57 réponses à ce sujet

[O_OotherSide]

Weather you liked Hawk being powerless or not, the game was sold on the idea that you influence the story in a big way. So, it makes sense for a lot of backlash when Hawk can't change much at all. I also found it silly that the game ignores you when a mage is in your party throwing fireballs in front of Cullen. Plus having an unexplained magic red rock be a major plot point is asinine to me.

[Elhanan]

The PC did change things in a huge way, but some of these major changes were on rails. One still gets to make the history altering actions, whether or not these events were ones of the Players personal choice.

And the Codex entries help explain the confusion and deception of Mages and spell usage in Kirkwall (see Enigma of Kirkwall especially).

* It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city. But we've discovered the magisters were deliberately thinning it even further. Beneath the city, demons can contact even normal men. Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else? We've found a chamber where the Veil is at its thinnest, long-since looted, but the power is still there. Tonight we will go there. Pray for us. Pray for us all.

—Hidden behind a rock with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three" *


And Red lyrium cannot be explained, as neither Varric as narrator or those affected by the events that followed can say much about it.

[Dutchess]

Whenever people say DA2 still had a good story I can only shake my head in disbelief. The writing - except for the companions - was abysmal. Insanity was the plot device in nearly every friggin' quest. Crazy mages, crazy templars, crazy dwarves, crazy elves, CRAZY EVERYWHERE. Pretty much every (mini) antagonist was made insane so there was no way they could be reasoned with and Hawke simply had to kill them to carry on with the story. Crazy people in primary quests:

- Tarohne

- Bartrand

- Decimus

- Grace

- Meredith

- Orsino

- Arishok (probably handled the best of all and not as bat-**** insane as most of the others, but he does have to throw a fit of I wanna go hoooooome to break him out of his Qun character)

- Quentin

- Crazy elf in Blackpowder Courtesy

- Anders (again, there are reasons and I do not necessarily a problem with this, but in this list it's insanity once again)

 

Honestly, I don't understand why so many keep saying that DA2 was decent or even solid.

[Elhanan]

Whenever people say DA2 still had a good story I can only shake my head in disbelief. The writing - except for the companions - was abysmal. Insanity was the plot device in nearly every friggin' quest. Crazy mages, crazy templars, crazy dwarves, crazy elves, CRAZY EVERYWHERE. Pretty much every (mini) antagonist was made insane so there was no way they could be reasoned with and Hawke simply had to kill them to carry on with the story. Crazy people in primary quests:
- Tarohne
- Bartrand
- Decimus
- Grace
- Meredith
- Orsino
- Arishok (probably handled the best of all and not as bat-**** insane as most of the others, but he does have to throw a fit of I wanna go hoooooome to break him out of his Qun character)
- Quentin
- Crazy elf in Blackpowder Courtesy
- Anders (again, there are reasons and I do not necessarily a problem with this, but in this list it's insanity once again)
 
Honestly, I don't understand why so many keep saying that DA2 was decent or even solid.

Some were crazed due to Red Lyrium and the idol, and others due to the thin Veil and spiritual influence. It is shown that even the Templars were subjected to this. But power hungry is somewhat different, as it is based on self-delusion; not necessarily insanity.

I enjoyed the decade spent in a general location; reminds me a bit of the old Pool of Radiance game setting. And with the exception of the duel, the Arishock is one of the better villains I have seen in a game. I also liked the notion that not everything was laid out easily, but one needed to look into the Codex, Journal, etc for clues, as well as actually listening to the dialogue.

It ain't perfect, as I also dislike the brevity of an explanation and changing appearance we see in Orsino. But overall I enjoy the story and the game.

[Skymaple]

I feel the same as you, OP.

No matter the flaws the game had, I couldn't help to fall in love with Hawke and his story... it made me feel more than DAO (which I love) and by the time the credits appeared the first time, I was crying (also because Florence and the Machine ) I don't know exactly why I created such a strong bond with Hawke (which didn't happen to me with my warden). The story, the storytelling, the characters... ofc, there were flaws as I said: reused elements and not being able to talk to your followers as much as in DAO (that was an important one for me) but for me, Hawke has a charm about him that the warden didn't (and I respect the opinion of everyone, but I'm talking about my Hawke and my Warden)... Maybe because the VO, maybe because the clearer personality, maybe because the more realistic objectives and goals... but it made me feel that my Hawke was more human that my warden (my canon warden is city elf, so... ) The characters... I love Alistair and Leliana, and I'm interested in Morrigan's story arch, but that's it... but... Fenris, Aveline, Varric, Isabela, Merril, Anders... (The first time I romanced Anders... I think I didn't romance him again after that haha but made for an awesome first playthrough). I love DAO because it's a great, amazing game, the best one I had played when I tried it out... I loooove DA2 because it made me feel. As simple as that.

[Black Jimmy]

 

 

In romancing Anders, I was completely taken aback and what he did, and wrestled for a while about what to do. That is powerful story-telling.

 

 

Out of curiosity, what did you decide?

 

I agree with you pretty much, but I can see why others would be disappointed with what they got, and why it didn't turn out better in the first place. I feel the characters save it from being average.

[fhs33721]

Whenever people say DA2 still had a good story I can only shake my head in disbelief. The writing - except for the companions - was abysmal. Insanity was the plot device in nearly every friggin' quest. Crazy mages, crazy templars, crazy dwarves, crazy elves, CRAZY EVERYWHERE. Pretty much every (mini) antagonist was made insane so there was no way they could be reasoned with and Hawke simply had to kill them to carry on with the story. Crazy people in primary quests:

- Tarohne

- Bartrand

- Decimus

- Grace

- Meredith

- Orsino

- Arishok (probably handled the best of all and not as bat-**** insane as most of the others, but he does have to throw a fit of I wanna go hoooooome to break him out of his Qun character)

- Quentin

- Crazy elf in Blackpowder Courtesy

- Anders (again, there are reasons and I do not necessarily a problem with this, but in this list it's insanity once again)

 

Honestly, I don't understand why so many keep saying that DA2 was decent or even solid.

Are we equalilng being a evil d*ck with being insane now?

 

Tarohne has an actually logical plan and build up a pretty good system to kidnap templars. Just because she is an evil jerk that deals with demons doesn't automatically mean that she is insane, just that she has no moral standards.

We don't really learn anything about Decimus mental stability as he attacks you on sight because he (rightly) thinks you work for the templars.

Orsino is hiding an serial killer out of fear, which by no means equals being insane.

Meredith was pretty sane throughout the whole game and only went full crazy at the very end.

The Arishok wasn't insane at all. And also he didn't really break out of his character. He just became fed up with watching what he thought was disgusting behavior from the inhabitants of Kirkwall.

The Crazy elfs motivation wasn't insanity at all but hatred for the qun because her fellow city elves converted to it.

And for Anders, I doubt it is really insanity if the voices in your head actually exist for real.

 

Bartrand, Grace, Quentin, the Corypheus whorshipping carta cell and the magistrates son are the only ones  that I'd consider outright insane.

[Ferretinabun]

Whenever people say DA2 still had a good story I can only shake my head in disbelief. The writing - except for the companions - was abysmal. Insanity was the plot device in nearly every friggin' quest. Crazy mages, crazy templars, crazy dwarves, crazy elves, CRAZY EVERYWHERE. Pretty much every (mini) antagonist was made insane so there was no way they could be reasoned with and Hawke simply had to kill them to carry on with the story. Crazy people in primary quests:

- Tarohne

- Bartrand

- Decimus

- Grace

- Meredith

- Orsino

- Arishok (probably handled the best of all and not as bat-**** insane as most of the others, but he does have to throw a fit of I wanna go hoooooome to break him out of his Qun character)

- Quentin

- Crazy elf in Blackpowder Courtesy

- Anders (again, there are reasons and I do not necessarily a problem with this, but in this list it's insanity once again)

 

Honestly, I don't understand why so many keep saying that DA2 was decent or even solid.

 

I do sympathise. Writing antagonists to be 'eeeeevil because crazy' is lazy writing. It also risks coming off as disrespectful on the topic of mental health after a while. Especially when there were opportunities in the plot to explore mental issues from an interesting and empathetic perspective. Anders, for example, could easily have blown up the chantry in a manic episode. Would that have mitigated the crime? Fenris' introversion and angst bordered on depression. The only story that even tried to approach the topic of mental health in an adult and ethically challenging way was Magistrate's Orders, and even that was a little ham-fisted (though I did appreciate it was there at all).

 

Then again, this is part of the plot-gameplay dichotomy. Essentially the story has to justify Hawke wandering around town slaughtering enough people to fill a stadium. And the more reasonable and human these antagonists look, the more psychopathic Hawke looks.

[Dutchess]

Are we equalilng being a evil d*ck with being insane now?

 

Tarohne has an actually logical plan and build up a pretty good system to kidnap templars. Just because she is an evil jerk that deals with demons doesn't automatically mean that she is insane, just that she has no moral standards.

We don't really learn anything about Decimus mental stability as he attacks you on sight because he (rightly) thinks you work for the templars.

Orsino is hiding an serial killer out of fear, which by no means equals being insane.

Meredith was pretty sane throughout the whole game and only went full crazy at the very end.

The Arishok wasn't insane at all. And also he didn't really break out of his character. He just became fed up with watching what he thought was disgusting behavior from the inhabitants of Kirkwall.

The Crazy elfs motivation wasn't insanity at all but hatred for the qun because her fellow city elves converted to it.

And for Anders, I doubt it is really insanity if the voices in your head actually exist for real.

 

Bartrand, Grace, Quentin, the Corypheus whorshipping carta cell and the magistrates son are the only ones  that I'd consider outright insane.

 

I had such a long post in response to this and then I lost it.  Waah.

 

Rational:

 

 

Yup, nothing wrong with Orsino turning into that and slaughter the ones he wanted to protect, even if Hawke was fighting on their side and it was going pretty well. That's what a normal, sane person would do.

 

Tarohne's plan sound and logical? Because the purpose was...? To slaughter every templar in Kirkwall? Dead templars are nice, I guess, but then the Chantry sends an army of unpossessed templars to deal with it and kill Tarohne and her pets. She was never going to achieve anything with her "plan". Maybe scare the templars and have them crack down even harder on the mages in the Circle? And she only managed to kidnap a bunch of recruits, not "real" templars, so that was unlikely to have been enough to kill all the fully trained templars. Her plan hinged on the "apostitute" enthralling naughty recruits and send them to the evil blood mage lair. The rest of the templars are supposed to be chaste, so what when she runs out of the few horny ones? Still not going to be enough to kill all the rest of them. 

 

Because attacking on sight is a very sane thing to do. Decimus calls Hawke & Co templars, while they obviously do not look like templars (even Grace sees that, and she is crazy too!). Hawke does not attack immediately (which templars likely would have done) and his lover implores him to stay his hand because they are obviously not templars, and he ignores all that, resurrects a bunch of corpses and attacks. But sure, sure, we barely had the chance to get to know him, so he might have been a perfectly reasonable guy.

 

So Meredith went crazy. Thank you. Such a shame too, there was still potential when both she and Orsino seemed like more or less sane people.

 

He became fed-up and therefore decided to raze Kirkwall to the ground, kill as many people as possible, and convert the nobles for fun. That's not sane, because it would have put him and his men in an impossible position. Even if they managed to kill all the guards, templars, etc., they would not get away with it. The Free Marches would be pissed off. The Chantry would be pissed off. The templars would be pissed off. And they would send a pissed off army to kill every horned, muscular guy in Kirkwall. The Arishok did not have enough men to hold Kirkwall against an Exalted March. He is not acting on behalf of the Qun when he does that. And maybe he was a hot-headed hypocrite. That's fine, but the Qun-part of his character is still stomped on when he goes rogue. He was in Kirkwall for one reason: to find the Tome of Koslun and return it to his people. Attacking Kirkwall was not going to bring him any closer to that goal and would probably have made completing it impossible, because they would have had to deal with an army of angry humans then. Isabela would have gotten away with the Tome and he would never have been able to track her. 

 

So she was angry and crazy. Those two go hand-in-hand in this game. So elves are converting to the Qun. That sucks. So, what do about it? What was her plan? To steal the Qunari's gunpowder and blow up an alley in a human district (it wasn't the Alienage). O...kay? And I think she wanted to blame it on the Qunari so everyone would get mad at them? And the elves would all see the error of their ways and come back to dance around the Alienage tree? Terrorists are so very sane. I doubt this would have worked all that well even if they hadn't stolen the wrong stuff.

 

Merging with Justice still destroyed Anders as a person. He became fixated on one single goal: the freedom of mages. Blowing up the Chantry back-fired (the degree depends on who Hawke sides with) against the people he wanted to help. It made both the Chantry and the templars more hostile against mages. That Justice is/was real does not change the fact that Anders could no longer be reasoned with and was unable to continue to function as an ordinary human being.

 

Oh, and I know I forgot some: Huon and Eveline. Once can never have enough crazy blood mages/abominations. Or did Huon have a very good plan when he stabbed his wife as well?

 

Some were crazed due to Red Lyrium and the idol, and others due to the thin Veil and spiritual influence. It is shown that even the Templars were subjected to this. But power hungry is somewhat different, as it is based on self-delusion; not necessarily insanity.

 

They were crazy because reasons. Yes. Barely-existing reasons most of the time. Maybe DAI will explain more about the red lyrium stuff and make it seem like less of a plot device to create more crazy people, but in DA2 alone the reasons are hardly compelling. I'm pretty sure Gaider even admitted that the "Enigma of Kirkwall" was added in the end to have some sort of excuse for all the blood mages and abominations running around town. Hence why it's just a couple of codex entries and the story itself doesn't do anything at all with the information you learn through them. Would have been better if there actually was an ancient evil a la Corypheus slumbering in Kirkwall to justify some of the craziness. So, yeah, they needed lots of crazy people to fight, and then they realized so many crazy people is kinda... crazy and they tried to have some sort of excuse for it.

 

I do sympathise. Writing antagonists to be 'eeeeevil because crazy' is lazy writing. It also risks coming off as disrespectful on the topic of mental health after a while. Especially when there were opportunities in the plot to explore mental issues from an interesting and empathetic perspective. Anders, for example, could easily have blown up the chantry in a manic episode. Would that have mitigated the crime? Fenris' introversion and angst bordered on depression. The only story that even tried to approach the topic of mental health in an adult and ethically challenging way was Magistrate's Orders, and even that was a little ham-fisted (though I did appreciate it was there at all).

 

Then again, this is part of the plot-gameplay dichotomy. Essentially the story has to justify Hawke wandering around town slaughtering enough people to fill a stadium. And the more reasonable and human these antagonists look, the more psychopathic Hawke looks.

 

True. Insanity also doesn't have to be bad in an antagonist either. I already mentioned that the Arishok and Anders were handled reasonably well and I do not necessarily have a problem with them. I also found the premise of Quentin pretty interesting and very sad upon consideration (though not that original; resurrecting a dead spouse has come up in other games). If it's handled well, there is nothing wrong with it. But in DA2 they could not come up with another reason to oppose Hawke except "they must be crazy" and that is so poor it's embarrassing. Maybe have nobles disapproving of a Fereldan suddenly popping up in their fancy circle and take action? More displeased thugs from Hawke's past as a smuggler/mercenary? Having more consequences from Hawke start in the criminal underworld of Kirkwall would have been interesting. With all the other refugees piling up competition should be grueling. Competing criminal factions, etc. 

 

But unfortunately we ended up with Kirkwall the asylum. Hawke is probably just as crazy as the rest. Like thamovie with Leonardo DiCaprio. That was a good movie.

[Elhanan]

Hawke may have been affected by a deeper sense of depression over the loss of friends and relatives, but I do not believe it bordered on insanity. But if you are put off by the explanations given by there seemingly overuse in the game, then the story of Kirkwall would not have made as much sense as a narrative:

"Only a few touched the idol. Why so serious?"

It is the idea that Kirkwall did have several Abominations, lunatics, and severely disturbed individuals that finally led to a War that is being explained to the Seeker; not just the actions of the one called The Champion.

[O_OotherSide]

The PC did change things in a huge way, but some of these major changes were on rails. One still gets to make the history altering actions, whether or not these events were ones of the Players personal choice.

And the Codex entries help explain the confusion and deception of Mages and spell usage in Kirkwall (see Enigma of Kirkwall especially).

* It is well known that the Veil is thin in Kirkwall, small wonder given the suffering in the city. But we've discovered the magisters were deliberately thinning it even further. Beneath the city, demons can contact even normal men. Did they seek the Black City to compound the madness of their previous efforts? Or was it something else? We've found a chamber where the Veil is at its thinnest, long-since looted, but the power is still there. Tonight we will go there. Pray for us. Pray for us all.

—Hidden behind a rock with curious markings and signed, "The Band of Three" *


And Red lyrium cannot be explained, as neither Varric as narrator or those affected by the events that followed can say much about it.

The game was sold on your choices changing things not on being on Bioware's rails. Most games put you on rails, a selling point for Bioware is they supposedly don't.

 

The fact that blood magic can't screw with mages minds in Kirkwall doesn't change the fact that almost every mage is unlikeable. Yes there is a reason for it story wise but it doesn't mean I have to like that Orsino let another mage kill me ma, or that the mages I let escape turn on me anyway. Hell, I reckon most Hawk's would have supported the plan to oust Meridith but Grace just goes off half cocked like a moron and tries to kill you because your choice to let her go doesn't matter. I don't care if she did it because a spell because almost every single damn mage act like this and it gets irritating after awhile.

 

The fact that Red lyrium can't be explained does not change the fact that I dislike a MAJOR plot point to be caused by something unexplained. We know absolutely nothing about it beside the fact that it drives people crazy. It shows up in act 1 is forgotten in the plot except for 2 side quest then suddenly bam ohhh the magic unexplained rock that was created by unknown, for unknown purpose, and left in a fancy dwarf vault for unknown reason drove her insane! Wait did it even drive her insane or did it control her? Did it summon the statues or did Meridith who has no magic abilities suddenly know how because of the magic rock. Is it really just a rock with no thought or is it the like the ring from Lord of the Rings.

 

If the main focus was on trying to find it and explain it, I could probably deal with unknows. As it stands it just comes out of left field for me, 2 side quest with very vague foreshadowing was lame.How can you put such little focus on something so plot changing.How did they even know it was lyrium? If they knew it was Lyrium why did hawk touch it, isn't it toxic to humans?

[Elhanan]

Again, there were choices in DA2, though perhaps not as many or for major occurrences. But one only has to return to older games to remember when choice was not a feature; that almost every tale was on rails. Bioware has and still does exceed the standard for RPG's, IMO.

Not every Mage was unlikeable, at least for me. Besides Hawke, Bethany, and Merrill, there are also minor encounters met along the way that are fine. As one example, Orsino was rather personable until the stand-off; a reason why the sudden departure in character makes little sense.

And if Red Lyrium had been explained, it could not have been as effective as told by Varric; hard to retain an unknown cause when everyone knows about it. My guess as to the toxicity is much the same as the artifact from the Leviathan DLC; time spent with it is required to majorly influence an individual. Also, one of low character or willpower such as Bartrand would have a lesser resistance to ill effects. But this is still speculation, though I believe more could be told of it in DAI.

I enjoyed the game, though still prefer DAO as a more polished title.

[Dutchess]

Hawke may have been affected by a deeper sense of depression over the loss of friends and relatives, but I do not believe it bordered on insanity. But if you are put off by the explanations given by there seemingly overuse in the game, then the story of Kirkwall would not have made as much sense as a narrative:

"Only a few touched the idol. Why so serious?"

It is the idea that Kirkwall did have several Abominations, lunatics, and severely disturbed individuals that finally led to a War that is being explained to the Seeker; not just the actions of the one called The Champion.

 

I don't understand the first part of your post. And all those abominations and lunatics were completely irrelevant for the war that started in the end and the reason Cassandra was interrogating Varric. Huon and Evelina don't matter at all in the "grand scheme of things". Neither does Quentin, Thrask's daughter, Grace, Decimus, they don't matter one bit and were only bumps in the road for Hawke to waltz over. The only lunatic and whose actions mattered for the war was Anders. He started it all. Maybe Meredith helped letting it get out of hand by calling for the Right of Annulment, but that's it. Anders blows up the Chantry. Mages are being blamed. Mages resist and break free of the Circle. Templars mad. Chantry mad. War. There. All the rest of it is irrelevant.

[Elhanan]

Hawke was affected by Kirkwall, as the Champion also could not immediately recognize magic in others (eg; Merrill, Mage harlot, etc). But the result was far from the insanity seen in some others.

Having varied sources of mental illness is somewhat key to the overall story in that some were raging due to 'radiation poisoning', others from spirit influence; even the usual instability aggravated by other stimuli (eg; Paranoia becomes manic). But a detailed explanation of this is not required within the story itself, but more so in OOG materials such as Codex and Journal entries.

[fhs33721]

....

Oh, and I know I forgot some: Huon and Eveline. Once can never have enough crazy blood mages/abominations. Or did Huon have a very good plan when he stabbed his wife as well?

Right I forgot about Huon, sorry, he is completely insane.

But if we go by your loose standards of insanity (apparently to you everyone that uses blood magic and has villainous plans or is an abomination is insane) then DAO doesn't fare any better in the sane villain category.

Let's think back:

 

Uldred= abomination (therefore insane by your standards)

Zathrian= Bloodmage with unreasonable hatred on the werewolves

Branka=Definitely not completely sane

Connor=abomination

Kolgrim=Zealot taht worships a Dragon as the reborn Andraste

Loghain=Serious paranoia against Orlais to a degree where it gets unhealty.

Archdemon=Evil overlord that wants to kills/corrupt everything because.... reasons I guess.

The Baroness=Blood mage turned demon

The mother= Batsh*t crazy.

 

So tell mw who were all those compeltely sane villains in DAO again?

[ShadowLordXII]

Right I forgot about Huon, sorry, he is completely insane.

But if we go by your loose standards of insanity (apparently to you everyone that uses blood magic and has villainous plans or is an abomination is insane) then DAO doesn't fare any better in the sane villain category.

Let's think back:

 

Uldred= abomination (therefore insane by your standards)

Zathrian= Bloodmage with unreasonable hatred on the werewolves

Branka=Definitely not completely sane

Connor=abomination

Kolgrim=Zealot taht worships a Dragon as the reborn Andraste

Loghain=Serious paranoia against Orlais to a degree where it gets unhealty.

Archdemon=Evil overlord that wants to kills/corrupt everything because.... reasons I guess.

The Baroness=Blood mage turned demon

The mother= Batsh*t crazy.

 

So tell mw who were all those compeltely sane villains in DAO again?

 

Uldred=rationally minded by the standards of most abominations

Zathrien=Aforementioned werewolves kidnapped, raped and murdered his children

Branka=Combination of despair and obsession

Connor=Little kid with an idiot mother

Kolgrim=Not debating this one

Loghain=Paranoia is unhealthy, but has a great deal of context

Archdemon=Villains don't always need complicated motivations/goals (in fact, simple is better at times)

Baroness=Drunk with power

The Mother=Not debating this one

 

Here's the difference, the villains/antagonists of Origins certainly had their issues. But they also had character apart from those issues and it was generally given in a non-forced/contrived manner.

 

The crazies in DA2 had their reasons for being crazy, but their actions are so rushed that they seem dumb rather than sympathetic. Apparently this is because of the "Enigma of Kirkwall", but you'd only know about that in codex entries and it's never even mentioned in-game as part of the story. It's all so extreme and in your face that crazy is the only thing that you remember about those characters. It also isn't helped that DA2 overplays the "crazy" card way too much from Act 1 through to the Last Straw.

[Dutchess]

Hawke was affected by Kirkwall, as the Champion also could not immediately recognize magic in others (eg; Merrill, Mage harlot, etc). But the result was far from the insanity seen in some others.

Having varied sources of mental illness is somewhat key to the overall story in that some were raging due to 'radiation poisoning', others from spirit influence; even the usual instability aggravated by other stimuli (eg; Paranoia becomes manic). But a detailed explanation of this is not required within the story itself, but more so in OOG materials such as Codex and Journal entries.

 

Hawke being insane too was more of a jest, though I am playing with the idea that Kirkwall actually broke Hawke and made him terrified of losing anyone else close to him. But that's my fanfic territory.

 

I still disagree that all the mental illness in the game was supposed to be key to the story and some deep and meaningful theme. Again, Enigma of Kirkwall was an afterthought to make up for all the crazy they had ended up with. If it had been key to the story, it would have been addressed in-game as well, in the form of cutscenes and such. The story as it plays out in the game does not hint at any underlying source of all the insanity whatsoever, except for the idol. Codex is for lore and background information, to learn about the world and the characters in it. It's not for "key themes" of the story.

 

Right I forgot about Huon, sorry, he is completely insane.

But if we go by your loose standards of insanity (apparently to you everyone that uses blood magic and has villainous plans or is an abomination is insane) then DAO doesn't fare any better in the sane villain category.

Let's think back:

 

Uldred= abomination (therefore insane by your standards)

Zathrian= Bloodmage with unreasonable hatred on the werewolves

Branka=Definitely not completely sane

Connor=abomination

Kolgrim=Zealot taht worships a Dragon as the reborn Andraste

Loghain=Serious paranoia against Orlais to a degree where it gets unhealty.

Archdemon=Evil overlord that wants to kills/corrupt everything because.... reasons I guess.

The Baroness=Blood mage turned demon

The mother= Batsh*t crazy.

 

So tell mw who were all those compeltely sane villains in DAO again?

 

Uldred was not insane according to your standards? He was completely messed up, I agree. Ideal villain? Probably not, but as I said earlier I do not NECESSARILY have a problem with insanity being used to have another villain in the plot. I think Uldred's background already makes him more interesting than, say, Evelina, in that he thought he could control the pride demon he had made a deal with but actually the demon was in control of him.

 

Except Zathrian can be reasoned with. This puts him miles above everyone on the DA2 list, because you are forced to fight and kill pretty much everyone of them. Under specific circumstances only the Arishok and Bartrand can live. Anders too, but coincidentally both he and the Arishok are a special case and both of them received the most attention of all of the characters that had an antagonistic role to play. Granted, you have to beat the sh** out of Zathrian before he relents, but you can make him change his mind and redeem himself. Now try that with Grace. You can also side with Zathrian, because the werewolves have shown to be dangerous as well. And Zathrian doesn't turn into a flesh-eating monstrosity halfway-through the fight. Orsino could learn from that.

 

Definitely not, no. But you can side with her, and if you do, you can reason with her and again convince her that what she did and wants to do is wrong. Would be nice if you could convince her of that before you have to kill Caridin, but hey, kudos for not being 100% hopeless. Also, her methods might have been nasty, she did have a rational plan. She was very close to finding the Anvil and she knew what she wanted to do with it. She didn't go into the Deep Roads because she wanted a change of pace or something. She wanted to retrieve what could help her people in their hopeless battle.

 

Yes. Fortunately you can save him. That's nice.

 

Crazy in his blind devotion to the dragon, oh yeah. But at least he doesn't force you to fight him after a brief cutscene that shows how crazy he is, which again makes him more sane than most DA2's list. And again you can side with him and he won't turn on you (except if you turn on him, duh). Kolgrim wins from Grace!

 

Agreed, and I'm not that much of a fan of Loghain. There are a lot of people who find him a complex villain who is not necessarily evil, but as someone who has not read the books I've never found many redeeming qualities in his scenes. He seems like a nasty, power-hungry dude to me. But you can force him on your side (and lose Alistair in the process. Boo!) and he plays his part then. Once again, beats most of DA2.

 

Big Bad Evil. Those usually aren't very sane, so... yeah. Alright?

 

Yup. Hm, maybe in Awakening it was already starting to go downhill.

 

I loathe the Mother. She's creeping me out. I can't say I liked her as a villain, but at least there's a reason for why she is insane and it is addressed and explained in the story. 

 

So to sum this all up: I completely agree that DAO had its fair share of characters with questionable mental stability, but at least they were handled better than DA2's infamous army of crazy after crazy after crazy. There was more depth to them and it is obvious they had been given some more thought than "why would he/she want to fight Hawke? Oh, obviously he/she is just insane".

[thruaglassdarkly]

I don't at all understand how DA2 was considered inferior to the first one. I just finished the game for the first time (the end-credits are running on the other screen) and I'm still reeling from the story and all that happened in the adventure.

I so much more liked my Hawke than my Warden because I got to hear him speak. I loved his story much more as he grew from nothing to the champion. Since I sided with the mages, the ending I thought would happen didnt, but I am still very happy. I appreciated the story-telling device and the multi-year arc of my character.

 

The oft-heard complaint about reused sets didn't bother me in most places. As the story takes place in the city, I'd expect to see the same places over and over. It only mildly irritated me when it was a cave or a sewer or some passage. Those were all the same and boring, but the story and all that happened completely banished the irritaion.

 

In romancing Anders, I was completely taken aback and what he did, and wrestled for a while about what to do. That is powerful story-telling.

 

I regret listening to the haters way back in the beginning of this game's life; I stopped because people said it was horrible. It wasnt.

 

I'm very happy that I got to experience the game and the DLCs. They were wonderful.

 

Unfortunately there's no right or wrong answer here.  I played both games over a year after their release, which undoubtedly colored my expectations.

 

I loved both DA:O and DA2.  I'm less high on Awakening, but it has its qualities too.  If others did not enjoy the DA2 experience, I understand the reasoning.  Neither game is flawless, and they are not terribly similar.  I prefer what main character brings in DA2.  I prefer the combat, DLCs, party member quests, inter-character relationships in DA2, and romance mechanism in DA2 (less focused on making everyone happy).  To me, DA2's focus is really on the people you befriend and their competing interests; the larger conflicts between qunari, templars, and mages feel ancillary apart from providing context for interpersonal conflicts (although the Arishok might be my favorite antagonist in either game).  

 

I prefer the character customization in DA:O.  The mis-en-scene is more effectively realized.  The setting design and sequence of enemies in both Ortan Thaig and the Dead Trenches provides some of the best tension building I have ever seen in a game.  I think central story is more effectively realized in DA:O, in part because it is more linear.  DA:O has higher replay value and choices have more direct outcomes in the central story.

 

They are both great games.  I hope the third game takes the best from the previous titles and synthesizes an even more complete experience.  The wrong thing to do is become reactionary and make DA:O with better graphics.  Based on what I have seen and read thus far, I'm confident in the direction the series is moving.

[Beltan]

Out of curiosity, what did you decide?

 

I agree with you pretty much, but I can see why others would be disappointed with what they got, and why it didn't turn out better in the first place. I feel the characters save it from being average.

I chose to save Anders. He was my man after all.  I sided with the mages and kept him from being turned over or being killed by anyone. Great storytelling

[Elhanan]

Hawke being insane too was more of a jest, though I am playing with the idea that Kirkwall actually broke Hawke and made him terrified of losing anyone else close to him. But that's my fanfic territory.
 
I still disagree that all the mental illness in the game was supposed to be key to the story and some deep and meaningful theme. Again, Enigma of Kirkwall was an afterthought to make up for all the crazy they had ended up with. If it had been key to the story, it would have been addressed in-game as well, in the form of cutscenes and such. The story as it plays out in the game does not hint at any underlying source of all the insanity whatsoever, except for the idol. Codex is for lore and background information, to learn about the world and the characters in it. It's not for "key themes" of the story....

The Enigma of Kirkwall is in twelve parts; four in each Act. This is hardly an afterthought. And additional Codex entries helps explain other parts of the tale, also.

[fhs33721]

So to sum this all up: I completely agree that DAO had its fair share of characters with questionable mental stability, but at least they were handled better than DA2's infamous army of crazy after crazy after crazy. There was more depth to them and it is obvious they had been given some more thought than "why would he/she want to fight Hawke? Oh, obviously he/she is just insane".

Fair enough. DAO did handle it  better. That much I can agree on.

[Shady Koala]

The best fight out of all Dragon Age games/dlcs was Meredith's final fight. I just loved how the statues came down and started attacking, I was so amazed and then when I saw Zevran fighting along side I just exploded with feelings.

 

As for the DA2 itself I thoroughly enjoyed it and was not bothered by the reused locations, or lack of impacting choices. I liked the deviation away from the hero who stands up and defeats the big bad and saves the world, to a more of an unfortunate soul who got swept up into Kirkwall's business.

 

Then again I play and love DA for the story.

[KaiserShep]

Tarohne's plan sound and logical? Because the purpose was...? To slaughter every templar in Kirkwall? Dead templars are nice, I guess, but then the Chantry sends an army of unpossessed templars to deal with it and kill Tarohne and her pets. She was never going to achieve anything with her "plan". Maybe scare the templars and have them crack down even harder on the mages in the Circle? And she only managed to kidnap a bunch of recruits, not "real" templars, so that was unlikely to have been enough to kill all the fully trained templars. Her plan hinged on the "apostitute" enthralling naughty recruits and send them to the evil blood mage lair. The rest of the templars are supposed to be chaste, so what when she runs out of the few horny ones? Still not going to be enough to kill all the rest of them.

 

Actually, Tarohne's plan was not to kill all of the Templars, though if she thought she had the capacity, she probably would have tried. Rather, her plan was to undermine the purpose of their existence. If the Templars actually started cracking down harder on the mages of the Circle, that might play right into her plan too. It would likely push those within the Circle who don't care for the system to fight back, and if the public got wind of what was happening among the Templars, people would lose faith in the entire system. After all, what good are they if they are seen as much a danger to everyone else as the mages are?

 

The only reason Tarohne wasn't able to do more damage was because of Hawke's intervention. Cullen tried to investigate, but it was clear that the Templars don't have the power to just detain whoever they want. If people simply don't want to talk, then there's nothing they can really do about it. Idunna would probably have operated without issue for a good while longer and possibly even disappeared before the Chantry's armies descended upon the city. The same goes for Tarohne. The only reason Hawke even encounters her is because Tarohne had a bad case of hubris and recklessness, when she should have gone to ground immediately. If the Templars actually sent a massive force to Kirkwall, that's probably what she would have done.

 

Where I feel it was weakest was how the story clashed far too much with the gameplay mechanics. The openness of team selection and the fact that there is no fail state in cutscenes means that Hawke is automatically able to resist Idunna and survive no matter what so the plot can progress, which should not have been the case. Unless she was a mage herself, or was accompanied by Bethany, Anders or Merrill, that should have been the end of her journey right then and there.

[Icinix]

It's a fair enough comment, because I can't understand why anyone would think it's on par or better than the first one.

 

As a standalone game - I enjoyed it a lot - I actually just started playing it again recently as a refresher for inquisition and it's good fun - but it's no Origins.

 

For all of the reasons above mine that others have mentioned and also just because playing it straight after Origins (and Wasteland 2 and Original Sin) is a really solid jarring reminder of how much I prefer having a non-voiced avatar. Regardless of it's affect on cinematic appeal - playing the game overall for myself is diminished by it drastically.

[Dutchess]

Actually, Tarohne's plan was not to kill all of the Templars, though if she thought she had the capacity, she probably would have tried. Rather, her plan was to undermine the purpose of their existence. If the Templars actually started cracking down harder on the mages of the Circle, that might play right into her plan too. It would likely push those within the Circle who don't care for the system to fight back, and if the public got wind of what was happening among the Templars, people would lose faith in the entire system. After all, what good are they if they are seen as much a danger to everyone else as the mages are?

 

The only reason Tarohne wasn't able to do more damage was because of Hawke's intervention. Cullen tried to investigate, but it was clear that the Templars don't have the power to just detain whoever they want. If people simply don't want to talk, then there's nothing they can really do about it. Idunna would probably have operated without issue for a good while longer and possibly even disappeared before the Chantry's armies descended upon the city. The same goes for Tarohne. The only reason Hawke even encounters her is because Tarohne had a bad case of hubris and recklessness, when she should have gone to ground immediately. If the Templars actually sent a massive force to Kirkwall, that's probably what she would have done.

 

Where I feel it was weakest was how the story clashed far too much with the gameplay mechanics. The openness of team selection and the fact that there is no fail state in cutscenes means that Hawke is automatically able to resist Idunna and survive no matter what so the plot can progress, which should not have been the case. Unless she was a mage herself, or was accompanied by Bethany, Anders or Merrill, that should have been the end of her journey right then and there.

 

The fact that Cullen was investigating suggests to me that their plan was not going to last much longer. Recruits can't keep disappearing and then reappearing without explanation and not raise suspicion. Even if Cullen had been too stupid to report to Meredith about his intent and Wilmod would have manged to kill him, it would have just raised alarm. The disappearance of the Knight-Captain would be more pressing than that of a couple of recruits. Meredith has been reported to be paranoid at the best of times, so you can be certain she would have gotten to the bottom of the it. She probably would deny everyone permission to leave the Gallows to contain the situation.

And again, all Tarohne and Idunna had managed were a bunch of recruits, no real templars. For their "plan" to work they would have to break real templars so they could be possessed. Should templars not have a high chance to resist the manipulation of blood magic? In DAO several ended up under the thrall of blood mages, so I admit I am not sure how high their resistance is, but still, disappearing templars would raise even more suspicion. And for the common people to get wind of the situation and become afraid of the templars they would need incidents with multiple real templars (again, unlikely to possess that many). The templars could still claim the abominations were mages who had killed a templar/recruit and had donned the armor as a disguise. Most people would easily believe that. The mages would know otherwise but most common people would not care what mages have to say, and the templars would hardly mind the mages being more fearful of them. I doubt they would have revolted, because even Meredith's increased "squeezing" over the years did not lead to outright rebellion of the mages in the Circle.