234 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

I think most city elves are not really meant to be that well trained with weapons. Also a bard would most likely be Orlesian so the accent thing would be a problem (although there is no reason why a dalish elf would sound the same as a freemarcher). 

 

Our characters tend to be the exception rather than the baseline though.

 

Could have an bard that's new to Orlais. I mean it can be worked around.

 

There's not much reason a dalish elf can sound the same as a Qunari/noblehuman/dwarf either but that's what the restricted voices lead to.

[OctagonalSquare]

People dislike the Dalish because they are xenophobic and refuse to let go of the past. Some people want an alternative to that.

This is pretty much how I feel about the Dalish, and it's how I plan to RP my elf Inquisitor.

[aTigerslunch]

Page 3, catching up, yes, City elves don't know how to use weapons, those CE's DA2 were Qun recruits that was using bows. 

 

Felya, they got training, which isn't given to CEs.

 

At the same time, its not hard to say they didn't train with sticks, which peasants have the ability to fight.  They may not be as good as trained fighters though.

[Darvins]

I like how you automatically equated a religious person with being a Christian, as if there weren't other religions in the world.

Ancient history wise, we don't know why Tevinter invaded Arlathan. They may have had a good reason, or they may simply have been conquering. The elves and dwarves coexisted because they had no overlap. One lived on the surface, the other underground. Limited competition for resources.

The Dalish haven't really attempted to settle down anywhere. They wander about, complaining about their lost past and never actually trying to do a thing about it. There are clans that will kill humans who cross their path and have done nothing wrong. They hate city elves. That's why people dislike the Dalish.

The elves of the Dales shirked their treaty obligations in the Second Blight. They isolated themselves from their neighbors. They invaded Orlais and sacked towns and cities along the way. The Exalted March was declared a while after the invasion began. If the Chantry had really wanted to invade the Dales, they could have declared the Exalted March much sooner.

As for letting go of the past, I mean they should stop wallowing in their grief and actually try to do something. For one thing, their hatred of humans only serves to reinforce the human view of the Dalish as savages. If they let go of that, maybe they could make a few friends or advocates amongst humanity, but they don't.

 

Some small points, as far as I am aware the Dalish didn't just up and invade orlais, Orlais decleared war over the Dales expelling chantry missionaries, and started to lose that war. The Exalted march was called in response to that, but pinning the blame on the Dalish being succesfull in a war is a little unfair. We don't know if they did 'shirk' their responsibilities we merely have one side of the tale, an odd part of it is, apparently there was a Dales army in the region that didn't join the battle, the way things had been going, it is entirely possible that the Human general told the elves to get lost, that he didn't want the knife ears help, and got his wish. Such a result would in fact explain why the Dales army was there in the first place only to not join the battle.

 

Orlais is also one of the few nations to use a Blight to make territorial gains.

 

All this is to say, it's a little off to go blaming the Daleish people for all that, and yes in the current climate many Dalish are very anti-human. the opposite is also true many humans will force the Dalish out of their regions if they discover them, attack them on sight and so on. It's a big mess, both sides having legitimate grievances with each other in fact, that is what makes them interesting. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Then again I don't see my characters as avatars of myself but rather a character I've made to inhabit their world. One which I happen to have a degree of agency over. The pros outweighing the cons for me.

I also see the PC as a character I've created, but so far the voice grants me insufficient agency in order to make that work.

I honestly don't see any pros relating to the voiced protagonist. There are only cons.

The PC should have no elements to his personality which I do not create. And given that, there's limited benefit to having pre-written backgrounds. They could just as easily left the Inquisitor’s role at the peace conference undefined, and let us fill in those blanks.

Then we could play a City Elf or a Dalish Elf as we saw fit.

Or they could have included mysterious stranger as a background option (this was apparently considered for DAO), and let us play any race or class with it.

But they've said they don't want to include lesser options, because they worry that we'll choose a background without understanding its implications (which would be less if a risk if they'd document the game better). I really dislike that paternalistic approach to design.

[X Equestris]

Some small points, as far as I am aware the Dalish didn't just up and invade orlais, Orlais decleared war over the Dales expelling chantry missionaries, and started to lose that war. The Exalted march was called in response to that, but pinning the blame on the Dalish being succesfull in a war is a little unfair. We don't know if they did 'shirk' their responsibilities we merely have one side of the tale, an odd part of it is, apparently there was a Dales army in the region that didn't join the battle, the way things had been going, it is entirely possible that the Human general told the elves to get lost, that he didn't want the knife ears help, and got his wish. Such a result would in fact explain why the Dales army was there in the first place only to not join the battle.
 
Orlais is also one of the few nations to use a Blight to make territorial gains.
 
All this is to say, it's a little off to go blaming the Daleish people for all that, and yes in the current climate many Dalish are very anti-human. the opposite is also true many humans will force the Dalish out of their regions if they discover them, attack them on sight and so on. It's a big mess, both sides having legitimate grievances with each other in fact, that is what makes them interesting.

Orlais declared war after the elves attacked the border town of Red Crossing. I agree that what occurred at this time is very hazy. Both accounts of the events are biased. However, the incident during the Second Blight occurred at Montsimmard, where the elven army stood outside the city as it burned. At this time, the relations between humans and elves were much better. I doubt that when you're facing darkspawn you're going to turn away help. Up to this point, Orlais hadn't used a Blight to make territorial gains, because it had just recently become a nation.

[Felya87]

Page 3, catching up, yes, City elves don't know how to use weapons, those CE's DA2 were Qun recruits that was using bows. 

 

Felya, they got training, which isn't given to CEs.

 

At the same time, its not hard to say they didn't train with sticks, which peasants have the ability to fight.  They may not be as good as trained fighters though.

 

those that I have mentioned, one way or another, are all City Elves. CE aren't only the ones in the Alienages. CE are all the elves who lives in town with the Humans, don't follow the Dalish's ways, and usually are Andrastian.

 

Not all the Dalish are trained either. some are hunters, some are storytelles, some take care of the Hallas, some are healer or artisans. not all of them are fighters, just like not all City Elves aren't.

One way or another, even the Dalish Inquisitor is some kind of "special" case. S/he is a First, or a specifically trained warrior/rogue. Is not a common Dalish. Than even a CE Inquisitor would not be a common Elf. A bard apprentice, a spy, a newly recruited city guard or templar, a smuggler or a circle/apostate mage.

 

Thing is, there isn't really nothing at all that would make so "impossibile" a City Elf origin, beside time to work about it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Still worst news of Inquisition. 

[Ryzaki]

those that I have mentioned, one way or another, are all City Elves. CE aren't only the ones in the Alienages. CE are all the elves who lives in town with the Humans, don't follow the Dalish's ways, and usually are Andrastian.

 

Not all the Dalish are trained either. some are hunters, some are storytelles, some take care of the Hallas, some are healer or artisans. not all of them are fighters, just like not all City Elves aren't.

One way or another, even the Dalish Inquisitor is some kind of "special" case. S/he is a First, or a specifically trained warrior/rogue. Is not a common Dalish. Than even a CE Inquisitor would not be a common Elf. A bard apprentice, a spy, a newly recruited city guard or templar, a smuggler or a circle/apostate mage.

 

Thing is, there isn't really nothing at all that would make so "impossibile" a City Elf origin, beside time to work about it.

 

Though I'm pretty sure all dalish know how to hunt? One would think so. I mostly agreed with the last two sentences XD

[NUM13ER]

I honestly don't see any pros relating to the voiced protagonist. There are only cons.

The PC should have no elements to his personality which I do not create. And given that, there's limited benefit to having pre-written backgrounds. They could just as easily left the Inquisitor’s role at the peace conference undefined, and let us fill in those blanks.

Well you might dislike a voice, but surely you can at least see why others might enjoy it more. For instance when Hawke had a conversation with a companion s/he was moving about, interacting more  and s/he was more animated. The voice just enhances that overall feel for me.

Having Hawke do all that without speaking would feel hollow. In Origins the Warden standing there staring blankly and motionless just didn't resonate with me as much. So I gladly accept those sacrifices to my own agency in favour of a character who feels more part of the world. 

Of course I can completely understand when a person would rather "fill in the blanks" as you say, but I don't play videogames to use my imagination. I've plenty of books and daydreams that allow me to do that.

[Darvins]

Orlais declared war after the elves attacked the border town of Red Crossing. I agree that what occurred at this time is very hazy. Both accounts of the events are biased. However, the incident during the Second Blight occurred at Montsimmard, where the elven army stood outside the city as it burned. At this time, the relations between humans and elves were much better. I doubt that when you're facing darkspawn you're going to turn away help. Up to this point, Orlais hadn't used a Blight to make territorial gains, because it had just recently become a nation.

 

The attack on Red crossing is according to the human account, The Dalish say it started when Templars where sent into the Dales. it doesn't make it fact, merely one side of events. As for the Blight again according to some accounts there was an army at Montsimmard again it doesn't make it fact. We have very unreliable narrator problems there, or rather 'History is written by the victors' It's possible, it's also possible more happened than is recorded in the histories. Indeed we have to put the Montsimmard account as being very unreliable simply because frankly we have to wonder where these accounts are coming from? I mean I doubt there are many first hand accounts from the defenders of a city taken by Darkspawn. I don't see them as the type to leave, well anyone alive.

 

The Dales had been pulling away from dealings with humans almost from the start, they didn't want anything to do with the human kingdoms, so while relations may not have been openly hostile, they where not great. Making it very easy for example to blame the loss of a major city on those damned elves who just sit in their lands doing nothing right! As for the Orlais bit, oh they didn't do it in the second blight, merely pointing out that if we are going to blame a people for not fighting during a Blight, we also should be blaming those who use a Blight to expand into other nations! ((got Montsimmiard and Val Royeux mixed up so removed what I had here))

 

Through this is likely getting way off topic, for what started as a 'Lets not paint the Dalish as the only ones at fault' post.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Sketch would not agree. He is a mercenary and an apostate mage.

Athenril was the head of the group of smugglers Hawke have to work with for a year.

Devera is a slaver elf from Tevinter.

Lia became a city guard in act 3.

Katriel was a bard.

 

there are many examples of City Elves being fighters and many natural ways to have a CE a the meeting. (I find much more forced the Dalish than any of the ways a City Elf can be at the meeting. really, be sent to spy humans...because "Keeper premonition?")

Exactly. A City Elf can be logically there for several reasons, and yet the Dalish Elf is just a copy of the Dwarf reason for being there. So of the two, the Dalish Elf is a larger suspension of disbelief than the City Elf. 

[Felya87]

Though I'm pretty sure all dalish know how to hunt? One would think so. I mostly agreed with the last two sentences XD

 

I don't think so. to me seems more like Dalish learn their job when still young, and then keep doing it for all their life. It seems more that is just more common became a hunter than a shepherd of halla or an artisan, but to me seems like the roles are quite restrictive and specialized.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sure a City Elf or a Human Commoner or a Dwarf Noble or whatever could be there. But they aren't. Each race can only have one background and that's the one they picked. There's always a limit to how many options they can add. We weren't initially going to get any other options at all. If we were to get a City Elf Inquisitor instead it would likely also be similar to the Dwarf reason for being there if the character needs to know how to fight already.

[Ryzaki]

I don't think so. to me seems more like Dalish learn their job when still young, and then keep doing it for all their life. It seems more that is just more common became a hunter than a shepherd of halla or an artisanbut to me seems like the roles are quite restrictive and specialized.

 

Oooh that'd make sense.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Each race can only have one background and that's the one they picked.

Incorrect. Humans have two backgrounds. They may be from the same family, but their lives are completely different if they are a mage or not.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

They're not completely different. The impact that difference would have on the rest of the game is not as large as making a totally different type of elf/dwarf/Qunari.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They're not completely different. The impact that difference would have on the game is not as large as making a totally different type of elf/dwarf/Qunari.

How is being a noble or being a Circle mage not completely different? The mage has no access to their title and everything that comes with it. If both existed in the same universe at the same time, the only thing the mage and nonmage Human Inquisitor would share is they are of the same blood. 

 

So if they blow that off as being so minor to the point that it is the same background, then there is definitely no good reason they couldn't have done the same for the other races. 

[Arcling]

City Elf would likely have a little reason to be there. Also, very low possibility to leave Alienage. Other than that, fitting additional backgrounds would've been difficult, it would require to make story and dialogues more vague to fit in. Then again, there isn't much behind this background other than being oppressed, poor or being a servant at some human noble's house. Unless player's character was an exception, but then he/she likely wouldn't be really much of a City Elf anymore (some kind of traveller, mercenary or apostate mage mostly keeping out from the cities).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As head of the Inquisition, a noble mage would still have the background of being a noble and have the same relatives and be from the same city.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As head of the Inquisition, a noble mage would still have the background of being a noble and have the same relatives and be from the same city.

No, you wouldn't. Mages have all their titles stripped from them. You leave for the Circle when you are a young child, so even if you play as a 20 year old Inquisitor you have spent at least half your life completely different than if you weren't a mage.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No, you wouldn't. Mages have all their titles stripped from them. You leave for the Circle when you are a young child, so even if you play as a 20 year old Inquisitor you have spent at least half your life completely different than if you weren't a mage.

 

There's more than one example in history of noble mages getting special treatment. Eamon's kids, for instance. Or Enchanter Illana.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

There's more than one example in history of noble mages getting special treatment. Eamon's kids, for instance.

Doesn't change the fact that your life as a mage is completely different than your life as a noble, and thus is a different background.

[Lumix19]

You could equally argue that the Dalish mage is completely different from the Dalish warrior/rogue. If you're a warrior/rogue you're probably a hunter or something, another member of the clan. Contrast that to the Dalish mage who is the First of the clan, trained to eventually take over as Keeper and all the knowledge and responsibility that brings.

[aTigerslunch]

Dalish are not all trained, I agree. 

 

 

CE's to be at a meeting with mages vs Templars would need to have a reason.   One I can think of as to why a city elf left the Alienage, wasn't to spy for anyone but to spy for themselves.....maybe learned a relative elven mage was there, or similar.  City elf as a servant might be possible as well, not sure if servants would be there, but its possible. Or, they ran away from the Alienage for specific reasons, and joined up with a band of mercenaries as a viable solution.  It can be worked on, yes.