370 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

I don't think BioWare intended for us to do math and figure out how many Reapers there are, a shitload is enough for the purposes of the story

[Coyotebay]

I don't buy the argument that synthetics would be vastly superior organics because of their superior "brain power".  We use computers today to handle complex data processing, and would still do so in the future.  Today's computers can process things much aster and more accurately than a human brain, but does that make them smarter?  No.  Processing power is not the same as intelligence.  An AI would have this advantage over us as well, but we would cancel that out with the help of our own computers, and there is no evidence that an AI brain could match a human's in other areas that make us unique.  The ability to "think outside the box".  Starbrat was a great example of this, the billion year old "superior AI" that couldn't see the pointlessness of its "solution".

[Iakus]

This is funny because the krogan's goal was merely to allow their population to expand, not to wipe out the entire species of those that opposed them, but let's say they would have done so. That is an undesirable fate for everyone not krogan (most people), and any krogan that value life apart from their own species. It is a problem, and not the good kind. How, as a policymaker assigned to finding some solution, do you solve this problem without mass-murder or biological-alteration (or both, ala genophage)? Assume that the krogan will not be stopped through conventional military means (same assumption made of the Krogan Rebellions without the genophage).

 

 

 

 

by Catalyst logic, the answer would be to detroy any species that achieves interstellar travel to prevent such "conflict" from ever arising.

 

 

Another hypothetical: without the existence of a species more powerful (in any way... physically, militarily, technologically, etc.) than the krogan, there is no one to stop the krogan from wiping out all species. True? Imagine, now, that the krogan develop an AI more powerful than themselves. Who will stop the AI from following in their makers' footsteps? Unless mistakes are made, no one. So the question is, how do you prevent this outcome from taking place without preemptive measures towards the AI, the organic species that created them, or both?

Except in my analogy the krogan are the AI.  They were uplifted by the salarians.  And ended up turning on the Council and nearl wiped them out.

 

And potentially themselves too, as they nuked themselves back to the Stone Age at least once on Tuchanka.

 

 

To reply to your post, though, it's evident that krogan resilience made them the strong and the most effective species in combat. Apply that idea to synthetics, and you concede that they would be even more effective since they have even fewer needs. However, one species was still stronger than the krogan, on an intellectual level. The salarians stopped the krogan with a bioweapon. Now again apply that to synthetics, species which can develop brainpower well beyond organic limits. It's both of these things that make their kind vastly more dangerous than organics, and why conflict with them is more severe than those between organics.

By all accounts, the rachni were not giving anyone any choice but to kill them all. Then again, they were thralls to another, more hostile species.

 

 

Kinda reminds me of a matrix quote (ironic, given ME3's supposed inspiration from it)

 

  I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall; men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air; yet, their strength, and their speed, are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong, or as fast, as *you* can be.

 

Strength, speed, intelligence, don't just come from a vacuum (well, unless Plot demands it) Synthetics still need resources, fuel, their machines still need to be built, their programs need to be stored somewhere.  They are still bound by laws of physics.  Synthetics, even Reapers, are not invincible.  Not unless Plot demands they be.   Heck look at the geth superstructure.  Smashed to pieces by the quarians.  Geth platforms, even with three centuries to evolve, fall to small arms fire.   

[Iakus]

I don't think BioWare intended for us to do math and figure out how many Reapers there are, a shitload is enough for the purposes of the story

 

Believe me, I'm no math expert.  i just realized that a billion years is a stupid long period of time even in 50k increments, and got out a calculator.

 

Science Fiction Writers Have No Sense of Scale

 

Or more likely, I think:

 

"Enough that you need space magic to win, and we control the space magic"

[Vazgen]

Comparison to krogan is irrelevant. The AI was created to deal with synthetic/organic conflict, not organic/organic.

 

As for Reaper numbers, there were enough to combat a joined fleet of the entire galaxy with quite a few still left fighting in different systems

[Iakus]

 

Comparison to krogan is irrelevant. The AI was created to deal with synthetic/organic conflict, not organic/organic.

 

Which demonstrates how limited and flawed the Catalyst's logic is.  And makes it all the more painful that we have to submit to it or Rocks Fall

 

 

As for Reaper numbers, there were enough to combat a joined fleet of the entire galaxy with quite a few still left fighting in different systems

 

If by "quite a few" you mean "tens of thousands" then yes

[Coyotebay]

Believe me, I'm no math expert.  i just realized that a billion years is a stupid long period of time even in 50k increments, and got out a calculator.

 

Science Fiction Writers Have No Sense of Scale

 

Or more likely, I think:

 

"Enough that you need space magic to win, and we control the space magic"

Sure, look at Star Trek.  Just 300 years from now we're zipping around the galaxy, have starbases and settlements all over the place, interact with what looks like hundreds of alien races who all happen to be at the exact same technological level we are, and are leaders of a galactic U.N.  In 300 years I'll be happy if we just have a colony on Mars.

[Vazgen]

The Catalyst is a program which has a task. Being an AI allows it to adjust better to solving that task and explore possibilities impossible for regular programs. The organic conflicts are not a part of that task. So long as there are no synthetics killing organics it's doing its job.

 

I just fail to see why you see the Destroy option as submission. No quarrel with the other two options, but you destroy the Reapers in Destroy. Where do you see submission there? You destroy Reaper technology and everything based on it. 

The way I see it, Destroy is a perfect example of defying submission

[themikefest]

It does come from approximating a cycle every 50,000 years.  Granted a given cycle may be longer, but may be shorter as well.

 

I am also assuming one billion years as a starting point, given that's how old the Leviathan of Dis was.  And we know that's not the oldest Reaper.  So the cycles were actually going on longer than that

 

I'm also assuming five destroyers being masde per cycle.  Which is pretty conservative, I think.

 

But at any rate, that 's why I said "roughly" 200,000 Sovereigns.

I know about the billion years and 50 000 to get 20 000. There's nothing to indicate that every cycle is 50 000 years especially at the beginning. There's also the possibility that some reapers were destroyed without knowing about it. The only ones that are known, are the derelict reaper and the Dis. As far as the destroyers go, that  could be any number from 0 to whatever. 

 

And even with that number, I wouldn't be surprised if there's still a lot of reapers left in dark space

[Iakus]

I know about the billion years and 50 000 to get 20 000. There's nothing to indicate that every cycle is 50 000 years especially at the beginning. There's also the possibility that some reapers were destroyed without knowing about it. The only ones that are known, are the derelict reaper and the Dis. As far as the destroyers go, that  could be any number from 0 to whatever. 

 

And even with that number, I wouldn't be surprised if there's still a lot of reapers left in dark space

Destroyers are made from any race they wipe out that's not worth "preserving" i went with five since there's about a dozen spacefaring races this cycle.  and I'm assuming that's a lot.

 

And as I said, The cycles are older than a billion years the Leviathan wasn't the beginning of the cycles

 

But hey, we can trim that number down.  let's assume the Reapers really suck at their job of "preserving" the races they harvest.

 

100,000 Sovereign-class reapers and only five hundred thousand Destroyers invade the galaxy.  Do we stand a chance now? 

[Iakus]

The Catalyst is a program which has a task. Being an AI allows it to adjust better to solving that task and explore possibilities impossible for regular programs. The organic conflicts are not a part of that task. So long as there are no synthetics killing organics it's doing its job.

 

I just fail to see why you see the Destroy option as submission. No quarrel with the other two options, but you destroy the Reapers in Destroy. Where do you see submission there? You destroy Reaper technology and everything based on it. 

The way I see it, Destroy is a perfect example of defying submission

 

I have my doubts the Catalyst is even a true AI.  EDI can alter her programming in the face of new information.  The Catalyst is so mired in its absolutist belief in "conflict" that I suspect it's more VI than AI. 

 

Destroy is agreeing with the Catalyst that organics and synthetics cannot coexist.  To the point where the Catalyst will not even consider pulling back the Reapers, you must destroy them, and all other synthetic life to "save" organics.  Organic or synthetic, there can be only one.  So do unto them before they do unto you.

 

i don't want to "defy" the Reapers by blowing them up.  I want to defy them by living side by side with EDI and teh geth.  I don't want to crush them physically (well, not just that) I want to crush their ideology.  I want to demonstrate how wrong they are, show them they are a billion year old mistake that should never have existed!

[themikefest]

Destroyers are made from any race they wipe out that's not worth "preserving" i went with five since there's about a dozen spacefaring races this cycle.  and I'm assuming that's a lot.

 

And as I said, The cycles are older than a billion years the Leviathan wasn't the beginning of the cycles

 

But hey, we can trim that number down.  let's assume the Reapers really suck at their job of "preserving" the races they harvest.

 

100,000 Sovereign-class reapers and only five hundred thousand Destroyers invade the galaxy.  Do we stand a chance now? 

So with100 000 Sovereigns class ships have been created for the last 5 billion years and if using your other number, 200 000, that the reapers have been doing this for 10 billion years. If that's the case, then ME3 should be long enough to see Shepard killed while talking with the committee at the beginning.

[Iakus]

So with100 000 Sovereigns class ships have been created for the last 5 billion years and if using your other number, 200 000, that the reapers have been doing this for 10 billion years. If that's the case, then ME3 should be long enough to see Shepard killed while talking with the committee at the beginning.

10 billion years is probably something of a stretch.  But yes, that is, in essence, my point.

 

The sheer number of Reapers that should be around if they have been doing this as long as they have even taking heavy casualties along the way, means the story is pretty much just jerking us around.

[Vazgen]

I have my doubts the Catalyst is even a true AI.  EDI can alter her programming in the face of new information.  The Catalyst is so mired in its absolutist belief in "conflict" that I suspect it's more VI than AI. 

 

Destroy is agreeing with the Catalyst that organics and synthetics cannot coexist.  To the point where the Catalyst will not even consider pulling back the Reapers, you must destroy them, and all other synthetic life to "save" organics.  Organic or synthetic, there can be only one.  So do unto them before they do unto you.

 

i don't want to "defy" the Reapers by blowing them up.  I want to defy them by living side by side with EDI and teh geth.  I don't want to crush them physically (well, not just that) I want to crush their ideology.  I want to demonstrate how wrong they are, show them they are a billion year old mistake that should never have existed!

Living side by side with EDI and geth both extensively reliant on Reaper technology, while destroying the Reapers themselves? 

[JasonShepard]

@iakus, @themikefest:

 

There are at least 100 Sovereigns in the Reaper fleet. That's from the maximum number ever seen in a single shot of a cutscene.

 

The problem with trying to figure out how many there are from the (1 billion years)/(length of cycles) argument is that we don't know the average length of cycles (could have been MUCH longer in the past) and we don't know how many cycles went like the Protheans and didn't produce a Sovvy.

 

But above all else, we don't know the attrition rate. The Reapers almost certainly didn't last thousands of cycles without a single casualty. We can assume their casualty rate is less than one per cycle, but they could lose a Sovereign class Reaper 99 times out of every 100 cycles, and still be growing in numbers (slowly).

 

The best way, I feel, to guess at the number of Reapers is the simple fact that the entire galaxy didn't fall in the space of a day. If there were, say, 100 Sovereigns for every one of our ships, we'd have lost before Shepard had a chance to get off of Earth. Forget attacking a single planet at a time, just hit everywhere at once if your fleet is that big.

 

Instead, we were capable of fighting a (losing) battle for what feels like a few months. That puts their fleet at something bigger than, but still of a similar size to, our own. Which actually fits the 'roughly 100' number quite well. So I'd put the numbers in the 100 to 300 range, unless they left a huge fleet back in dark space for no apparent reason.

[Vazgen]

Have you thought about what happens to all the husks, cannibals and other ground troops once the harvest is complete? They disappear without a trace. I think they are made into Reapers too, to replenish possible casualties

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The reapers are bullsh*t. They create one capital reaper each cycle (codex). If they lose one capital reaper per cycle they're treading water. If they lose two they're losing ground. The cycle is not sustainable. Oh, crap! I hit another plot hole and broke a trans-axle.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Have you thought about what happens to all the husks, cannibals and other ground troops once the harvest is complete? They disappear without a trace. I think they are made into Reapers too, to replenish possible casualties

 

No. They're considered "indoctrinated" and the Reapers just leave them behind to starve.

[Farangbaa]

What's in the Codex about Reaper production is pure speculation, it even says so in the entry.

[Barquiel]

The reapers are bullsh*t. They create one capital reaper each cycle (codex). If they lose one capital reaper per cycle they're treading water. If they lose two they're losing ground. The cycle is not sustainable. Oh, crap! I hit another plot hole and broke a trans-axle.

 

According to Patrick Weekes the reapers don't normally take any capital-size Reaper losses at all. Our cycle is special (well, at least the turians and the asari)

[themikefest]

The reapers are bullsh*t. They create one capital reaper each cycle (codex). If they lose one capital reaper per cycle they're treading water. If they lose two they're losing ground. The cycle is not sustainable. Oh, crap! I hit another plot hole and broke a trans-axle.

Yep. According to the Battle Of Palaven, several Sovereign class ships were destroyed in this cycle alone

Spoiler

The Battle of Palaven Edit

When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed in force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest.

Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, the turian dreadnoughts locked targets first, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.

The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes on turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.

The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husks to capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated.

[themikefest]

According to Patrick Weekes the reapers don't normally take any capital-size Reaper losses at all. Our cycle is special (well, at least the turians and the asari)

That means they still can have losses

[Vazgen]

Where does the information about them being left behind come from? Seems like an awful waste of resources. Just melt them down and make shells for the new ships or something

[JasonShepard]

The reapers are bullsh*t. They create one capital reaper each cycle (codex). If they lose one capital reaper per cycle they're treading water. If they lose two they're losing ground. The cycle is not sustainable. Oh, crap! I hit another plot hole and broke a trans-axle.

 

That's... Not a plot hole. We can just assume that they have a death rate of less than one every cycle. Maybe one every two cycles? (Also, as Psychevore says, the Codex is in-universe speculation.)

 

I mean most of the time, they can fly in through the Citadel, lock down the mass relays and harvest the galaxy system by system, committing their entire fleet to individual planets. That's quite the force-multiplier and I can see it being a low-casualty method. Less than one death per cycle doesn't feel too unrealistic to me.

[Farangbaa]

Where does the information about them being left behind come from? Seems like an awful waste of resources. Just melt them down and make shells for the new ships or something

 

Vigil, I think.