophet and remembers what happened to the last one.

 

Herald on a stake is not exactly an endearing end goal.

We're not going to Tevinter, we'll be fine.

[Keroko]

We're not going to Tevinter, we'll be fine.

 

Sure, fine, until we start proposing changes to the Chantry. Then the pitchforks will come out.

[Augustei]

Funny thing about short sight, it can stretch further than you think. Your inquisitor sees the title of prophet and see a tool he can use. Mine sees the title of prophet and remembers what happened to the last one.

 

Herald on a stake is not exactly an endearing end goal.

 

So your Inquisitor turns down power and influence because of the risks involved? Perhaps he shouldn't be leading the Inquisition at all be that the case, For he will still make numerous enemies who will want him dead.

Not to mention Andraste was killed by Non-Andrastians... See how well it goes for Andrastians who kill a holy prophet of their own established Thedas wide religion.
 

[Xilizhra]

Sure, fine, until we start proposing changes to the Chantry. Then the pitchforks will come out.

There's a new game plus, that won't kill us.

[Augustei]

Sure, fine, until we start proposing changes to the Chantry. Then the pitchforks will come out.

I'm betting you'd probably try enact changes to the chantry anyway regardless of whether or not you're the Herald of Andraste... Many of the Seekers, Templars and Grand Clerics wont like it when you side with the mages for example.

But even so, the title of Herald of Andraste doesn't make chantry reform from yourself compulsory

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Buh? I thought the exalted march was called after there was a "supposed" attack on the "defenceless" town of Red Crossing. Or so the codex says (and that's the the non-Dalish entry). Where did the attack on Val Royeaux come from?

"2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard & marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for holy war against the elves. This became known as the Exalted March of the Dales"

The Red Crossing incident just caused a war between the Dales & Orlais without Chantry involvement

[Mistic]

Well, aside from elven lives not being said to have had any improvements since then, it seems rather telling that the children of the Alienage somehow still don't know that any elven heroes existed.

 

To be honest, it's not really surprising that children in a Fereldan Alienage don't know about an elven Grey Warden that died four hundred years ago and fought mainly in Antiva, the Anderfels and the Free Marches, the same I don't expect people in Antiva 400 years from now singing the tales of the Hero of Ferelden. Hell, even Grey Wardens in general are a vague reference at best to a lot of Fereldans before the Fifth Blight.The preview of Last Flight shows that at least Ander elves do know of Garahel and admire him.

 

In fact, different interests have been shown in-game for a shorter period of time. Take the Champion of Kirkwall. Famous in the Free Marches and in Ferelden, but not very impressive to Orlesians (at least in MotA). Meanwhile, Tevinters love the Champion's tale because they enjoy stories of Qunari defeat.

 

True, but your upbringing has likely not endeared you to the idea of being bound to an organization with strict rules. If you are a qunari mage, even less so.

 

At the very least it's a perfectly believable motivation to have qunari inquisitors go "thanks, but no thanks."

 

Why? Compared to the Qun, the Chantry is fairly lax. The upbringing could have taught the Vasoth kid how nice Andrastian countries are and how the Chantry protects their freedom from the evils of the Qun. We do know that casteless dwarves who have managed to get to the surface like it there, and Ademaro in the Dwarf Commoner Origin mentions how good it is to be able to legally marry thanks to the Chantry.

[Xilizhra]

Why? Compared to the Qun, the Chantry is fairly lax. The upbringing could have taught the Vasoth kid how nice Andrastian countries are and how the Chantry protects their freedom from the evils of the Qun. We do know that casteless dwarves who have managed to get to the surface like it there, and Ademaro in the Dwarf Commoner Origin mentions how good it is to be able to legally marry thanks to the Chantry.

It should probably be noted that Tevinter does the lion's share of holding back the Qun.

[raging_monkey]

It should probably be noted that Tevinter does the lion's share of holding back the Qun.

pro-templars dont see it that way nor chantry leaders.