370 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Huh, Thanks.

 

In some ways, it was better than the Normandy pick-up scene in that it was more realistic(well, at least in the sense that Harbinger doesn't go DERP and completely ignores the Normandy instead of shooting it down). At the same time, I don't like not knowing what happened to my squadmates. Did they get vaporized? Did they fall back? WTH?

 

Especially when you hear Coates saying "They're all gone! Everyone fall back!" You assume your squadmates died, yet when you see them emerge in the crash scene it just doesn't make sense. It is forgivable, though. I prefer the original beam run to the EC beam run.

 

Rather than do the derpy pickup scene it might have been a better idea to have two teammates emerge who were not on your assault with you. That might have made more cinematic sense. But then if you had EDI on your assault, they couldn't have Joker and EDI together in Synthesis - and they'd never have their 12 iChildren.

 

Let's face it, the ending was not well thought out.

[themikefest]

All they had to do was have Shepard tell the squadmates to stay behind cover, Shepard runs to the beam and when the area is clear the squadmates call for a shuttle.

[KaiserShep]

Well Shepard is baldy injured, alone on a part of the Citadel no one knows exists, and apparantly so frakked uptheycan't even show the face...

...plus as far as I know no one onShepard's crew is Force Sensitive, and theycan't be all that confident since they made the plaque a anyway.

But hey "lots of speculations for everyone", amirite?
 

 

This would be true if Shepard was still inside the Citadel, but in the end, he/she is on a platform that's out in the open under a mass effect bubble between the Crucible and the Citadel itself. Anyone who just flies by can see plain as day that something's going on there.

[Coyotebay]

There are a couple of things about the Reapers that I don't hear discussed much but are kind of annoying.  First is this assertion by Starbrat about the Reapers preserving all the alien civilizations they destroyed, as if that makes the destruction okay or something.  So what is this preservation, that they store all the information about the civilizations in their data banks?  So what?  No one benefits from it.  The Reapers never share it, they destroy the future civilizations that they could share it with as well.  It just sits inside them when they go back to sleep again for millions of years.  It is only with the defeat of the Reapers and choosing synthesis does this knowledge become available, or perhaps control if Shep AI decides to share.

 

The other thing is the certainty that you just can't defeat the Reapers in a conventional war because they are just too powerful.  I say that is complete rubbish.  The U.S. had superior military power in Vietnam and couldn't win there.  The Soviet Union lost in Afghanistan.  You can beat the Reapers, you just don't take them head-on.  One way is a war of attrition, but would require heavy sacrifices.  You could use the Trojan horse strategy.  Leak where the Crucible is being built, but it's a fake location.  Evacuate people from the planets in that system beforehand.  Lure as many Reapers into the system as you can, engage them for a short time and then run for the exit.  After the last ship gets out ahead of the Reapers, a timed explosive blows the mass relay and destroys the whole system and the Reapers with it.  There's always viral warfare.  The same technique the Reapers use to indoctrinate can be turned against them.  Infect the Reapers, change their programming, turn them on each other.  The writers went out of their way to make it all so hopeless and there was just nothing anyone could do to stop this menace.

[Farangbaa]

Geez, what´d you expect? It's a machine, an AI, it's basically nothing but databanks. Ofcourse it thinks that preserving their DNA (their data) is preserving their life. Add to that it stores them in Reaper form (which are clearly alive), and it's not such a big leap.

 

And did you seriously just equate the Vietnam war to the Reaper war? (besides, try that trick once and they'll just disable the Mass Relays and go their usual methodical way of harvesting, try evacuating planets then)

[Vazgen]

 

 

There are a couple of things about the Reapers that I don't hear discussed much but are kind of annoying.  First is this assertion by Starbrat about the Reapers preserving all the alien civilizations they destroyed, as if that makes the destruction okay or something.  So what is this preservation, that they store all the information about the civilizations in their data banks?  So what?  No one benefits from it.  The Reapers never share it, they destroy the future civilizations that they could share it with as well.  It just sits inside them when they go back to sleep again for millions of years.  It is only with the defeat of the Reapers and choosing synthesis does this knowledge become available, or perhaps control if Shep AI decides to share.

 

The other thing is the certainty that you just can't defeat the Reapers in a conventional war because they are just too powerful.  I say that is complete rubbish.  The U.S. had superior military power in Vietnam and couldn't win there.  The Soviet Union lost in Afghanistan.  You can beat the Reapers, you just don't take them head-on.  One way is a war of attrition, but would require heavy sacrifices.  You could use the Trojan horse strategy.  Leak where the Crucible is being built, but it's a fake location.  Evacuate people from the planets in that system beforehand.  Lure as many Reapers into the system as you can, engage them for a short time and then run for the exit.  After the last ship gets out ahead of the Reapers, a timed explosive blows the mass relay and destroys the whole system and the Reapers with it.  There's always viral warfare.  The same technique the Reapers use to indoctrinate can be turned against them.  Infect the Reapers, change their programming, turn them on each other.  The writers went out of their way to make it all so hopeless and there was just nothing anyone could do to stop this menace.

 

50000 year period is chosen deliberately - in that time civilization grows reliant on Reaper technology but does not understand it enough to turn it against them. Usage of already-ready technology limits understanding of it and no race has ever come close to turn it against the Reapers themselves.

To lure many Reapers into a system the bait needs to be big enough. Assuming they don't just power down the relays, the resistance will lose more and more soldiers while destroying everything in every system used as bait (Arrival DLC events). The Reapers are too powerful and too many, one Sovereign destroys a few dreadnoughts, 10 Sovereigns will destroy 10 times more and there are not enough ships for that. The resistance also has their supply lines cut, facilities for building new ships and weapons destroyed. 

As for why do they preserve the knowledge of the previous races, remember why they were created. To stop the war between organics and synthetics. If that war stops in one cycle they will share that knowledge to those ascended races. Crucible is not of Prothean design and it works in connection with the Citadel...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 

There are a couple of things about the Reapers that I don't hear discussed much but are kind of annoying.  First is this assertion by Starbrat about the Reapers preserving all the alien civilizations they destroyed, as if that makes the destruction okay or something.  So what is this preservation, that they store all the information about the civilizations in their data banks?  So what?  No one benefits from it.  The Reapers never share it, they destroy the future civilizations that they could share it with as well.  It just sits inside them when they go back to sleep again for millions of years.  It is only with the defeat of the Reapers and choosing synthesis does this knowledge become available, or perhaps control if Shep AI decides to share.

 

The other thing is the certainty that you just can't defeat the Reapers in a conventional war because they are just too powerful.  I say that is complete rubbish.  The U.S. had superior military power in Vietnam and couldn't win there.  The Soviet Union lost in Afghanistan.  You can beat the Reapers, you just don't take them head-on.  One way is a war of attrition, but would require heavy sacrifices.  You could use the Trojan horse strategy.  Leak where the Crucible is being built, but it's a fake location.  Evacuate people from the planets in that system beforehand.  Lure as many Reapers into the system as you can, engage them for a short time and then run for the exit.  After the last ship gets out ahead of the Reapers, a timed explosive blows the mass relay and destroys the whole system and the Reapers with it.  There's always viral warfare.  The same technique the Reapers use to indoctrinate can be turned against them.  Infect the Reapers, change their programming, turn them on each other.  The writers went out of their way to make it all so hopeless and there was just nothing anyone could do to stop this menace.

 

 

This is why Synthesis is the sunshine, bunnies, and farting rainbows ending. You simply have to add your essence to the Crucible and send it out into the galaxy. That's you, Space Jesus.

[Coyotebay]

 

 

As for why do they preserve the knowledge of the previous races, remember why they were created. To stop the war between organics and synthetics. If that war stops in one cycle they will share that knowledge to those ascended races. Crucible is not of Prothean design and it works in connection with the Citadel...

 

There is no war betwen organics and synthetics, that is a flawed and false presumption of the Reapers.  The Reapers just wake up and start killing all the spacefaring races.  Their belief is that organics and synthetics will always come to conflict and synthetics will always win, so kill everyone off before that can happen.

[Vazgen]

There is no war betwen organics and synthetics, that is a flawed and false presumption of the Reapers.  The Reapers just wake up and start killing all the spacefaring races.  Their belief is that organics and synthetics will always come to conflict and synthetics will always win, so kill everyone off before that can happen.

Geth and the quarians? Protheans too had a similar problem according to Javik

[ImaginaryMatter]

Geez, what´d you expect? It's a machine, an AI, it's basically nothing but databanks. Ofcourse it thinks that preserving their DNA (their data) is preserving their life. Add to that it stores them in Reaper form (which are clearly alive), and it's not such a big leap.

 

And did you seriously just equate the Vietnam war to the Reaper war? (besides, try that trick once and they'll just disable the Mass Relays and go their usual methodical way of harvesting, try evacuating planets then)

 

I think a closer synthetic analogy for DNA would be the physical hardware it's installed on or maybe the schematics and operating system. Either way I think an AI would be intelligent enough to know that DNA doesn't include things like culture, history, memories, or thoughts; especially when it was built by the Leviathan's who's definition of preservation is different than that of the Catalyst (then again this point may be moot because those guys are terrible programmers).

 

Regardless, I don't think it matters to much. Protecting the actual organic slushy mix doesn't seem to be a high priority of the Catalyst any way because it puts the stuff onto war ships which must get blown up constantly.

[Iakus]

This would be true if Shepard was still inside the Citadel, but in the end, he/she is on a platform that's out in the open under a mass effect bubble between the Crucible and the Citadel itself. Anyone who just flies by can see plain as day that something's going on there.

Why would anyone think to look there for Shepard?  I sure wouldn't. 

 

Besides which: a mass effect field might hold in atmosphere, but not heat.  Shep would freeze or fry in moments, depending on how the Citadel is positioned (or be irradiated, if unlucky enough to survive that)

[Vazgen]

I think a closer synthetic analogy for DNA would be the physical hardware it's installed on or maybe the schematics and operating system. Either way I think an AI would be intelligent enough to know that DNA doesn't include things like culture, history, memories, or thoughts; especially when it was built by the Leviathan's who's definition of preservation is different than that of the Catalyst (then again this point may be moot because those guys are terrible programmers).

 

Regardless, I don't think it matters to much. Protecting the actual organic slushy mix doesn't seem to be a high priority of the Catalyst any way because it puts the stuff onto war ships which must get blown up constantly.

The Thorian creature imprints Prothean knowledge, DNA, culture, history etc. into Shepard (through Shiala). So preserving those things is possible in ME universe

[Iakus]

Geth and the quarians? Protheans too had a similar problem according to Javik

Which turned out to be the Reapers' doing as well (they subjugated the zha'til and turned their offspring into monsters).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There is no war betwen organics and synthetics, that is a flawed and false presumption of the Reapers.  The Reapers just wake up and start killing all the spacefaring races.

 

So there is a war between organics and synthetics.

[SporkFu]

Which turned out to be the Reapers' doing as well (they subjugated the zha'til and turned their offspring into monsters).

Weren't the protheans already fighting the Metacon War before the reapers arrived? 

[Coyotebay]

Geth and the quarians? Protheans too had a similar problem according to Javik

The war between them was over the self-determination of the Geth.  The fact that they happened to be synthetic is beside the point.  The Krogan had a similar problem of self-determination leading them to war with other races.  That is very different than the Reapers notion that war is just inevitable between organics and synthetics because synthetics will become superior.  That is, war simply because "you are organic and I am synthetic".  The Geth had no interest in destroying Quarians or eliminating other organics in the galaxy, they just wanted their freedom.  The fact that you can have a peaceful outcome to their conflict if you do everything right proves this.

[Iakus]

Weren't the protheans already fighting the Metacon War before the reapers arrived? 

 

Turns out they were just Reaper catspaws like the Heretics.

[Iakus]

So there is a war between organics and synthetics.

There is also war between organics and other organics

and even synthetics and other synthetics.

 

You'll also find peace too.

[Basher of Glory]

Although I was among those, who were royally annoyed by the "deus ex machina"-star-brat-thing, I made my peace with it in the meantime.

 

For me it is now nothing but a hologram, a manifestation of the Citadel itself in a form, which is convenient for Shep to communicate with.

 

The parable for me is the result of the star brat's "solutions" and it's appearance. All these arguments about why the harvest is the "only solution" are nothing but a bunch of oxymoronic BS. A child's ideas, a child's thoughts. There is certainly a special logic, but none that would withstand a discussion with a half-ways adult person.

 

So far, so good. My issue with this is simply the fact, that star brat had millions and millions of years time to reconsider, to re-evaluate, to refine. 

An AI which is capable to build the portals, the reapers and whatnot, but has no evolution of social competences... bad job, Leviathans.

[Coyotebay]

Face it, the so-called war between organics and synthetics was instigated by the Reapers themselves in every cycle.  "Look, you're organics and we're destroying you again.  See?  Organics and synthetics just can't get along!"  They were the ultimate hypocrites and going back to Sovereign's dialogue in ME 1 you could see their hatred and contempt for all things organic.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

There is also war between organics and other organics

and even synthetics and other synthetics.

 

You'll also find peace too.

 

And? I did not deny their existence.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Face it, the so-called war between organics and synthetics was instigated by the Reapers themselves in every cycle.  "Look, you're organics and we're destroying you again.  See?  Organics and synthetics just can't get along!"  They were the ultimate hypocrites and going back to Sovereign's dialogue in ME 1 you could see their hatred and contempt for all things organic.

 

The Reapers did not instigate the geth/quarian conflict.

 

Even if they did, your analysis of the problem fails to count the Reapers/Catalyst themselves as synthetics creating conflict with organics. If you want proof that AI can potentially grow too large, too powerful, and out-of-hand, it's standing right there in front of you. That's what people fail to realize about the ending. It's not introducing some new problem; it is a reframing of the overarching Reaper conflict. What you're being asked, essentially, is what do you want to do to protect against a threat like the Reapers in the future. Your options are: inaction (Destroy), regulation (Control), prevention (Sync).

 

*edit* Or denial (Refuse). Almost forgot that one.

[Farangbaa]

There is no war betwen organics and synthetics, that is a flawed and false presumption of the Reapers.  The Reapers just wake up and start killing all the spacefaring races.  Their belief is that organics and synthetics will always come to conflict and synthetics will always win, so kill everyone off before that can happen.

 

Oh yeah.. except that every AI that you know off in the game slaughters at least it creators. All of them, including EDI. The Geth were only off by 1% in their extermination of the Quarians

[Vazgen]

 

Which turned out to be the Reapers' doing as well (they subjugated the zha'til and turned their offspring into monsters).

They try to stop organics from creating synthetics. Imagine this: Leviathan's create an AI to stop their lesser subjects from being destroyed by their own created synthetics. In their arrogance they didn't think that the solution of the AI will include the Leviathans themselves. The solution was to doom the cycle failed and to destroy all civilizations while preserving their essence in Reaper database. New civilizations have everything ready for them, mass relays, citadel etc. They have no need to create synthetics but yet every cycle does the same thing. And every cycle the Reapers return to reset the galactic civilization to the blank state and give a chance to the other non-harvested species to do what the others failed - succeed in not creating intelligent machines to do their bidding. No race succeeds to do so and every cycle the pattern repeats.

The war between them was over the self-determination of the Geth.  The fact that they happened to be synthetic is beside the point.  The Krogan had a similar problem of self-determination leading them to war with other races.  That is very different than the Reapers notion that war is just inevitable between organics and synthetics because synthetics will become superior.  That is, war simply because "you are organic and I am synthetic".  The Geth had no interest in destroying Quarians or eliminating other organics in the galaxy, they just wanted their freedom.  The fact that you can have a peaceful outcome to their conflict if you do everything right proves this.

During ME trilogy cycle, something different happens. The Crucible is built and docked to the Citadel meaning the galaxy was strong enough to face the Reaper threat together and destroy it (with or without the help of synthetics). The solution includes the AI as well. You can now destroy the Reapers who had fulfilled their function - to create a society strong enough to withstand the mightiest synthetic attack, reprogram them (control) to act as safeguards in case of future synthetic incursions or merge synthetics and organics into one, eliminating the whole idea of the conflict. 

 

What many fail to see is that the AI thinks differently, it does not exclude itself from the problem. The Leviathans created the AI but they didn't realize that it made the AI itself a part of the problem and, by extension, the Leviathans. 

[Farangbaa]

Face it, the so-called war between organics and synthetics was instigated by the Reapers themselves in every cycle.  "Look, you're organics and we're destroying you again.  See?  Organics and synthetics just can't get along!"  They were the ultimate hypocrites and going back to Sovereign's dialogue in ME 1 you could see their hatred and contempt for all things organic.

 

This is just nonsense. The Geth butchered the Quarians until 1% of them were left, EDI slaughtered everyone on the moon (except Shepard), the CItadel AI made sure it's creator rotted away in a prison (essentially killing it) and last, but not least... definetly not least, the Catalyst butchered the Leviathan (also off by 1%, not even AI are flawless ). In all of these the Reapers played no role, and the last of them created the Reapers.

 

And most seem to forget that this conflict is not new to this cycle. The ban on AI was in place before the creation of the Geth, not because of the creation of the Geth. Scholars agreed that AI and organics living together would at least be problematic and quite likely impossible.