148 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

And here I thought Shepard was chosen because people bought and played the game.

If you can't win without becoming a monster, did you really win?

Is Butcher of Torfan a monster? Or one who sacrifices thousands of human/alien lives to save/sacrifice the Council? Or one who kills 300,000 Batarians on Aratoht? The series are filled with such acts the final choice doesn't change what you've become after all three games.
Persuading the Catalyst? Please. You broker a peace in the face of a common threat and no one can tell for how long it'll last and what will come out of it. You can bet the galaxy on it, but an AI can't take such a gamble.

[Nogroson]

Strange game.

The only winning move is not to play.

Wargames

[Iakus]

Is Butcher of Torfan a monster? 

Mine thought so.  When asked about how he dealt with it, he said he considered what happened a failing on his part and resolved to never let something like that happen again.

 

 

 

Or one who sacrifices thousands of human/alien lives to save/sacrifice the Council? 

They die armed and facing their enemy, knowing what they are fighting and dying for.  They do not fall before inscrutable space magic sent out by their supposed ally.

 

 

 

Or one who kills 300,000 Batarians on Aratoht?  

One who tries to warn them, even if the plot hammer does not allow such an attempt to be succesful

 

 

 

 The series are filled with such acts the final choice doesn't change what you've become after all three games.  Persuading the Catalyst? Please. You broker a peace in the face of a common threat and no one can tell for how long it'll last and what will come out of it. You can bet the galaxy on it, but an AI can't take such a gamble.

 

If you're someone who fights for the lives and the self-determination of all species, it darn well changes you.   

[Coyotebay]

Whatever one thinks of the ending choices, making it a choice at the end to me dilutes the impact.  You look at Dragon Age: Origins, there is just one ending - you kill the demon dragon Urthemiel.  And it's epic, a truly great and exhilarating moment.  If the end had been for you to decide whether to kill the dragon, capture and control the dragon, or make peace with the dragon, it would have undermined the whole impact of that final scene.  Mass Effect had built up to a final confrontation with the Reapers over three games with one objective: stop the Reapers and save the galaxy.  Turning it into a moral and philosophical discussion at the end transformed it from a thrilling finish into an intellectual college debate.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Mass Effect had built up to a final confrontation with the Reapers over three games with one objective: stop the Reapers and save the galaxy.  Turning it into a moral and philosophical discussion at the end transformed it from a thrilling finish into an intellectual college debate.

 

lol

 

You realize that stopping the Reapers and saving the galaxy is exactly what ME3 ends with (stupid symbolic arguments aside)?

 

Only until EC added Refuse option did that change.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Is Butcher of Torfan a monster? Or one who sacrifices thousands of human/alien lives to save/sacrifice the Council? Or one who kills 300,000 Batarians on Aratoht? The series are filled with such acts the final choice doesn't change what you've become after all three games.
Persuading the Catalyst? Please. You broker a peace in the face of a common threat and no one can tell for how long it'll last and what will come out of it. You can bet the galaxy on it, but an AI can't take such a gamble.

 

Butcher of Torfan? Well, it depends upon how you look at it. I'm pretty sure those being held by the Batarians on Torfan considered her to be the "Liberator of Torfan" and thought those Batarians got what they deserved. A Colonist Shepard would have considered it payback. Who knows? Maybe the sergeant who killed her parents was in command of the Batarians?

 

Khalisah was the reporter we were supposed to hate, but Emily Wong was the one who called her The Butcher of Torfan. Damned liberal media. That's Batarian propaganda. The Alliance would have spun it to "Liberator of Torfan." But we were so desperate for money at the time that we did her fetch quest. However if we hacked and gave ourselves 999999999 CR we could simply not do her quest.

 

And really? Warning could not be successful. Science fiction writers have no sense of scale. Even 2 hrs warning to evacuate a planet it would take the communication probably 2 hrs to reach Aratoht. Think, Shepard. Communication travels at the speed of light within systems. Please note that the distance between the worlds are not to scale on these drawings. If they were, the gravitational fields would tear the worlds apart when they passed. If we guesstimate that the first planet is .5 AU and Aratoht is 1 AU then, and each orbit doubles, then the asteroid belt is 16 AU. It would take 2 hrs 5 mins for the communication to reach Aratoht from the asteroid.

 

 

And given that the blast from the relay travels at the speed of light, they have 2 - 3 hrs to evacuate the entire planet. This means 1) Authorities believing your warning; 2) then notifiying other colony authorities and getting everyone to shuttles (panic); 3) and getting to the mass relay before the asteroid --- impossible. The train must stay on the rails. End result is that it doesn't matter - The only choice that does matter in this case is if you tell Admiral Hackett: "I'm busy," and not do it. Hackett will send in the 105th marines to do the job.

 

And another huge plot hole? There is no way that the reapers would have been able to detect the blast before it reached them. It travels at the speed of light.

 

My guess is that the workers on the asteroid had some kind of weird altar rigged up at the communications tower that used the mass relay for reaper worship where they made direct contact with Harbinger.

 

But if you're a good person, and you know with certainty that using the crucible would allow you to control the reapers (the damage to the relays was bullsh*t in this ending - the blue wave and explosions were completely unnecessary - only new orders from the boss were needed), then choosing Control was the answer. Only your personal sacrifice was needed to end the war. No one else dies.

[Vazgen]

Emily Wong was the one who called her The Butcher of Torfan

Major Kyle, Shepard's commanding officer during Torfan events, calls him that as well.

They die armed and facing their enemy, knowing what they are fighting and dying for.  They do not fall before inscrutable space magic sent out by their supposed ally.

Do the asari on Destiny Ascension know what are they dying for? Your orders result in death of thousands in either case. Torfan of a larger scale.

One who tries to warn them, even if the plot hammer does not allow such an attempt to be succesful

Shepard's warning is among the asinine lines of the series, like "I thought the asari need other species to reproduce". There is no way Shepard's warning can result in saved lives. sH0tgUn jUliA summarizes it quite well.

There is no way that the reapers would have been able to detect the blast before it reached them. It travels at the speed of light.

Do you refer to Harbringer's hologram? If so, the Object Rho is still on the asteroid and they know what happens to it. Amanda Kenson, their indoctrinated servant, is also there.

If you're someone who fights for the lives and the self-determination of all species, it darn well changes you.

Then choose Control.

[Coyotebay]

lol
 
You realize that stopping the Reapers and saving the galaxy is exactly what ME3 ends with (stupid symbolic arguments aside)?
 
Only until EC added Refuse option did that change.

You miss my point. You don't stop the Reapers in one choice, you join with them. In another you control them, but they're still out there and never suffer any consequences for what they have done.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes they know what happens to Object Rho, but the communication is not instantaneous either.

 

Object Rho. Now there's another plot hole. Here is a machine race that is so anally careful about not leaving anything around the galaxy to tip anyone off as to their existence that they clean up reaperized flea feces. Yet it seems like Harby, Sovvy, and crew threw a raver after the last harvest, used a reaper version of a GoPro camera, took vids of each other, woke up drunk, said their farewells, and forgot about it.

 

Why would the reapers leave something like this behind for someone to find and learn about their existence let alone build it? What was it for anyway? Was it some sort of beacon for the reapers in case their perfect AI God forgot where the Alpha Relay was (I control the reapers. They are my solution.)? Or was it some sort of Reaper Beacon so they could find their way to the back door into the galaxy just in case the Protheans pulled some shenanigans? The Reapers knew what kind of trolls they were. If there was going to be any trouble it was going to be from Protheans. Hmmm... There really was no purpose for its existence other than for Amanda Kenson to find it so that Shepard could blow up the relay.

 

----

 

In the Control option, you kill the Catalyst. You replace the data files that make it who it is. The Catalyst was responsible for the harvest. The Reapers were just machines doing what they were told.

[Vazgen]

Yes they know what happens to Object Rho, but the communication is not instantaneous either.

 

Object Rho. Now there's another plot hole. Here is a machine race that is so anally careful about not leaving anything around the galaxy to tip anyone off as to their existence. Yet it seems like Harby, Sovvy, and crew threw a raver after the last harvest, used a reaper version of a GoPro camera, took vids of each other, woke up drunk, said their farewells, and forgot about it.

 

Why would the reapers leave something like this behind for someone to find and learn about their existence let alone build it? What was it for anyway? Was it some sort of beacon for the reapers in case their perfect AI God forgot where the Alpha Relay was (I control the reapers. They are my solution.)? Or was it some sort of Reaper Beacon so they could find their way to the back door into the galaxy just in case the Protheans pulled some shenanigans? The Reapers knew what kind of trolls they were. If there was going to be any trouble it was going to be from Protheans. Hmmm... There really was no purpose for its existence other than for Amanda Kenson to find it so that Shepard could blow up the relay.

 

----

 

In the Control option, you kill the Catalyst. You replace the data files that make it who it is. The Catalyst was responsible for the harvest. The Reapers were just machines doing what they were told.

I'd say it's pretty much instantaneous (which is the real plot hole). In Mass Effect Evolution, Jack Harper (future TIM) "feels the call" of the Reaper artifact from across the galaxy. There should be a way to disrupt Reaper communications but given the dangers of working with Reaper tech and limited knowledge of it, it's impossible to determine the correct algorithms before the harvest begins.

They do not clear the galaxy of their tech, in fact, mass relays and Citadel are deliberately left behind. What they do clear out is the evidence of their intentions. I think there are quite a few of those artifacts hidden in the universe. They serve as beacons IMO, to guide the Reapers through the dark space if the Citadel beacon is malfunctioning. The indoctrination capabilities of these devices guarantee that no one will learn their true purpose without becoming Reaper slave.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ah, yes. Mass Effect Evolution.... where Reaper Artifacts were introduced.... and the meticulousness of the reaper cleaning up from the previous works was thrown out the window.

 

It appears like the Reapers throw a raver after their most challenging harvests. The Protheans were one, and apparently there were at least a couple more... you know where the Leviathan of Dis was destroyed, and "Bob from Marketing" was destroyed 37 million years ago. "Whew, we're glad to have gotten through this without any real heavy losses. What say we throw a raver? I've made a GoPro camera and we can make some vids for funzies."

 

"Yeah, that sounds like an idea."

 

So they do that, and a week later... "Let's see those vids we took."

 

"Oh. Crap! I left the camera on some asteroid."

"You didn't."

"Yeah I did. Can't remember which one."

"Crap. The boss is going to kill us if he finds out."

"Don't worry about it. Harby was passed out."

 

37,000,000 years later..... Jack Harper..... I'm feeling called to a spot across the galaxy. What could it be? It's a mystery.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

You miss my point. You don't stop the Reapers in one choice, you join with them. In another you control them, but they're still out there and never suffer any consequences for what they have done.

 

You make no point. Controlling and "joining" with the Reapers both stop them. End-game datapad even says the Reapers are stopped.

[AlanC9]

I guess his point is that that stopping the Reapers isn't the point. The point is to punish them. I don't quite see how eternal slavery isn't punishment, though.

I'm also not clear what the point of punishing them is. It's not like any of this was their idea.

[Iakus]

 

Do the asari on Destiny Ascension know what are they dying for? Your orders result in death of thousands in either case. Torfan of a larger scale.

 

 

They die fighting the geth.  Protecting the Citadel and the Council, though they fail at it.  The Alliance cruisers die defending the Destiny Ascension, and they know it.

 

 

 

Shepard's warning is among the asinine lines of the series, like "I thought the asari need other species to reproduce". There is no way Shepard's warning can result in saved lives. sH0tgUn jUliA summarizes it quite well.

 

They may not be able to evacuate the colony, but any ships in the area could have potential escaped via ftl.  Similarly, colonists might have been able to reach shelters.  maybe it would not have done any good, but some might have been able to brace themselves.

 

The important thing is being able to make the effort,

 

 

 

 
Then choose Control.

No.  Control is a negotiated surrender to the Reapers.  It's what the geth did.  "Submission is preferable to extinction".  I fight for self determination.

[Vazgen]

They die fighting the geth.  Protecting the Citadel and the Council, though they fail at it.  The Alliance cruisers die defending the Destiny Ascension, and they know it.

You either sacrifice thousands for the mission or betray thousands. First is the same thing as Torfan, only on a larger scale. Second is, well, betrayal

 

They may not be able to evacuate the colony, but any ships in the area could have potential escaped via ftl.  Similarly, colonists might have been able to reach shelters.  maybe it would not have done any good, but some might have been able to brace themselves.

The important thing is being able to make the effort,

That's assuming someone would believe a human in a Batarian space. You literally have minutes before escaping, your intention of warning people is basically a waste of time. But let's assume someone would believe an unknown human telling everyone that mass relays (always thought indestructible) is about to blow up along with the whole system. Maybe 10 ships, 20, 100 if so you wish will escape. What of the other 299900 people? You sacrifice them to merely slow Reapers down. Shepard says afterwards (paragon response) "They died to save trillions of lives. If I could've saved them you bet your ass I would have". It's the same thing as Destroy ending

 

No.  Control is a negotiated surrender to the Reapers.  It's what the geth did.  "Submission is preferable to extinction".  I fight for self determination.

The endings are about sacrifice, about doing what's necessary to end the war. If your Shepard can't make hard decisions then Refuse is his/her only option. Because that ending is exactly what should happen when you put such a character in charge of a galactic war for survival. 

[themikefest]

There is no sacrifice in destroy.  Shoot the tube, reapers destroyed.  Now have the future you want.

[fhs33721]

Whatever one thinks of the ending choices, making it a choice at the end to me dilutes the impact.  You look at Dragon Age: Origins, there is just one ending - you kill the demon dragon Urthemiel.  And it's epic, a truly great and exhilarating moment.  If the end had been for you to decide whether to kill the dragon, capture and control the dragon, or make peace with the dragon, it would have undermined the whole impact of that final scene.  Mass Effect had built up to a final confrontation with the Reapers over three games with one objective: stop the Reapers and save the galaxy.  Turning it into a moral and philosophical discussion at the end transformed it from a thrilling finish into an intellectual college debate.

Morrigan disapproves -10

 

This claim is false. You do get a choice to (kind of) spare Urthemiel in Dragon Age Origins.

 

No.  Control is a negotiated surrender to the Reapers.  It's what the geth did.  "Submission is preferable to extinction".  I fight for self determination.

What? I'm pretty sure taking over everything the enemy has does equal complete victory for most people. If anything it is the cataclyst surrendering to Shepard.

[Iakus]

You either sacrifice thousands for the mission or betray thousands. First is the same thing as Torfan, only on a larger scale. Second is, well, betrayal

 

 

There's a world of difference between sending soldiers into battle knowing they won't all come back, and shooting your own people because they're in your way.

 

 

That's assuming someone would believe a human in a Batarian space. You literally have minutes before escaping, your intention of warning people is basically a waste of time. But let's assume someone would believe an unknown human telling everyone that mass relays (always thought indestructible) is about to blow up along with the whole system. Maybe 10 ships, 20, 100 if so you wish will escape. What of the other 299900 people? You sacrifice them to merely slow Reapers down. Shepard says afterwards (paragon response) "They died to save trillions of lives. If I could've saved them you bet your ass I would have". It's the same thing as Destroy ending

 

I can't control what they will do with the information, or even if they will believe it.  But even one in a million is a better chance than what Shepard gives the synthetics in Destroy.  Heck Shepard doesn't even give them a chance to say goodbye.  Being able to attempt to ssend that message is pretty much the only thing that made the Arrival incident at all palatable to me.

 

 

The endings are about sacrifice, about doing what's necessary to end the war. If your Shepard can't make hard decisions then Refuse is his/her only option. Because that ending is exactly what should happen when you put such a character in charge of a galactic war for survival.

If we're talking about "what really should have happened" Then Shepard's corpse should still be a frozen block on Alchera, if the ammonia in the atmosphere didn't dissolve it completely.

 

No, the endings are about control.  Our Shepards=Mac Walters' Shepards=Walter White "You fight against inevitability, dust struggling against cosmic winds"  No matter how  much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference.  It's about forcing tragedy on every outcome because feelz>everything. 

[Iakus]

 

 

What? I'm pretty sure taking over everything the enemy has does equal complete victory for most people. If anything it is the cataclyst surrendering to Shepard.

Shepard doesn't take over scat.  Shepard is dead.  That charcoal briquette next to those live wires?  That's Shepard.  All Shepard did was plug in a new overlord, and that's what's running the show.

 

So instead of being turned into Reaper smoothies, the galaxy gets to be "guided" by Shepalyst instead.

 

"Okay everyone, your new reason for existence is to calculate pi to as many decimal places as possible.  Failure to comply is grounds for indoctrination or huskification"

[Vazgen]

There's a world of difference between sending soldiers into battle knowing they won't all come back, and shooting your own people because they're in your way.

 

I can't control what they will do with the information, or even if they will believe it.  But even one in a million is a better chance than what Shepard gives the synthetics in Destroy.  Heck Shepard doesn't even give them a chance to say goodbye.  Being able to attempt to ssend that message is pretty much the only thing that made the Arrival incident at all palatable to me.

 

If we're talking about "what really should have happened" Then Shepard's corpse should still be a frozen block on Alchera, if the ammonia in the atmosphere didn't dissolve it completely.

 

No, the endings are about control.  Our Shepards=Mac Walters' Shepards=Walter White "You fight against inevitability, dust struggling against cosmic winds"  No matter how  much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference.  It's about forcing tragedy on every outcome because feelz>everything. 

Except nothing is ever said about Shepard shooting his own people because they are in the way. At Torfan Shepard leads his squad into a heavily fortified base and pushes to complete the objective despite the losses. He gives the order and leads his squad into a death trap.

 

I bet it is a huge comfort to receive a message "Hello, you're about to be wiped out from existence, take the remaining few minutes to say goodbye to whomever you wish". I'd rather have them spending their last minutes with hope than to spread a message that I'm going to kill them all to stop the Reapers. Same goes for Arrival. 

 

Can't make sense of your last paragraph. "No matter how  much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference." What? So, Reapers destroyed is not making a difference? 

[Iakus]

Except nothing is ever said about Shepard shooting his own people because they are in the way. At Torfan Shepard leads his squad into a heavily fortified base and pushes to complete the objective despite the losses. He gives the order and leads his squad into a death trap.

 

I bet it is a huge comfort to receive a message "Hello, you're about to be wiped out from existence, take the remaining few minutes to say goodbye to whomever you wish". I'd rather have them spending their last minutes with hope than to spread a message that I'm going to kill them all to stop the Reapers. Same goes for Arrival. 

 

Can't make sense of your last paragraph. "No matter how  much of a difference you made, it didn't make any difference." What? So, Reapers destroyed is not making a difference? 

I am referring to the Destroy ending.  Torfan and the Destiny Ascension has Shepard sending troops into a battle which results in heavy casualties.  In Destroy, Shepard unleashes a wave that wipes out an entire form of life, enemy or no.

 

If that message can result in getting a few dozen or hundred people out of the system before the explosion.  Or maybe gets people into shelters which, however unlikely, might keep them alive until rescue showed up, yeah, I'd say it was worth it.  

 

No matter how many War Assets Shepard builds up.  No matter how many or which scientists Shepard recruits.  No matter how high the EMS score gets.  Now matter how much multiplayer time you put in.  You always stand before the catalyst with the same sadistic chocies.

 

Makes you want to leap into a giant's eye and eat its brain.

[Coyotebay]

The control ending was always an unsatisfactory ending to me because there is no comeuppance for the Reapers, they simply get a new boss.  They might as well have replaced the stargazer epilogue with someone putting a sign up in the Citadel saying, "Under New Management".

[SporkFu]

The control ending was always an unsatisfactory ending to me because there is no comeuppance for the Reapers, they simply get a new boss.  They might as well have replaced the stargazer epilogue with someone putting a sign up in the Citadel saying, "Under New Management".

I kinda like that. 

[Vazgen]

 

I am referring to the Destroy ending.  Torfan and the Destiny Ascension has Shepard sending troops into a battle which results in heavy casualties.  In Destroy, Shepard unleashes a wave that wipes out an entire form of life, enemy or no.

 

If that message can result in getting a few dozen or hundred people out of the system before the explosion.  Or maybe gets people into shelters which, however unlikely, might keep them alive until rescue showed up, yeah, I'd say it was worth it.  

 

No matter how many War Assets Shepard builds up.  No matter how many or which scientists Shepard recruits.  No matter how high the EMS score gets.  Now matter how much multiplayer time you put in.  You always stand before the catalyst with the same sadistic chocies.

 

Makes you want to leap into a giant's eye and eat its brain.

I don't see a difference. In both cases your orders cause people to die and you know that it'll be so beforehand. As for enemy or no, we haven't seen an AI that didn't try to kill us in all three games. Supposition that there is an AI out there who just wants to live in peace with organics are nothing more than that - suppositions. The geth made their choice, they didn't need Reaper code and could've joined the organics in their previous form. Also, that entire form of life is not extinguished, because it's impossible to extinguish synthetics. You can always build new ones. Sure, they will be different individually, but the form of life will remain.

Shepard knows what the explosion will be, something like supernova. No shelter can help against that. The only reason to send this message is to ease it up on your conscience - basically lying to yourself that you tried to save those lives. 

War Assets determine whether your energy wave will wipe out everything or just synthetics. And the games already established that even the combined galactic fleets at their full strength can't stop the Reapers in a head-on battle. You bet the outcome of the entire war on an unknown device of unknown origin and then you're upset that it didn't work as you hoped it would? I would love to see war assets in action, but they do serve their purpose.

[Iakus]

 

 

I don't see a difference. In both cases your orders cause people to die and you know that it'll be so beforehand. As for enemy or no, we haven't seen an AI that didn't try to kill us in all three games. Supposition that there is an AI out there who just wants to live in peace with organics are nothing more than that - suppositions. The geth made their choice, they didn't need Reaper code and could've joined the organics in their previous form. Also, that entire form of life is not extinguished, because it's impossible to extinguish synthetics. You can always build new ones. Sure, they will be different individually, but the form of life will remain.

Shepard knows what the explosion will be, something like supernova. No shelter can help against that. The only reason to send this message is to ease it up on your conscience - basically lying to yourself that you tried to save those lives. 

War Assets determine whether your energy wave will wipe out everything or just synthetics. And the games already established that even the combined galactic fleets at their full strength can't stop the Reapers in a head-on battle. You bet the outcome of the entire war on an unknown device of unknown origin and then you're upset that it didn't work as you hoped it would? I would love to see war assets in action, but they do serve their purpose.

 

There's a massive difference between "there'll be losses" compared to "everyone of this ethnicity is going to die"

 

Re:  AI, It's supposition that they are all hostile too.  I prefer to take each one as they come,  And yes, they are all extinguished.  Being able to build new ones doesn't bring back synthetics any more than having more babies brings back humans.

 

If I can't get Shepard to do everything he can, then yes, it would be lying.

 

Mass Effect 3 established that the combined fleets can't stop the Reapers.  Because we aren't dealing with hundreds, or even thousands, but (trollol) hundreds of thousands of Reapers.  the game should have ended as soon as they hit Earth.  The rest of the game is just jerking the player around.

 

Yeah putting all our trust in the MaccGuffin Device was a stupid story.  But frankly after ME2 my hopes weren't very high on that regard.  What p*sses me off is they couldn't even be bothered to make a decent ending of it.  The "sacrifice' is completely arbitrary, and in large part unnecessary.  The logic is both Insane and Troll.  The themes fly in the face of the entire trilogy.

 

But if you don't get it, you're just some uncultured plebe who doesn't understand how deep and dark it is.