Just force the Joining on the elves, dwarves and humans. It's as insidious as what they did - but why should it bother them? The Blight is SO dangerous after all.
Because people can refuse to join if the countries don't want the wardens to join. Plus, griffon lives aren't as valuable as elf, dwarven, and human lives.
@PhroXenGold: You're always facing destruction my friend... and one day you're going to fall... the way you live your life is ALL you have going for you.
And what your last paragraph suggests is absolutely repugnant to me.
I would hope - if the griffons truly are as smart as mabari - that they slaughtered the Wardens wholesale if they tried that again. After all - their populations are going to be wiped out anyway right? So it hardly matters if they die to the Wardens or the Blight - following the anthropocentric logic in this thread.
@HiroVoid: You could force the humans/dwarves/elves the same way they forced the griffons.
And - that value judgement you're making is simply opinion and not, at all, scientific fact. In fact, I'd argue that resource devouring sapient species who are direct opponents to the natural order followed by the other millions of species on Thedas... makes those three sapient species actually less valuable than the griffons (who likely add, and not subtract, to their ecosystem).
Not even arguing the fact that the Darkspawn only exist because of the elves/dwarves/humans... and I don't care about the Black City... we know where Brood Mothers come from.
@PhroXenGold: You're always facing destruction my friend... and one day you're going to fall... the way you live your life is ALL you have going for you.
And what your last paragraph suggests is absolutely repugnant to me.
I would hope - if the griffons truly are as smart as mabari - that they slaughtered the Wardens wholesale if they tried that again. After all - their populations are going to be wiped out anyway right? So it hardly matters if they die to the Wardens or the Blight - following the anthropocentric logic in this thread.
The way I describe is purely in the service of others. To sacrifice everything, life, honour, even morality for the sake of others. You are too selfish to go that far.
And yes, it is repugnant. But if thats what it takes, then it should be done.
Or, if they are intelligent, then they might understand that it is the best hope of survival for them too. Much like with humans, a portion of the species sacrifices themselves to the taint to protect the rest.
@PhroXenGold: Interesting how you're willing to sacrifice an entire other species before your own life... and then call me selfish.
You should be long dead before this is ever considered - if you're so magnanimous.
@PhroXenGold: Interesting how you're willing to sacrifice an entire other species before your own life... and then call me selfish.
You should be long dead before this is ever considered - if you're so magnanimous.
If my death would lead to the greatest chance of victory, then yes. If my death would be a pointless sacrifice, then no.
Everyone is selfish but pretty much everyone sane will do everything to survive.
@PhroXenGold: And they knew, for a fact, that using the griffons was going to guarantee victory... and wasn't a "pointless sacrifice"?
You're justifying it only because it worked.
Had it not - would you still say it was worth a try? If so, then I would argue that throwing you at more Darkspawn in the even that you "might" get the killing blow against the Archdaemon is certainly "worth a try" before putting an entire species in the history books.
You're just one man - the griffons are an entire species that, despite writer kindness, would never be able to come back. Much better to risk you "just in case" before the griffons.
Again - I shouldn't even be entertaining this train of thought... humans are craven and will do anything to survive.
@PhroXenGold: And they knew, for a fact, that using the griffons was going to guarantee victory... and wasn't a "pointless sacrifice"?
You're justifying it only because it worked.
Had it not - would you still say it was worth a try? If so, then I would argue that throwing you at more Darkspawn in the even that you "might" get the killing blow against the Archdaemon is certainly "worth a try" before putting an entire species in the history books.
You're just one man - the griffons are an entire species that, despite writer kindness, would never be able to come back. Much better to risk you "just in case" before the Darkspawn.
Guaranteed victory? No of course not. Did it raise the chances of victory? Yes. And that is why it was the right decision. Even knowing the consequences - which, remember, they did not - I would still say it was the right decision for that reason.
Everyone is selfish but pretty much everyone sane will do everything to survive.
@Lulupad: So... killing the griffons is the peak of selflessness now is it?
Not everyone will do anything for survival of others. Sacrificing everything even morality itself so that others can live and don't have to be the ones sacrificing. Its the peak of selflessness.
Not rly when pushed peoples very quickly forget about such senseless things like morality and this isn't rly selflessness you still screw someone for peoples you think that are worthy.Simple if you sacrifice someone you always do that for your own goal.
@Lulupad: So... killing the griffons is the peak of selflessness now is it?
Guaranteed victory? No of course not. Did it raise the chances of victory? Yes. And that is why it was the right decision. Even knowing the consequences - which, remember, they did not - I would still say it was the right decision for that reason.
Not rly when pushed peoples very quickly forget about such senseless things like morality and this isn't rly selflessness you still screw someone for peoples you think that are worthy.Simple if you sacrifice someone you always do that for your own goal.
@Lulupab: Are these people willing - or am I dragging them to my facilities forcibly?
The danger from my end, comes with my opinion of the human race as an important species to the earth ecosystem. I will die, there's no arguing it or raging against it, and my concern for the continuation of the species is non-existent.
Stars burn out wiping out solar systems - black wholes drink large portions of galaxies - to think one species, sharing a blue spec with millions of other species, is somehow of some universally scientific value - doesn't really register to me.
So - would I "let" the human race go extinct. I cannot say that it would not be enticing. It's an invasive species that has, for all intents and purposes, put the other 2 million species on the brink of extinction. The virus is just nature trying to develop a vaccine for a disease endangering the whole.
What might coerce me - is that choosing their deaths, over the deaths of the supposed "sacrifices" is in equal measure wrong and greater measure due to the amount of beings who's free will I would be taking from them by allowing the virus to run it's natural course.
Whether or not I sacrificed your relative to stop the virus and save the human race from extinction... I would never, ever consider myself anything but a monster if I forced a group of people to die to save the rest. There would be no victory for me, no celebration, no excuses as to "why" I did it. I would likely seek seclusion and anonymity.
You can say I wouldn't - that's you're prerogative - but anyone who knew me knows I would never see a situation like this as anything but the "least horrible failure".
And that is NOT the same as: "Regrettable sure, but excuse excuse excuse... "
Given that grey wardens are tormented by the taint all their lives, their selfishness is connected to interest of all other selfish beings. In other words grey wardens are selfish so that other selfish people can live. They are selfish and selfless at the same time. We breed and feed chickens and we kill them and eat them to survive. Grey wardens do the same but it went awry and killed all of them. And that is the difference between science and magic.
As i said it doesn't rly matter that they are tormented they just see their goal more important same as for example terrorist that blow himself up but still harmed peoples/beings for own goal whatever it was.So in the end everyone is selfish as i said what was my point by writing first post.But i see wardens nothing more as tools brainwashed by dogma same as terrorist that mentioned above.
Bringing up another topic, does anyone else think the retreat and sky hold are one and the same. I know it was in the Vindmark mountains, but the description sounds like it.
People really need to stop leaving empty fortresses lying around.
@Lulupab: Are these people willing - or am I dragging them to my facilities forcibly?
The danger from my end, comes with my opinion of the human race as an important species to the earth ecosystem. I will die, there's no arguing it or raging against it, and my concern for the continuation of the species is non-existent.
Stars burn out wiping out solar systems - black wholes drink large portions of galaxies - to think one species, sharing a blue spec with millions of other species, is somehow of some universally scientific value - doesn't really register to me.
So - would I "let" the human race go extinct. I cannot say that it would not be enticing. It's an invasive species that has, for all intents and purposes, put the other 2 million species on the brink of extinction. The virus is just nature trying to develop a vaccine for a disease endangering the whole.
What might coerce me - is that choosing their deaths, over the deaths of the supposed "sacrifices" is in equal measure wrong and greater measure due to the amount of beings who's free will I would be taking from them by allowing the virus to run it's natural course.
Whether or not I sacrificed your relative to stop the virus and save the human race from extinction... I would never, ever consider myself anything but a monster if I forced a group of people to die to save the rest. There would be no victory for me, no celebration, no excuses as to "why" I did it. I would likely seek seclusion and anonymity.
You can say I wouldn't - that's you're prerogative - but anyone who knew me knows I would never see a situation like this as anything but the "least horrible failure".
And that is NOT the same as: "Regrettable sure, but excuse excuse excuse... "
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think the Wardens have a place in this world. I'd defend the idea of them at least.
I only have a little resentment towards them because I played one. I don't personally like the experience of being a Warden. People talk trash about Hawke all the time, but I hope to never have a hero like the Warden again.
I don't care for the general themes of sacrifice and unflinching duty either. It's cheesy military crap that pervades the entire game industry, wrapped in fantasy clothing.
Let's remember that a Warden-Commander thought it was a good idea to help the Architect forcing all peoples of Thedas to take the joining. Wardens do what it takes, yes they have to do it. But sometimes they just take the easy way, even if it's not the best. I don't know what happened in the fourth blight, so I'm not upset with the wardens for abusing the griffons, but let's not preventively justify the Wardens just because they have a great goal and are fully committed to it. They have nasty skelentons in their closet.
Guest_BioWareMod02_*
Hey everyone. Please keep it on topic and civil and avoid personalizing so we can keep this thread open. Thank you.
Let's remember that a Warden-Commander thought it was a good idea to help the Architect forcing all peoples of Thedas to take the joining. Wardens do what it takes, yes they have to do it. But sometimes they just take the easy way, even if it's not the best. I don't know what happened in the fourth blight, so I'm not upset with the wardens for abusing the griffons, but let's not preventively justify the Wardens just because they have a great goal and are fully committed to it. They have nasty skelentons in their closet.
A warden driven mad by the calling isn't exactly a good reference.
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