589 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, aside from elven lives not being said to have had any improvements since then,

 

*Citation still needed.
 

 

it seems rather telling that the children of the Alienage somehow still don't know that any elven heroes existed.

 

Which has very little to do with the social status, standing institutional policies, and treatment of elves over the hundreds of years before any Dragon Age game to date. The Dragon Age franchise has yet to introduce any character who can credibly claim to be a witness, and has not presented in-universe summation of reforms (or lack of them) over the centuries.

 

You do not have a frame of reference of how the elves were treated a hundred years ago, let alone a thousand years ago. You do not have the basis for any comparison about how the treatment of elves has or has not progressed.
 

 

I'm only being practical. And facetious; I was never literally planning on killing every Andrastian. But it's topical for me because I just read a book about moral psychology and the way different people's brains are prewired to value different things, and it made it clear that simply appealing to reason and utilitarianism won't work on people of a certain mindset; you have to appeal to authority and loyalty and sanctity and other such garbage to get them on board, and that would seem to a involve a lot of tweaking of preexisting systems to serve a greater good, rather than simply smashing them.

 

No, you're not being practical. You're being pretensious and hypocritical.

 

Aside from the irony of you, of all people, dismissing as garbage appeals to authority (which you frequently exploit when you are the potential authority), loyalty (a value you have regularly demanded in regards to NPCs following your preferences), and moral sanctity (your default rational for why you are right in your positions), you just flippantly discussed settling for social engineering because genocide was unavailable.

 

Retroactively claiming to merely be facetious does not cover you in retrospect when (a) it was tonally identical to the rest of the statement, and, far more importantly, (b.) when you have actively argued in favor of both implicit and explicit genocidal solutions in the past, including related to this very topic.

 

You do not get points for advocating working within the reality of the status quo when your frequently confirmed preferences of system smashing is unavailable to you.

[Keroko]

So your Inquisitor turns down power and influence because of the risks involved? Perhaps he shouldn't be leading the Inquisition at all be that the case, For he will still make numerous enemies who will want him dead.

Not to mention Andraste was killed by Non-Andrastians... See how well it goes for Andrastians who kill a holy prophet of their own established Thedas wide religion.
 

 

Religious enemies and political enemies are two vastly different things. The former tends to be capable of absolutely batshit insane stuff, including betraying the principles the herald stood for, as any elf can attest to.

 

Political enemies are much easier.

 

 

There's a new game plus, that won't kill us.

 

Ah, but our Inquisitors don't know about that, do they?

 

 

I'm betting you'd probably try enact changes to the chantry anyway regardless of whether or not you're the Herald of Andraste... Many of the Seekers, Templars and Grand Clerics wont like it when you side with the mages for example.

But even so, the title of Herald of Andraste doesn't make chantry reform from yourself compulsory

 

In which case being the herald ties you to the Chantry and its rules. Not exactly something dwarfs, dalish, qunari or mages could be looking forward to. Heck, the dalish mage is second in line to be a keeper. Being tied to the Chantry means getting send to the Circle, or at the very least being prevented from carrying out your life's goal.

 

 

"2:10 Glory: With elven forces having captured Montsimmard & marching on the doorstep of Val Royeaux, the Chantry calls for holy war against the elves. This became known as the Exalted March of the Dales"

The Red Crossing incident just caused a war between the Dales & Orlais without Chantry involvement

 

Where was this mentioned? I don't recall any codex entries on this, but the Codex entry on the Dales mentions that the holy march started in retaliation to the attack on Red Crossing.

 

 

Why? Compared to the Qun, the Chantry is fairly lax. The upbringing could have taught the Vasoth kid how nice Andrastian countries are and how the Chantry protects their freedom from the evils of the Qun. We do know that casteless dwarves who have managed to get to the surface like it there, and Ademaro in the Dwarf Commoner Origin mentions how good it is to be able to legally marry thanks to the Chantry.

 

It's still an organization that enforces rules on the people regardless of choice, which your parents will have told you many terrible stories about. I'm not saying that all qunari inquisitors must hate the Chantry, but qunari inquisitors have good reason to be hesitant to join it, much less represent it.

 

 

It should probably be noted that Tevinter does the lion's share of holding back the Qun.

 

I believe the Chantry conveniently omits that little detail, so anyone raised by the Chantry would be fully convinced that it's the Chantry to thank for that.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Tevinter does the lion's share of the work holding the Qunari back eh?

 

 

Now THAT's a funny batch of misinformation!

[Augustei]

Religious enemies and political enemies are two vastly different things. The former tends to be capable of absolutely batshit insane stuff, including betraying the principles the herald stood for, as any elf can attest to.

 

Political enemies are much easier.

In which case being the herald ties you to the Chantry and its rules. Not exactly something dwarfs, dalish, qunari or mages could be looking forward to. Heck, the dalish mage is second in line to be a keeper. Being tied to the Chantry means getting send to the Circle, or at the very least being prevented from carrying out your life's goal.

 

You'd still make religious enemies when your Inquisiton (Y'know, the order traditionally bound to the chantry by the Nevarran accord?) Starts strutting about and challenging the status quo.

Care to explain how being the herald ties you to The Chantry and its rules? Because I don't see it at all..

[TTTX]

Tevinter does the lion's share of the work holding the Qunari back eh?

 

 

Now THAT's a funny batch of misinformation!

well they are fighting the Qunari openly, which is more then the rest of Thedas can say.

[Medhia_Nox]

Honestly - given how the dwarves of Orzammar look at power and how to manipulate it... a surface dwarf trying to make true dwarven power on the surface should absolutely leap at this opportunity. 

 

The surface dwarves have no "center" - if the Carta is their "center" it's pitiful.  The Mob as your unifying factor is not nation building.

 

An enterprising dwarf could make their position as Inquisitor and Herald truly a powerful unifying one.  Heck - even if they're not just power hungry.  You unify the surface dwarves - you forge a surface dwarven kingdom - you gain power, you march on a lost Thaig from above.  

 

The possibilities of this Title are endless (and no, I'm not saying what you "could" do will be available in game). 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

well they are fighting the Qunari openly, which is more then the rest of Thedas can say.

 

And failing miserably at it.

 

The Qunari were thrown back by the combined might of Thedas and aren't invading NOW because they don't seem to feel like it.

 

The only reason Tevinter still exists is because it has Fantasy! Constantinople.

[LobselVith8]

For the record, I was trying to apologize for meddling in your character design.  How about this then... for the first part, change "Dalish" to "elven" Warden.  Problem solved.

 

Technically, you were responding to my post where I was simply pointing out that, based on how the elven Warden could respond positively or negatively on Andraste, that the elven Inquisitor may have the same agency in allowing the player to decide how their main character will feel about Andraste, rather than the developers mandating one opinion or the other. I also said it was something of a moot point because Andraste isn't a divine figure to the People, so no Dalish main character would assume it was Andraste who they saw in the Beyond.

 

For the second part... I think you're wrong. The lore doesn't support such a claim.

 

The idea that the elves could have freed themselves but simply chose not to until the humans happened to also be in the middle of a rebellion is ludicrous.  The idea that they actually did free themselves on their own is even more absurd.  I mean, even if you want to claim that history is written by the victors, the scenario you are proposing doesn't make any logical sense.  What were they waiting for if they could have freed themselves without aid?  How is it that their escape attempt just happened to coincide with the exact time that Andraste chose for her rebellion?  I mean, I can understand if you want your character to believe these things for whatever reason, and again, I should not have attempted to interfere in that.  However, this theory is not supported by any facts that I've ever heard and it doesn't stand up to questioning either.

 

I was actually going to make an attempt at ending this debate, but something about that last sentence you wrote didn't sit well with me... if there are any facts that back up your statement as you claim, I'd be happy to hear them so I can adjust my views accordingly.

 

Shartan and the elves with him freed themselves, according to the 'Dark Moon' codex entry on their escape from slavery in the Imperium: "They say that Shartan's followers stole whatever they could find to make weapons. They fought with knives of sharpened stone and glass, and with bows made from broken barrels or firewood. This bow was ox horn, made in secret over the course of months by a slave who worked in the slaughterhouses of Minrathous.

 

"The slave's name has been lost to history, and the verses that spoke of his deeds, stricken from the chant, but the weapon endures."

[Br3admax]

Religious enemies and political enemies are two vastly different things. The former tends to be capable of absolutely batshit insane stuff, including betraying the principles the herald stood for, as any elf can attest to.

 

And what do you know, political enemies can do that too. It's kind of like, in this setting, that they have the same amount of power and principles. 

Political enemies are much easier.

The single most untrue thing I've ever seen. 

 

 

 

 

In which case being the herald ties you to the Chantry and its rules. Not exactly something dwarfs, dalish, qunari or mages could be looking forward to. Heck, the dalish mage is second in line to be a keeper. Being tied to the Chantry means getting send to the Circle, or at the very least being prevented from carrying out your life's goal.

 

Someone who's never met Shale would say. Someone who's never played Dragon Age 2 would say. Someone who's never heard of Fiona would say. Being called something by someone else also won't tie you to anything. 

 

 

 

Where was this mentioned? I don't recall any codex entries on this, but the Codex entry on the Dales mentions that the holy march started in retaliation to the attack on Red Crossing.

 

World of Thedas. The Dalish attacked Orlais in retaliation to the Chantry sending missionaries into the Dales.

 

 

It's still an organization that enforces rules on the people regardless of choice, which your parents will have told you many terrible stories about. I'm not saying that all qunari inquisitors must hate the Chantry, but qunari inquisitors have good reason to be hesitant to join it, much less represent it.

 

 Based on what? Seriously, I'm pretty sure you just made this entire point up from nowhere. Tal-Vashoth and their children have no reason to fear the Chantry or hear terrible stories about than anyone else. Especially if they plan on working for them, as the Inquisitor clearly is. 

 

 

 

I believe the Chantry conveniently omits that little detail, so anyone raised by the Chantry would be fully convinced that it's the Chantry to thank for that.

 

I believe you omitted the little detail where the Qunari had one city left to take in all of Tevinter until the rest of humanity came to save them from certain death. 

[Keroko]

You'd still make religious enemies when your Inquisiton (Y'know, the order traditionally bound to the chantry by the Nevarran accord?) Starts strutting about and challenging the status quo.

Care to explain how being the herald ties you to The Chantry and its rules? Because I don't see it at all..

 

You claim to be the herald of a very important religious figure. That means that the words coming out of your mouth represent said important religious figure. Anything you say that contradicts the Chantry's rules would imply that Andraste herself believes the Chantry should be changed. The only way to not reform the Chantry is by following its rules.

[Lee80]

By the stone, you humans sure do like to argue about religion.  

[LobselVith8]

Where was this mentioned? I don't recall any codex entries on this, but the Codex entry on the Dales mentions that the holy march started in retaliation to the attack on Red Crossing.

 

There are two opposing historical accounts from the Chantry and the Dalish that contradict one another; the Chantry claims the war started because the elves attacked Red Crossing without provocation, while the elves claim the Chantry send armed agents into the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert (and it's also a claim the elven Warden can verbally condemn the Chantry for). The developers have refused to say which historical account is the correct one, and WoT is intentionally ambiguous about who actually started the war.

[TTTX]

And failing miserably at it.

 

The Qunari were thrown back by the combined might of Thedas and aren't invading NOW because they don't seem to feel like it.

 

The only reason Tevinter still exists is because it has Fantasy! Constantinople.

That and Tevinter is pretty tough to take down.

 

 

There are two opposing historical accounts from the Chantry and the Dalish that contradict one another; the Chantry claims the war started because the elves attacked Red Crossing without provocation, while the elves claim the Chantry send armed agents into the Dales because the elves wouldn't convert (and it's also a claim the elven Warden can verbally condemn the Chantry for). The developers have refused to say which historical account is the correct one, and WoT is intentionally ambiguous about who actually started the war.

It's probably a combination of two accounts.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

 

 

 

It's probably a combination of two accounts.

 

The elves attack Red Crossing because they're pissed about missonaries. They follow it up by a full scale invasion of Orlais.

 

The Chantry declares an Exalted March once they reache the capital.

 

The elves are driven back over a period of several years.

 

Their pathetic kingdom is ground into dust with the nobility fleeing to become wandering savages and the Chantry mercifully allowing the rest to live.

 

Considering all the trouble that caused they really should have just pulled a Carthage on the Dales.

[Beerfish]

It's Harold, not Herald, you have been given a 1st name to go along with your last name, thus Harold makes all the sense in the world.  Harold Trevayan, Harold Cadash.  They could have used Lester or Bubba you know.

[KaiserShep]

By the stone, you humans sure do like to argue about religion.  

 

In all probability, we'll continue to do so until we go extinct.

[TTTX]

The elves attack Red Crossing because they're pissed about missonaries. They follow it up by a full scale invasion of Orlais.

 

The Chantry declares an Exalted March once they reache the capital.

 

The elves are driven back over a period of several years.

 

Their pathetic kingdom is ground into dust with the nobility fleeing to become wandering savages and the Chantry mercifully allowing the rest to live.

Missonaries that later came with Templar escorts.

 

It's quite easy to see how the war could have started over a mistake either because the some the elves saw that as an invasion or some templars thought they could cut their way through because the Maker song must be sung all over the world or a combination of the two.

[Reaverwind]

By the stone, you humans sure do like to argue about religion.  

 

Let them argue - so long as there is profit!

[Augustei]

You claim to be the herald of a very important religious figure. That means that the words coming out of your mouth represent said important religious figure. Anything you say that contradicts the Chantry's rules would imply that Andraste herself believes the Chantry should be changed. The only way to not reform the Chantry is by following its rules.

Yet by refounding the Inquisition, and helping the rebel Templars or rebel Mages. You have already made numerous enemies within the chantry.
The only difference is that by being the "Herald of Andraste" legitimacy is bestowed upon your cause making such reforms that you'll already be enacting easier and making it much more difficult for them to stand against you.

 

[Xilizhra]

Yet by refounding the Inquisition, and helping the rebel Templars or rebel Mages. You have already made numerous enemies within the chantry.
The only difference is that by being the "Herald of Andraste" legitimacy is bestowed upon your cause making such reforms that you'll already be enacting easier and making it much more difficult for them to stand against you.

 

True enough. I wonder if I can disagree with that "the Chant must be spread" business as well?

[LobselVith8]

It's probably a combination of two accounts.

 

The brevity of the entries about the fall of the Dales never really get into the nuances of the war. The entry on the fall of the Dales on page 28, for example, reads: "Tensions mounted, and when a small elven raiding party attacked the human village of Red Crossing, the Chantry called an Exalted March to crush the elven people and conquer the Dales in a series of brutal battles."

 

That citation doesn't get into the contradictory historical accounts from the humans and the Dalish, simply that Red Crossing was attacked, and the Chantry responded. If Red Crossing was attacked in retaliation to armed human incursion into the sovereign kingdom of the elves because the inhabitants of the elven kingdom wouldn't convert, then it fits into the Dalish historical account; otherwise, it fits the Chantry version. As it stands, it's intentionally ambiguous about who started the war, as is the timeline.

[Br3admax]

Missonaries that later came with Templar escorts.

 

Your'e right. If they bring people to defend them, we must sack their cities. 

 

 

It's quite easy to see how the war could have started over a mistake either because the some the elves saw that as an invasion or some templars thought they could cut their way through because the Maker song must be sung all over the world or a combination of the two.

Spreading the Chant =/= killing Dalish. Honestly, the elves were just angry that humans came into "their" country. 

[Xilizhra]

Your'e right. If they bring people to defend them, we must sack their cities. 

If you violate border sovereignty with military incursions...

[Keroko]

And what do you know, political enemies can do that too. It's kind of like, in this setting, that they have the same amount of power and principles. 

The single most untrue thing I've ever seen.

\

Political enemies will always act with self-preservation in mind (because what you try to gain is no good to you dead). Religious enemies potentially don't have this limitation, as they could believe death has its own rewards.

Someone who's never met Shale would say. Someone who's never played Dragon Age 2 would say. Someone who's never heard of Fiona would say. Being called something by someone else also won't tie you to anything.

 
If you don't want to reform (which was the point), yes it does. Going against the established rules of the Chantry when you are the herald of Andraste would make you a reformer. Don't want to be a reformer? Better follow the rules.
 

World of Thedas. The Dalish attacked Orlais in retaliation to the Chantry sending missionaries into the Dales.

 
Ah, don't own that one. I'll see if I can find a copy.
 

Based on what? Seriously, I'm pretty sure you just made this entire point up from nowhere. Tal-Vashoth and their children have no reason to fear the Chantry or hear terrible stories about than anyone else. Especially if they plan on working for them, as the Inquisitor clearly is.

When did I say they fear the Chantry? All I'm saying is that a vashoth child would have grown up with the stories of why his or her parents left the Qun, which could, if the player desires it, give their qunari inquisitor a good reason not to want anything to do with the Chantry at all.

I believe you omitted the little detail where the Qunari had one city left to take in all of Tevinter until the rest of humanity came to save them from certain death.

Well, yes (though the rest of the world was not exactly safe either). But they are the only nation that continues to openly resist them.

[LobselVith8]

If you violate border sovereignty with military incursions...

 

I'm not certain how sending armed and armored soldiers into the Dales to force conversion to the Andrastian faith wouldn't be a sign of aggression. Then again, these are people who pretend as though WoT reads that the Chantry version is correct, when WoT is intentionally ambiguous about who actually started the war, as I pointed out a few posts above, so perhaps this is a waste of time.