Aller au contenu

Photo

Sooooooooo... equality.


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
82 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Fredward

Fredward
  • Members
  • 4 994 messages

This thread is probably gonna get locked because it isn't directly tied to the game but I'm posting it anyway since I really need to say it and I think a lot of people on here would benefit from hearing it.

 

So. Equality. In DAI, but more specifically the fanbase's reaction and idea of what equality entails.

 

Lets start with this idea that equality is a perfect number split that I've seen pretty often. People whinging about X group getting one more than they or whatever. Now if that's your idea of what equality is in this world you're gonna have a bad time. Cuz it's not about numbers. It's about having the same opportunities as the norm, to be treated the same way. To have more than one facet, to be nuanced. A real person with quirks and strengths and weaknesses who can be good and who can be bad and every shade in between. To avoid the caricature. To not be the token. To have that meatiness that more mainstream characters get without question, not to get asked "oh, I wonder what part of the population THIS character is supposed to appease." It's about being a character and a person first, being represented as such, and everything else second. Bioware delivers us this with a depth and understanding that no other AAA publisher does. They don't make gay [or whatever minority or disenfranchised group] characters that are relevant to the plot. They make characters that are relevant to the plot that just happen to be gay or whatever. And that's a thing of beauty guys.

 

So yeah. When we're talking equality numbers rank pretty low on the checklist of **** that needs to get done. Well on my checklist anyway YMMV.

 

And now we get to the real reason I started this rant. And this was sparked of by a recently locked thread, that one about there being more LIs for non-heterosexual males for a change or something. Which may or may not be the case I don't actually care because like I said I don't think equality is a numbers game. But the kind of mentality I saw there really just rustled my jimmies. And confused me. And it's not like this is the first time I've seen it, you get it a lot in minority groups.

 

And what I'm talking about here is this idea that inequality is okay as long as it affects the 'norm,' in this case heterosexual males. This is horseshit. It's this kind of reactionary, puerile, ******-for-tat mentality that just allows society to marinade in it's own built up prejudicial juices. You can't fix the past where you (or your group) were the victim of inequality by now shunting it over to your "oppressors," you can only move forward. We don't choose how we're born and this counts even for straight heterosexual males, true many of them remain apathetic because that apathy is comfortable but that in no way makes any kind of inequality towards them fair. 1

 

It's like all these groups asking for equality aren't asking for equality in a general sense they're just asking for equality for THEM. For their group. I don't know, maybe that's what they were always asking. But the impression I got was that being a SJW (not using this in a bad way btw) was aimed at equality. Full stop. Not equality for group X and then maybe equality for Y and Z eventually and we should definitely take some equality away from A because **** them they've had a lot of it already so it's fair. No dammit, that's so backwards. But it's  like the groups become so insular that all they see is themselves. It's like the ideal of equality, the thing that brought everyone together in the first place, just sort of fades into this continuously growing milieu of group interest. And that's eventually all it becomes about. Forwarding the interests of the group, even sometimes at the expense of others.

 

And that's not copacetic guys. If you say you want equality you kinda have to want it for everyone. That's the whole idea right? To be fair. And before I get a lot of flack for being just another privileged male lobbying to protect his interests, shush your face.So BSN (or whatever it is we're called now) the next time something about equality crops up (and you know it will) think about what you're saying. Reveling in the salty glory of het male tears isn't some kind of cosmic paycheck for wrongs previously suffered it's just being petty and vindictive.

 

Amen.

 

1 - Except stuff like Pride rallies, black pride and etc. Those make sense within context. These groups still have to function in a society that is predominantly not them, they need that ratification that "you exist and deserve to do so" that the norm just gets ambiently. Now unfortunately this manifests in creating an ingroup and an outgroup so it's not IDEAL but it is currently the only viable solution that I can think of anyway. They're also a great way of reminding the mainstream that you DO exist.

 

2 - I am white and male, tis true. But I'm also bisexual and disabled. It gives me an interesting vantage point because the being white and male are the most immediately salient factors so I know how they are treated, I know how easy it is to fall into the idea that there isn't really a problem or that it's being blown waaaaay out of proportion. It's easier than you'd think. At the same time being part of two different minorities helps me see how insular they can become. I mean you get LGBTQ groups for people with disabilities but it's almost like one identity wants to subsume the other yah know? The group emphasizes your sexuality, that's what they forwarded that's what they consider important and that's not really how it works. You have to want equality for all facets of a person, not just one with the second coming a distant... second. 


  • andar91, Gileadan, Minethys et 14 autres aiment ceci

#2
Guest_TrillClinton_*

Guest_TrillClinton_*
  • Guests

640px-Vector_dis_gon_b_gud.gif


  • Ulathar, Aolbain, Eternal Phoenix et 4 autres aiment ceci

#3
the_last_krogan

the_last_krogan
  • Members
  • 1 080 messages



#4
BraveVesperia

BraveVesperia
  • Members
  • 1 605 messages

Never has the phrase 'wall of text' felt so accurate.


  • Maria Caliban, Spaghetti_Ninja, Drasanil et 5 autres aiment ceci

#5
Revelat0

Revelat0
  • Members
  • 259 messages

In context to DA:I I agree, it is not about the numbers, and people must remember there is more than one type of equality. Are we talking about social equality, equal rights, economic equality, equal opportunity, etc? Obviously the OP is talking about equal opportunity and equal rights. I think DA:I will portray equal opportunity and equal rights effectively. Other forms of equality just don't exist, nothing in this world is equal physically, mentally, metaphysically, philosophically, etc. Not a bird, nor a tree, you really have to take a person one at a time in a manner that gives each individual you meet through your walk of life an opportunity to show what kind of person that are. I hope this is what Bioware portrays, grouping people together because of who they are in appearance is a primitive defensive mechanism that is best ignored.



#6
coldflame

coldflame
  • Members
  • 2 195 messages

A lot of times people get equality and vengeance mixed up on this forum. Oh and my signature explains it all about equality here on BSN.


  • Eternal Phoenix et Senya aiment ceci

#7
Muspade

Muspade
  • Members
  • 1 280 messages

This again!? Noooooo! Make it stop! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS EQUALITY IN ALL THINGS, ARRRRRGGH.

 

make-it-stop.jpg


  • Spaghetti_Ninja, Dubozz, Senya et 1 autre aiment ceci

#8
Azaron Nightblade

Azaron Nightblade
  • Members
  • 984 messages

People are selfish, regardless of what their sexual preferences are.

Nothing new there.


  • Eternal Phoenix, coldflame, Senya et 2 autres aiment ceci

#9
Shadow Fox

Shadow Fox
  • Members
  • 4 206 messages

Oh for Christ's sake...

 

One game giving females 2 extra option isn't "inequality" to straight males not even 20 games catering to non straight guys would be if anything games favoring others over straights makes things more equal given how overwhelmingly the industry favors us alone.

 

And that's the reason why people mock/lack sympathy for the whiners because they are essentially complaining about the one fish in the whole ocean that doesn't favor them.


  • Faramac, SolVita, SurelyForth et 10 autres aiment ceci

#10
Lukas Trevelyan

Lukas Trevelyan
  • Members
  • 2 238 messages

Oh for Christ's sake...

 

One game giving females 2 extra option isn't "inequality" to straight males not even 20 games catering to non straight guys would be if anything games favoring others over straights makes things more equal given how overwhelmingly the industry favors us alone.

 

And that's the reason why people mock/lack sympathy for the whiners because they are essentially complaining about the one fish in the whole ocean that doesn't favor them.

I'm not sure I understand the relevence of what he's saying to this comment. He's just talking about how when people preach for equality, they want their faction to be favored instead of all factions to be favored equally and he is right.


  • pdusen aime ceci

#11
SardaukarElite

SardaukarElite
  • Members
  • 3 764 messages

Equality for everyone is a nice ideal but it isn't something you can easily act on. Group X having a problem with trend Y is a problem, and fixing it will probably bring you closer to having equality for everyone. Equality in romance doesn't mean anything, every player character having 2+ romance options for each gender is a rule that addresses problems with previous games. 

 

Angry people say angry things, and though unfortunate pointing out how unjust they are doesn't achieve anything, listening to them might.



#12
veeia

veeia
  • Members
  • 4 986 messages

I think "reveling" in the tears of straight male players is pretty tone deaf when gay male players & lesbians are upset and trying to talk about their issues. But I really don't have a problem with straight male players having less options or whatever, because inequality in one video game is not overall inequality so....a straight dude having less options is an anomaly, a blip.... a lesbian having less options is a systemic problem. When you look at it that way, you realize it's not a "****** for tat" situation, so much as people wanting, for once, to enjoy the experience of a narrative that doesn't shove them to the side...and not really having a lot of patience for the complaints of someone who is always at the center about how they have to share the center. I feel bad for everyone who is disappointed, but it's not a representation issue and shouldn't be talked about on the same level. And tbh, interesting how people who wouldn't lift a finger to advocate for women/lgbtq/poc in gaming culture are now insisting that we must stand up for them or all the past discussions about representation were "selfish". Not only does it show a lack of understanding of the systemic inequalities, but...it's pretty self centered. 

 

..this response is a bit snippier than I usually do, but I am just. Tired of this conversation. ;) November can't get here fast enough! 


  • SurelyForth, Bugsie, pdusen et 6 autres aiment ceci

#13
Guest_TrillClinton_*

Guest_TrillClinton_*
  • Guests

I believe the argument used towards females demanding more options when Origins and 2 was released was " I don't want bioware to make people romance options for the sake of doing it."

 

I guess that argument doesn't hold any water because it is in the other direction? Play another race or gender, this will even encourage replay-ability.


  • SolVita, SurelyForth et Hydwn aiment ceci

#14
Geth Supremacy

Geth Supremacy
  • Members
  • 3 668 messages

People are just too babied and sensitive......over EVERYTHING.  Its disgusting.


  • Senya aime ceci

#15
Revelat0

Revelat0
  • Members
  • 259 messages

I believe the argument used towards females demanding more options when Origins and 2 was released was " I don't want bioware to make people romance options for the sake of doing it."

 

I guess that argument doesn't hold any water because it is in the other direction? Play another race or gender, this will even encourage replay-ability.

Pretty much, if you are gonna do romance for the sake of doing it, please, don't do it... If it has some bearing on the story which is what Bioware's games excel at, then please, do it.



#16
HighLight43

HighLight43
  • Members
  • 13 messages
When you write your characters, you shouldn't pay any attention to how many straight, gay or bisexual characters you have. Even if you notice when you're done that all your romanceable characters happen to share the same gender and sexual orientation, that's not a problem. Each character has been created organically instead of just aiming to satisfy a quota, and will likely be better for it.

If anything you sould avoid a perfectly even spread. It makes people suspect you were just trying to appease everyone instead of trying to write cool characters and a good story.
  • Senya, Rowan et Revelat0 aiment ceci

#17
coldflame

coldflame
  • Members
  • 2 195 messages

I'm not sure I understand the relevence of what he's saying to this comment. He's just talking about how when people preach for equality, they want their faction to be favored instead of all factions to be favored equally and he is right.

I think my signature can give the answer to your question... :rolleyes:



#18
Zered

Zered
  • Members
  • 991 messages

I kind of like Bioware romance arcs, I really do. But each time I see how the forums shitstorms over them I want Bioware to shut down romances and a do crpg with none for a change :devil:


  • BadgerladDK et Revelat0 aiment ceci

#19
merak43

merak43
  • Members
  • 184 messages

why not play the game and the romance option simply because you interesed in the story?

 

the last thing i Think BW does is Think if they are being "equal". i Think they say that this char is like this, would he be straight or gay or bi?  and then make it so..

 

as i straight White male i will try all the diffrent romaces as it is only a game and i am want to see all the story bioware have given. it is not like i am going to be "in love" with the char in real Life..


  • Kantr aime ceci

#20
Joseph Warrick

Joseph Warrick
  • Members
  • 1 290 messages

*reads first line* it looks like a spiderman thread.


  • Muspade aime ceci

#21
Revelat0

Revelat0
  • Members
  • 259 messages

I kind of like Biware romance arcs, I really do. But each time I see how the forums shitstorms over them I want Bioware to shut down romances and a do crpg with none for a change :devil:

Obviously there is an underwhelming presence of narcissistic romance, if you know what I mean heheh  :devil:  Also, I wonder what sexuality our doppelganger is... :alien:



#22
Bayonet Hipshot

Bayonet Hipshot
  • Members
  • 6 768 messages

Ah, OP, you are but one step from realizing the truth.

 

The truth is that the whole equalist and egalitarian thing that many people on BSN talk about is just empty talk using Mental Gymnastics and Hamster Rationalization.

 

Empty cans making noise.

 

People spewing verbal diarrhea.

 

People trying to outdo one another to win the gold medal for Oppression Olympics. 

 

Many of them are not interested in true equality or egalitarian, they are only interested in it when it suits them. As long as they get what they want and someone else gets shafted, its okay, its shaming tactics galore, its straight male tears, check your privilege, its whiners, etc. 

 

I hate to break the news, but almost every group have been oppressed in the past, either by their own group members or people from another group. Be it straight or not, be it men or women, be it Black or White or Asian or Natives, be it one religious group or another religious group. 

 

Also terms like White doesn't really mean anything. White can be Eastern Europeans or Jews who got screwed by Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. They can mean the Irish who got enslaved. 

 

What you see in BSN is the principle of "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" and "tribalism" taken to the extreme. Most people think in binaries, in TL;DR, in simplistic terms. Its always an us vs them, its about vengeance, its about social justice as opposed to "its a little bit more complicated than that", understanding, real equality. For most people, they cannot think beyond simple terms, hence, the need to erect a strawman that can be shafted or throw sideways in pursuit of "equality". 

 

In this case, the strawman is the white male. 

 

For those of you who don't know, I am a straight Indian man from Southeast Asia. Seeing you Westerners bicker about this is simultaneously sad and hilarious. 


  • Zered, pdusen, Senya et 5 autres aiment ceci

#23
Hanako Ikezawa

Hanako Ikezawa
  • Members
  • 29 692 messages

..this response is a bit snippier than I usually do, but I am just. Tired of this conversation. ;) November can't get here fast enough! 

Aw, you think that this kind of thing will go away in November. :P


  • veeia aime ceci

#24
veeia

veeia
  • Members
  • 4 986 messages

Aw, you think that this kind of thing will go away in November. :P

 

lmao, no!  I'll just be too busy playing the game to be on here reading these threads.  :lol:


  • Ulathar, Azaron Nightblade et Yanagi_Uxinta aiment ceci

#25
keyip

keyip
  • Members
  • 617 messages

I remember when Bioware used to be about RPGs...

 

As a straight, white male I really don't care about this issue and I wish it wouldn't dominate the forums so much. It could drown out other issues with the game.


  • Jsixgun, Zered, Senya et 2 autres aiment ceci