Aller au contenu

Photo

Dragon Age : Last Flight


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
673 réponses à ce sujet

#326
Willowhugger

Willowhugger
  • Members
  • 3 489 messages

All Avernus seem concerned about is tapping into power and making the Wardens stronger.

 

You're right though, he did conduct research at least. I just think that needs to happen more often - as a way to end Blights. Not just for acquiring power. The only person who's tried to make a step (albeit, disastrously) is the Architect.

 

To be fair, Janeka had the same idea of enslaving Corphyeus as a kind of Darkspawn Blaster.

 

That was a stupid idea, though.

 

But the Grey Wardens do seem to always be researching new ways of killing them and how.



#327
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

To be fair, Janius had the same idea of enslaving Corphyeus as a kind of Darkspawn Blaster.

 

That was a stupid idea, though.

 

But the Grey Wardens do seem to always be researching new ways of killing them and how.

*cough* Janeka *cough*



#328
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

lol... Janius is funnier.



#329
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

lol... Janius is funnier.

Willow literally combined Janeka and Larius lol



#330
Warden Commander Aeducan

Warden Commander Aeducan
  • Members
  • 2 278 messages

Willow literally combined Janeka and Larius lol

So...a crazy women combined with ugly people...I mean mangy blighted little mongoose.



#331
Aimi

Aimi
  • Members
  • 4 616 messages

Europe degenerated enormously after the fall of the Roman Empire and took something like 8 centuries to *recover* much less start significant development again.  Granted, some innovations like stirrups and the horse collar and gunpowder did happen--but many of them came from other places.  Stirrups came from Mongol invaders.  Gunpowder came from China.

Thedas does not have an "empire" to promote what Isabel Paterson called the "Long Circuit of Energy" (highly recommend her book The God of the Machine)--long distance trade that fosters innovation and development.  In fact, it has a lot more material hazards to trading.  Maybe not so much plague, but certainly plenty of other disasters.  The Tevinter Imperium, with its emphasis on slavery, is in fact a massive anti-innovation, anti-development force.  I don't really think Orlais is a good source for a pro-innovation force, either.  The nobles have too many prerogatives that are geared toward a lower level of development and that would crumble if the peasantry started getting all innovative and trade-y.  Fereldan would be a better bet but their population is too small and their economy has just suffered a major disaster.

 
This is something of a tired trope that only has legs because it is at least half true.

Archaeologists refer to the period immediately after the end of the Roman Empire as the "Great Simplification" for most of Western Europe, especially Britain, and chiefly for the reasons you seem to highlight: trade links collapsed, shattering regional economies and fracturing the monetary economy, while large complex governments with lots of money to throw around ceased to throw that money around.

But by the same token, "technological development" being "lost" is kinda...ehhhh. It doesn't really work as either explanation or effect.

For one thing, one could reasonably point out that the Roman Empire's technology in 400 wasn't hugely different from its technology four centuries earlier. If vast powerful states and massive quantities of trade were what stimulated technological development, then shouldn't Rome have gotten, I dunno, "more" technology?

It's these sort of schematic approaches to technological development that bother me, as a historian, because for every positive example that can be found for Reason A stimulating the creation of new technologies, there are multiple negative examples of Reason A failing to do anything of the sort. And for examples of Reason B stifling technological development, there are examples of Reason B existing in societies that stimulate it as well.

Case in point: your association of slavery with a lack of technological development. That might explain imperial Rome's apparent lack of significant innovation, but how does it explain the flowering of philosophy, art, architecture, mechanical science, and suchlike things during the Hellenistic era? All of the Greek states and Hellenistic monarchies kept vast quantities of slaves. Or take the assertions by many historians of the Industrial Revolution that slave labor-supplied raw material inputs are directly correlated with increases in productivity in Great Britain in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Slavery didn't stifle innovation in those societies; in fact, it may have helped to enable it.

For another thing, I strongly disagree with the characterization of post-Roman Europe as being a technological black hole. This is not merely a case of agricultural, navigational, and metalworking development - although all of those things happened in the centuries immediately following western Rome's political end - but of philosophy, literature, and historical thought. Scholars like Gregory of Tours, Gregory the Great, or Boethius were just as learned and literate as their late-Roman counterparts like C. Sollius Sidonius Apollinaris, Q. Aurelius Symmachus, and Ammianus Marcellinus. Early medieval Ireland - admittedly, not technically a "post-Roman" society - may have been the most literate society in the world of its time. Documentary evidence certainly doesn't disappear (except for Britain, and even then only for two centuries). Tell any medievalist that she's studying a period full of illiterate, backwards idiots, and she will cackle maniacally as she buries you under several tons of chartulary papers. And she will also point out that apart from places like Egypt, written records have a hard time surviving the millennia anyway, due to climate conditions as much as anything else. The quality of historical writing was fine, too, especially when you consider that classical historians weren't that good (and were kind of obsessed with referential nonsense the only point of which was to show how well-read they were); arguably, the explosion of hagiographical works in medieval Europe - which had no equivalent in classical society - indicated a better standard than had existed previously.

It's really hard to quantify just how much daily life changed for any given individual in western Europe. The poorest farmers were hardly any worse off; by the seventh and eighth centuries, the richest Frankish and Gothic magnates equaled their Roman predecessors in wealth. Long-distance trade didn't do incredibly well, but long-distance trade is almost totally negligible for all of human history up to the nineteenth century or so compared to regional trade, so that doesn't tell us much. Henri Pirenne's study of trade collapse in the Mediterranean is now widely discredited due to his focus on luxury items that virtually nobody would be able to acquire anyway, and irrelevant due to its total lack of archaeological data. The archaeology itself is equivocal, indicating regions of increased trade, manufacturing, and prosperity (e.g. the northern Gallic-Ardennes-Rhineland region, the core of the Merovingian monarchy) and areas where things weren't so rosy (e.g. southern Britain, inland Spain).

Tax structures did not entirely disappear; all post-Roman kingdoms for which we have data (i.e. "not Britain") seem to have taxed into the seventh century. But they slowed down and eventually stopped, not because they "forgot how" to tax, but because armies had become landed instead of directly paid, eliminating the single largest budget item in the old Roman fisc. Without paid troops, tax was less and less relevant. And this was a change that to a significant extent had already started under Rome, with the provision of the annona and the establishment of large, mostly stationary regional armies based on specific territories. Post-Roman rulers simply cut out more of the middlemen. Is that indicative of technological decline?

You claim that some technological innovations didn't come from within Europe, but from outside it. I...am not sure that that matters. It's equivalent to a claim that modern France is a technologically backward society because the French didn't come up with the iPhone. And that's without getting into whether the stirrup and gunpowder were particularly "important" technologies - very debatable, especially in the case of the stirrup - and whether the lag time between their development outside Europe and their development inside Europe actually meant anything.

The point is that the picture of the Roman Empire, technology, and the so-called "Dark Ages" is a great deal more equivocal than you're getting across.

Thirdly, the "800 years" thing is just silly. Leave aside the matters of the Carolingian "renaissance", the creation of settled, economically complex societies across Central and Eastern Europe that didn't even exist when Rome was around, the existence of the Byzantine and Umayyad empires, and suchlike things. I'm not even sure what you're ostensibly measuring. If it's this ahistorical farce, then, well...no. Just no.

And finally, more minor quibbles. Stirrups are first attested in European records by the Byzantine military text Strategikon, popularly attributed to the Emperor Maurikios, who described them as being used by the Avars, not the Mongols. That's a good six centuries off. Plague is usually described as a consequence of trade (or rather, "large-scale movements of peoples over long distances"), not an inhibitor of it. And "noble prerogatives" inhibiting peasant-based technological innovation are a total red herring; I'm not sure what peasants have to do with technological change, nor am I sure why aristocrats aren't associated with it. It's not like people lose 50 IQ points when they get titles.

---

Fundamentally, though, comparing Thedosian technological change to historical technological change is pointless. The setting has seen relatively little technological change not because of historical processes, but because of the demands of the story. Fantasy settings usually have an ahistorical approach to technology because frankly it's easier that way. If things don't change much, the timeline is clay: it can be manipulated at will without regard to factors like new technology. The setting can still be described in the same way, rendering it easily recognizable to readers and allowing writers to emphasize other differences without technology in the way.

There are an awful lot of fantasy settings that inhabit a weird realm that draw bits and pieces of mishmashed, mutated, and poorly understood versions of "Middle Ages" history. (Arda and Westeros are both excellent and well-known examples.) Trying to use historical processes to understand them is missing the point.
  • PhroXenGold, Tyrannosaurus Rex, The Baconer et 8 autres aiment ceci

#332
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

Impressive discussion. I'm out of my element. I've only read the Wealth and Poverty of Nations.



#333
Mr.House

Mr.House
  • Members
  • 23 338 messages

Holy crap that wall O Text.


  • HiroVoid et PlasmaCheese aiment ceci

#334
Guest_StreetMagic_*

Guest_StreetMagic_*
  • Guests

Holy crap that wall O Text.

 

To be fair, it's a wall o text worth reading. ;) A rare thing.


  • Ihatebadgames aime ceci

#335
X Equestris

X Equestris
  • Members
  • 2 521 messages

This is something of a tired trope that only has legs because it is at least half true.Archaeologists refer to the period immediately after the end of the Roman Empire as the "Great Simplification" for most of Western Europe, especially Britain, and chiefly for the reasons you seem to highlight: trade links collapsed, shattering regional economies and fracturing the monetary economy, while large complex governments with lots of money to throw around ceased to throw that money around.But by the same token, "technological development" being "lost" is kinda...ehhhh. It doesn't really work as either explanation or effect.For one thing, one could reasonably point out that the Roman Empire's technology in 400 wasn't hugely different from its technology four centuries earlier. If vast powerful states and massive quantities of trade were what stimulated technological development, then shouldn't Rome have gotten, I dunno, "more" technology?It's these sort of schematic approaches to technological development that bother me, as a historian, because for every positive example that can be found for Reason A stimulating the creation of new technologies, there are multiple negative examples of Reason A failing to do anything of the sort. And for examples of Reason B stifling technological development, there are examples of Reason B existing in societies that stimulate it as well.Case in point: your association of slavery with a lack of technological development. That might explain imperial Rome's apparent lack of significant innovation, but how does it explain the flowering of philosophy, art, architecture, mechanical science, and suchlike things during the Hellenistic era? All of the Greek states and Hellenistic monarchies kept vast quantities of slaves. Or take the assertions by many historians of the Industrial Revolution that slave labor-supplied raw material inputs are directly correlated with increases in productivity in Great Britain in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries. Slavery didn't stifle innovation in those societies; in fact, it may have helped to enable it.For another thing, I strongly disagree with the characterization of post-Roman Europe as being a technological black hole. This is not merely a case of agricultural, navigational, and metalworking development - although all of those things happened in the centuries immediately following western Rome's political end - but of philosophy, literature, and historical thought. Scholars like Gregory of Tours, Gregory the Great, or Boethius were just as learned and literate as their late-Roman counterparts like C. Sollius Sidonius Apollinaris, Q. Aurelius Symmachus, and Ammianus Marcellinus. Early medieval Ireland - admittedly, not technically a "post-Roman" society - may have been the most literate society in the world of its time. Documentary evidence certainly doesn't disappear (except for Britain, and even then only for two centuries). Tell any medievalist that she's studying a period full of illiterate, backwards idiots, and she will cackle maniacally as she buries you under several tons of chartulary papers. And she will also point out that apart from places like Egypt, written records have a hard time surviving the millennia anyway, due to climate conditions as much as anything else. The quality of historical writing was fine, too, especially when you consider that classical historians weren't that good (and were kind of obsessed with referential nonsense the only point of which was to show how well-read they were); arguably, the explosion of hagiographical works in medieval Europe - which had no equivalent in classical society - indicated a better standard than had existed previously.It's really hard to quantify just how much daily life changed for any given individual in western Europe. The poorest farmers were hardly any worse off; by the seventh and eighth centuries, the richest Frankish and Gothic magnates equaled their Roman predecessors in wealth. Long-distance trade didn't do incredibly well, but long-distance trade is almost totally negligible for all of human history up to the nineteenth century or so compared to regional trade, so that doesn't tell us much. Henri Pirenne's study of trade collapse in the Mediterranean is now widely discredited due to his focus on luxury items that virtually nobody would be able to acquire anyway, and irrelevant due to its total lack of archaeological data. The archaeology itself is equivocal, indicating regions of increased trade, manufacturing, and prosperity (e.g. the northern Gallic-Ardennes-Rhineland region, the core of the Merovingian monarchy) and areas where things weren't so rosy (e.g. southern Britain, inland Spain).Tax structures did not entirely disappear; all post-Roman kingdoms for which we have data (i.e. "not Britain") seem to have taxed into the seventh century. But they slowed down and eventually stopped, not because they "forgot how" to tax, but because armies had become landed instead of directly paid, eliminating the single largest budget item in the old Roman fisc. Without paid troops, tax was less and less relevant. And this was a change that to a significant extent had already started under Rome, with the provision of the annona and the establishment of large, mostly stationary regional armies based on specific territories. Post-Roman rulers simply cut out more of the middlemen. Is that indicative of technological decline?You claim that some technological innovations didn't come from within Europe, but from outside it. I...am not sure that that matters. It's equivalent to a claim that modern France is a technologically backward society because the French didn't come up with the iPhone. And that's without getting into whether the stirrup and gunpowder were particularly "important" technologies - very debatable, especially in the case of the stirrup - and whether the lag time between their development outside Europe and their development inside Europe actually meant anything.The point is that the picture of the Roman Empire, technology, and the so-called "Dark Ages" is a great deal more equivocal than you're getting across.Thirdly, the "800 years" thing is just silly. Leave aside the matters of the Carolingian "renaissance", the creation of settled, economically complex societies across Central and Eastern Europe that didn't even exist when Rome was around, the existence of the Byzantine and Umayyad empires, and suchlike things. I'm not even sure what you're ostensibly measuring. If it's this ahistorical farce, then, well...no. Just no.And finally, more minor quibbles. Stirrups are first attested in European records by the Byzantine military text Strategikon, popularly attributed to the Emperor Maurikios, who described them as being used by the Avars, not the Mongols. That's a good six centuries off. Plague is usually described as a consequence of trade (or rather, "large-scale movements of peoples over long distances"), not an inhibitor of it. And "noble prerogatives" inhibiting peasant-based technological innovation are a total red herring; I'm not sure what peasants have to do with technological change, nor am I sure why aristocrats aren't associated with it. It's not like people lose 50 IQ points when they get titles.---Fundamentally, though, comparing Thedosian technological change to historical technological change is pointless. The setting has seen relatively little technological change not because of historical processes, but because of the demands of the story. Fantasy settings usually have an ahistorical approach to technology because frankly it's easier that way. If things don't change much, the timeline is clay: it can be manipulated at will without regard to factors like new technology. The setting can still be described in the same way, rendering it easily recognizable to readers and allowing writers to emphasize other differences without technology in the way.There are an awful lot of fantasy settings that inhabit a weird realm that draw bits and pieces of mishmashed, mutated, and poorly understood versions of "Middle Ages" history. (Arda and Westeros are both excellent and well-known examples.) Trying to use historical processes to understand them is missing the point.


Some very good points in this. I hate how a lot of people believe the stereotypical image of the "Dark Ages". In truth, Western Europe still had a lot going on, just not on the same scale as Rome did.

#336
TheBlackAdder13

TheBlackAdder13
  • Members
  • 776 messages

So why hasn't Bioware done any publicity for Last Flight? Unlike for Asunder and The Masked Empire, I haven't seen any official announcements and not even any references on social media. Or any discussion from the devs about it here. In fact, I wouldn't even know it existed if not for these forums. Why haven't they so much as mentioned it? It's like they're trying not to sell their book....



#337
fighterchick

fighterchick
  • Members
  • 1 141 messages

Considering how dangerous a threat the Blight really is, I disagree

 

How dangerous is it going to be when there are no more blights and the darkspawn are no longer mindlessly searching for an old god to taint?  Without the taint driving them to dig, won't they have their own minds again?  What if there are thousands upon thousands of thinking darkspawn no longer driven by an archdemon?  I think that's ultimately going to be a lot worse than the blight.



#338
Hellion Rex

Hellion Rex
  • Members
  • 30 037 messages

How dangerous is it going to be when there are no more blights and the darkspawn are no longer mindlessly searching for an old god to taint? Without the taint driving them to dig, won't they have their own minds again? What if there are thousands upon thousands of thinking darkspawn no longer driven by an archdemon? I think that's ultimately going to be a lot worse than the blight.

That's assuming that Darkspawn will even survive the loss of the last Archdemon. We don't know what the repercussions are of killing the last Archdemon. Lol, for all we know the darkspawn could spontaneously combust when the last Archdemon dies.

#339
Guest_john_sheparrd_*

Guest_john_sheparrd_*
  • Guests

So is the book worth reading?
Does it set up anything for DA:I like Asunder and Masked Empire which I both enjoyed?



#340
A Clever Name

A Clever Name
  • Members
  • 229 messages

So is the book worth reading?
Does it set up anything for DA:I like Asunder and Masked Empire which I both enjoyed?

Just finished it a few minutes ago.  Personally I liked the prose more in Last Flight, and felt it was more enjoyable to read as a stand-alone novel.  Asunder and The Masked Empire have more tie-in material definitely, but Last Flight does on occasion make mention of problems that could very well arise in the main plot of DA:I - just don't expect it to be nearly as relevant to the books as, say, the Mage-Templar conflict was to Asunder.

 

I would highly recommend it.  Excellently written, great characterization...and it really drove home some of the finer points of the lore you don't get by playing the games.



#341
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
  • Members
  • 8 491 messages

They are no saint, and they do what necessary to defeat the Darkspawn. Frankly, there are two kinds of people among the wardens ranks those who would sacrifice themselves to protect the innocent, and those who will do whatever necessary to defeat the Blight tbh it was desperate times during 4th Blight, and since Darkspawn are one of the largest threat to Thedas they can't always play by the rules if they hope to win.

They didn't burn down entire cities or villages for fun or for their own gains, they do it to fight the Darkspawn and stop the taint from spreading, and if they always follow ethical constraints then they can't defeat the Darkspawn at all.  I can think of the other organization that's entirely self-serving and seek to destroy everything in its path, or sacrifice innocent for its own interest while the Grey Warden lean towards more of Chaotic Good, if you follow d&d alignment.

They aren't chaotic good at all they are more true neutral way too ruthless to be seen as d&d "good" and they aren't rly chaotic but that is organization alignment individual member can be anywhere.



#342
Fearsome1

Fearsome1
  • Members
  • 1 195 messages

Mine arrived in the mail yesterday evening, during a deluge wrapped in a monsoon weather pattern. At least the UPS courier had placed my envelope into a plastic trash bag for extra protection. I'm already a hundred pages or so into Last Flight, and I won't spoil the book for anyone.

 

It grabbed me right from the outset and I can't wait to finish it. I had previously read Asunder and The Masked Empire and enjoyed both of those. I'm considering seeking out the first two novels now.



#343
fighterchick

fighterchick
  • Members
  • 1 141 messages

So is the book worth reading?
Does it set up anything for DA:I like Asunder and Masked Empire which I both enjoyed?

 

It doesn't feel like a must read for the upcoming game.  It has interesting insights on the fourth blight, but barely makes any mention of the current state of the world.  A good novel just as a stand alone rather than direct tie in. 



#344
serenityfails

serenityfails
  • Members
  • 33 messages

It came up earlier in the thread, but nobody seemed to notice the thing about it that's bothering me.

 

Spoiler
 

 

Someone already brought up the Qunari thing.

 

Another minor thing that's nagging at me:

Spoiler

 

The other things that were bugging me as I was reading I had to chalk up to it being set in the Anderfels. Things like every elf growing up knowing about Garahel, or uninitiated people knowing intimate details about the Joining ritual when it's supposed to be this terrible secret.


  • ev76 aime ceci

#345
fighterchick

fighterchick
  • Members
  • 1 141 messages

It came up earlier in the thread, but nobody seemed to notice the thing about it that's bothering me.

 

Spoiler
 

 

Someone already brought up the Qunari thing.

 

Another minor thing that's nagging at me:

Spoiler

 

The other things that were bugging me as I was reading I had to chalk up to it being set in the Anderfels. Things like every elf growing up knowing about Garahel, or uninitiated people knowing intimate details about the Joining ritual when it's supposed to be this terrible secret.

 

I always thought that the aravels were part magic part Halla.  Something so huge seems to be too heavy for just the halla to move, particularly since they are are traveling through the forest and hilly areas, I always assumed magic was heavily involved in that.  I'm not sure if they are ever explicitedly stated to use magic, but I think it's a possibility. 

 

Also, looking at the codex: http://dragonage.wik..._entry:_Aravels

 

It does appear to say that the aravels "fly".  Not sure if literal, or metaphorical.

 

I disliked the joining ritual secrets, too.  I thought most people thought Wardens were immune to the taint, not slowly dying from it, yet everyone seemed to know that.



#346
PhroXenGold

PhroXenGold
  • Members
  • 1 855 messages

 
This is something of a tired trope that only has legs because it is at least half true.

...

 

That was a fanatstic post (sorry I cropped it to save space). It's really depressing how often utterly ignorant views of the so-called "dark ages" and technological development come up. The "chart" you linked to does seem to tie in with the some of the reasons behind this - an attempt to discredit Christianity [arguably going all the way back to Gibbon's Decline and Fall...] - but I still hear it from far too many people that really should know better.

 

Don't suppose you mind if I copy that post to use in the future? It's far better written than my usual attempts at putting forward a vaguely accurate view on the subject.


  • X Equestris aime ceci

#347
Ihatebadgames

Ihatebadgames
  • Members
  • 1 436 messages

The old ships needed mages and spells.Everyone that knew the spell probably died. A hundred year blight doesn't leave many colleges. Or the next blight wiped out the written down spells. Or a dragon attack burned down the college that had the last book with the spell. A blight every 200-400  years with dragon attacks sprinkled = lots of burned paper.



#348
wcholcombe

wcholcombe
  • Members
  • 2 738 messages
On the previously mentioned subject of possession/abominations, it happens a lot during blights with both apostates and wardens becoming abominations when facing the horde.


There is a very humanizing viewpoint of the templars that is refreshing following DA2.

Also several references to the state of the world after asunder. Including a reference to a possible divide in the Templars.

#349
wcholcombe

wcholcombe
  • Members
  • 2 738 messages
Also on the subject of blood mages and demons

Spoiler


#350
wcholcombe

wcholcombe
  • Members
  • 2 738 messages

It came up earlier in the thread, but nobody seemed to notice the thing about it that's bothering me.

Spoiler


Someone already brought up the Qunari thing.

Another minor thing that's nagging at me:
Spoiler


The other things that were bugging me as I was reading I had to chalk up to it being set in the Anderfels. Things like every elf growing up knowing about Garahel, or uninitiated people knowing intimate details about the Joining ritual when it's supposed to be this terrible secret.


On the joining, I am certain during the a blight it can become common knowledge as it has to be a pretty regular event. The characters in weishaupt would probably be aware of it just from being around it.

As for him becoming a warden during the 4th blight, that could have been after the Arch demon has fallen but still cleaning up the darkspawn.