122 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJiveDJ]

Why is it the job of the consumer to find these things out?  It's a failure of the marketing team if there is absolutely nothing conveying this basic information about the game.  

 

Especially because many games where you can customize your character do not allow you to change your gender.  So yes, if it does not clearly demonstrate that playing a female character is an option, it's easy to assume that it is not an option.  

 

Allow me to clarify; if we are talking about someone totally new to the franchise, or gaming in general, I agree with you. However, the OP made it clear that she had played DAO many times; it's not that much of a stretch to expect a Google search when considering the sequel (at the very least). I'm not objecting to the overall idea (more clear and inclusive advertising); I was just commenting on the OP's somewhat strange research behaviour, in my opinion, regarding a franchise in which she claims to have invested a significant amount of time.

[Shinobu]

 

I'm not saying people should play as many games as possible, but as a general thought I would imagine people would like to look for a game that is good vs. looking for their gender.

 

As for the over 30 comment you both question. What I mean is at 30 or older the same things that mean so much to you when you are younger don't mean as much to an adult. I rank what gender the main character is in a piece of entertainment, movies/books/video games/whatever, mattering so much you will not touch the product if you don't see the correct gender for you up there with the things an adult shouldn't care about. Not because people can't have preferences but because with a certain amount of life experience most people discover that venturing out of their comfort zones can often lead them to new things they like.  And that having such rigid constraints on what they will expose themselves to often lead to hassles when they are inflexible. So my comment about being over 30 is about a person already having learned those lessons.

 

Perhaps it's my assumption that others play RPG's like I do, for the story, not to imagine themselves as the protagonist, which is leading to the fault.  I fully understand what RPG stands for and what it is for someone to role play, at the same time I value story above all else when it comes to an RPG and as such I don't care if the protagonist is an avatar of myself or not.  Though clearly others feel differently.

 

You assume I buy games based on gender options alone, which is not the case. I DON'T buy games based on their LACK of gender options, which is not the same thing. I will look for a game that is good first, then decide to buy it depending on my interest, which includes the ability to play as a woman. I don't buy games based solely on their having the option to play as a female. For example, I'm not interested in Tomb Raider, which has a female protagonist.

 

At older than 30, being able to play as a nonsexualized female protagonist is still important to me because it is so incredibly rare. I will support a game like that by buying it, buying copies for my friends and buying ancillary products like hoodies, tie in books and posters. I don't spend a lot of time and money on new games, and I don't see the point in wasting either on games that don't appeal to me. I'd rather play Mass Effect for the sixth time and spend my money on DLC than use the same money to buy The Witcher, a critically acclaimed game that doesn't interest me in the slightest.

 

You rank the things I care about as something adults shouldn't care about? You understand that comes off badly, right?  Broadening my horizons has some merit, but you forget that most protagonists in action/adventure movies, books, and games  are already male. I have experienced living vicariously through male protagonists in various forms of media for my whole life. Now that I have a choice to NOT do that, why shouldn't I exercise it?

[Nayawk]

As I have gotten older I find myself less willing to ignore the lack of gender choice is games. I'm over 40, my entire childhood to now has been spent playing games, and I have played more male characters than I care to count.

 

But as my time becomes more limited, my focus becomes tighter, and if one game is going to let me play as a female vs one that won't then all other things being equal then yes I will take the female option. 

 

Marketing if they are smart would add those extra four or five words and one more screen shot to their media kit. It seems insane not to if you have a game that offers the feature to not at least mention it on the box/release media given the effort needed vs potential reward, I mean you have already done the actual hard part (making the game).

[chance52]

You assume I buy games based on gender options alone, which is not the case. I DON'T buy games based on their LACK of gender options, which is not the same thing. I will look for a game that is good first, then decide to buy it depending on my interest, which includes the ability to play as a woman. I don't buy games based solely on their having the option to play as a female. For example, I'm not interested in Tomb Raider, which has a female protagonist.

 

At older than 30, being able to play as a nonsexualized female protagonist is still important to me because it is so incredibly rare. I will support a game like that by buying it, buying copies for my friends and buying ancillary products like hoodies, tie in books and posters. I don't spend a lot of time and money on new games, and I don't see the point in wasting either on games that don't appeal to me. I'd rather play Mass Effect for the sixth time and spend my money on DLC than use the same money to buy The Witcher, a critically acclaimed game that doesn't interest me in the slightest.

 

You rank the things I care about as something adults shouldn't care about? You understand that comes off badly, right?  Broadening my horizons has some merit, but you forget that most protagonists in movies, books, and games  are already male. I have experienced living vicariously through male protagonists in various forms of media for my whole life. Now that I have a choice to NOT do that, why shouldn't I exercise it?

 

You and I were discussing the comments made by the original poster, who said she wouldn't touch a game based on the fact that she thought she had to play as a man. No where did I suggest you buy games on gender alone.

 

And I'm saying as an adult some things just shouldn't matter because with experience one gains a bit of perspective. I made myself very clear that I think the men that are uncomfortable playing women should get over that as well if the story is worth experiencing.  So if suggesting that adults shouldn't be avoiding media based on the gender of the characters comes off as bad, I have a bad mentality.

 

I never suggested people shouldn't desire more diversity in protagonists nor did I ever say wanting to experience something that you consider rare, whatever that may be, is a bad thing. My comments were directed specifically at the notion that an adult (the original poster) was actively avoiding a story that she thought was 'the best thing since sliced bread' because it had a man and not a woman in the reviews and trailers she watched. A story she became enamored with already, she said she wouldn't buy when she thought she had to continue with a male character only later when she realized she was mistaken did she go and buy the next chapter in the story. 

 

You went on to put a whole lot of words in my mouth to suit your counterargument against my post however as it turns out you and I do the same thing.  You support products you consider rare because you'd like to see more of the like in the world while that is exactly what I do with the Witcher series.  I love CDPR's stance on DLC and DRM and treating the customer as more than just an ATM.  So many companies nickle and dime you for everything and have increasingly more troublesome DRM that treats paying customers like criminals while pirates get a much smoother working game and haven't paid a dime (look to the Settlers 7 for example of DRM so invasive that prevented people from playing the game they paid for) I see CDPR's business practice as rare and as such I go out of my way to support them because I'd like them to be successful and for other companies to see you don't have to treat your customers poorly to earn a profit. You would like there to be more female protagonists in the world and you do the same thing, great.  That was never anything I posted against.

[Mihura]

As I have gotten older I find myself less willing to ignore the lack of gender choice is games. I'm over 40, my entire childhood to now has been spent playing games, and I have played more male characters than I care to count.

 

But as my time becomes more limited, my focus becomes tighter, and if one game is going to let me play as a female vs one that won't then all other things being equal then yes I will take the female option. 

 

Marketing if they are smart would add those extra four or five words and one more screen shot to their media kit. It seems insane not to if you have a game that offers the feature to not at least mention it on the box/release media given the effort needed vs potential reward, I mean you have already done the actual hard part (making the game).

 

I have no problem playing male characters but without time for games and getting older, I am starting to be more selective too. It actually the opposite from my younger days. That is why marketing is important and passing the right message.

Bioware is doing better now days. 

[Icefalcon]

I can totally see where AutumnWitch is coming from about the marketing. If you look at say Assassins Creed and you read you will be Ezio and you look at DA2 and you see you will be Hawke it's very likely you can assume the character you see on the box is what you will get.

 

People want to like their character and if they don't it will lessen their interest in the game a lot. You lose investment you lose motivation to play and you will move on and play something else.  

The best example I can give is the Witcher, there are several things about the Witcher I dislike but for me the real deal breaker is I couldn't have cared less about the main character, I had no interest in his success and I stopped playing part way through. Had I been able to design my own Witcher I would certainly have felt more investment and this is where Bioware does very well

[Shinobu]

You and I were discussing the comments made by the original poster, who said she wouldn't touch a game based on the fact that she thought she had to play as a man. No where did I suggest you buy games on gender alone.

 

You said "I would imagine people would like to look for a game that is good vs. looking for their gender" which, placed under my comment, led me to believe you assumed we did not look for good games, only the ability to play as our own sex. Since we agree that isn't the case we can drop it.

 

 

And I'm saying as an adult some things just shouldn't matter because with experience one gains a bit of perspective. I made myself very clear that I think the men that are uncomfortable playing women should get over that as well if the story is worth experiencing.  So if suggesting that adults shouldn't be avoiding media based on the gender of the characters comes off as bad, I have a bad mentality.

 

It's nice that you feel this way about men and women equally, but to say "as an adult some things shouldn't matter" is dismissive of those adults (men and women) to whom it does matter. I have tried to explain why it does matter to me. If that doesn't convince you, then you're free to have your own opinion.

 

I never suggested people shouldn't desire more diversity in protagonists nor did I ever say wanting to experience something that you consider rare, whatever that may be, is a bad thing.

 

I agree, nor did I accuse you of it. I merely pointed out that when you say "I rank what gender the main character is... mattering so much you will not touch the product...up there with the things an adult shouldn't care about," people who DO care would more than likely find this condescending and react badly.

 

 

My comments were directed specifically at the notion that an adult (the original poster) was actively avoiding a story that she thought was 'the best thing since sliced bread' because it had a man and not a woman in the reviews and trailers she watched. A story she became enamored with already, she said she wouldn't buy when she thought she had to continue with a male character only later when she realized she was mistaken did she go and buy the next chapter in the story.

 

Ok, as an adult I have tried to explain why I would do something similar to what the OP did. Whether you agree with our avoidance of good games because of lack of sex customization is actually beside the point.

 

Boiling down this thread (not just your comments):

OP: Hey, Bioware! You have a feature in your games I really want! If only you had made it obvious it was in your other game I would have gotten it much sooner! You should work on communicating that better.

 

BSN: You should have looked harder if you really loved games. Also, this feature you want is unimportant and not worth informing anyone about. I believe people don't care about it and as an adult you shouldn't care either. Finally, your story is suspect and you smell. (Ok, I might have added that last bit.)

 

Can't we agree that if there is a feature that people like in a game, that will cause them to buy it (for whatever reason) then Bioware should communicate that in the interests of having more paying customers?

 

You went on to put a whole lot of words in my mouth to suit your counterargument against my post however as it turns out you and I do the same thing.  You support products you consider rare because you'd like to see more of the like in the world while that is exactly what I do with the Witcher series.  I love CDPR's stance on DLC and DRM and treating the customer as more than just an ATM.  So many companies nickle and dime you for everything and have increasingly more troublesome DRM that treats paying customers like criminals while pirates get a much smoother working game and haven't paid a dime (look to the Settlers 7 for example of DRM so invasive that prevented people from playing the game they paid for) I see CDPR's business practice as rare and as such I go out of my way to support them because I'd like them to be successful and for other companies to see you don't have to treat your customers poorly to earn a profit. You would like there to be more female protagonists in the world and you do the same thing, great.  That was never anything I posted against.

 

I don't believe I ever put words into your mouth. If I mistook your intent then hopefully that has been cleared up. I support your voting with your wallet -- it's the only way we consumers will get what we want, but I'm not sure how that's relevant to the topic. I don't believe I ever accused you of posting against more female protagonists, only of unintentionally coming off as condescending.

 

In any case, thank you for being civil.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I will never understand why people find it so difficult to play as a member of the opposite gender, or as an Orc or Troll. I just chalk it up to a lack of imagination.

 

I sometimes fantasize about what life would be like to live as a giraffe.

[Kantr]

This thread is irrelevant though, the inquisitor on the cover is of the gender you want them to be. While the gameplay demo and E3 showed off female inquisitors. So it's clear they understand.

 

Perhaps it should be made clear in the game description that it is customisable.

[Knight_47K]

I'm not a British spy yet I liked several 007 movies, not because I imagine myself as a spy but because I liked the movies.

 

That's what you are saying mister, but you could be lying.

 

I am on to you.

[CuriousArtemis]

What does being over 30 have to do with not caring about a protagonist's sex?  Are you implying that mature gamers shouldn't have preferences?

 

Actually now that I am over 30 I only purchase games I am really, REALLY interested in playing because I don't have a lot of time to play. 

 

At this age you also just know what you want. You see it, you want it, you buy it. You don't buy stuff you don't want. (But you do buy stuff you don't need all the time.. ahh online impulse buying, my old nemesis.)

[CuriousArtemis]

Since the best selling games have a set character and, most importantly, the vast majority of ME players used the default shepard I'm inclined to believe that choosing gender is not a feature people care for.

 

If you don't market to them, they won't buy your product. Example:

 

Disney slowly realized it was losing sales by marketing solely to girls. Princess and the Frog was considered a financial failure. A decision was made to start trying to appeal to boys as well, so the film Rapunzel was re-titled Tangled and the character Flynn Rider was added. Tangled was a massive financial success. Rinse and repeat with Frozen. 

 

If anyone knows how to make money, it's Disney. You appeal to only one part of the populace, you're just being blind. Expand your appeal to larger groups, and step 3, profit.

[Knight_47K]

Also, marketing just to tell people that they can play other sexual orientation needs to take a back burner compared to actual marketing. I have so many gamer friends who have no idea that there is a game developer called Bioware that makes awesomeness in form of video games.

 

You cant even imagine how many people I must have pursuaded to play DAO and ME. RPG genre needs to come out of its shell. Most gamers treat RPG genre like movie goers treat documentaries / art films. RPG has evolved for good or better and people need to see that it brings a lot to the table.

 

A normal hack slash game is playable once. Once you finish it there is hardly any reason to go back. Whereas Bioware games or other RPGs are very much worth the money. You can play as anything, craft your own backstory, give your character your own flavor, change gameplay according to your choice. But because the most of the marketing is centered towards the RPG crowd, a lot of people that would actually enjoy this game do not buy it.

[CuriousArtemis]

Also, marketing just to tell people that they can play other sexual orientation needs to take a back burner compared to actual marketing. 

 

Funny, as that is the #1 thing I look for when I'm considering purchasing a game

[Shinobu]

This thread is irrelevant though, the inquisitor on the cover is of the gender you want them to be. While the gameplay demo and E3 showed off female inquisitors. So it's clear they understand.

 

Perhaps it should be made clear in the game description that it is customisable.

 

Yes. The game description from Amazon is still too vague IMO.

 

"Completely control the appearance and abilities of your Inquisitor, party of followers, outposts, and strongholds."

 

To me this is still not specific enough. It implies that the level of control over the appearance of the Inquisitor is the same as that for the party of followers. Should I assume from this I can make Cassandra a man? No? Then why would a DA noob assume he could choose to play as a female?

[Shinobu]

Also, marketing just to tell people that they can play other sexual orientation needs to take a back burner compared to actual marketing.

 

I think you mean sex rather than sexual orientation, though it would be nice to have both bits of info available.

 

I don't think the OP was asking for a marketing campaign, just a simple sentence on the box that lets people know they can choose the sex of the protagonist. It's still not on the description of DAI on Amazon and for the life of me I can't understand why. It could be as understated as "Become the Inquisitor as he or she does blah blah blah." We don't need giant red letters on the cover stating "you can customize your Inquisitor with a penis or vagina!"

[Icefalcon]

I will never understand why people find it so difficult to play as a member of the opposite gender, or as an Orc or Troll. I just chalk it up to a lack of imagination.

 

I sometimes fantasize about what life would be like to live as a giraffe.

No, not difficult, uninteresting.  People don't want to play a character or character type that is uninteresting to them. It has nothing to do with imagination and everything to do with investment in what you are doing.

[Nefla]

I agree, if it hadn't been for my cousin giving me DA:O I never would have bought it or played it based on the advertising. Same with Mass Effect if I hadn't bought every BioWare game out of goodwill from DA:O and wanting more of the same I wouldn't have picked it up. The advertising portrayed the game as a generic shooter with a generic fixed male protagonist. HOWEVER I think they've done waaaaay better this time! Although there was only one female inquisitor trailer vs 4 (or more?) male ones there was an equal number of female and male gameplay demos and the female inquisitor is the default for many of the race/class combos on the official website.

[Neon Rising Winter]

I will never understand why people find it so difficult to play as a member of the opposite gender, or as an Orc or Troll. I just chalk it up to a lack of imagination.
 
I sometimes fantasize about what life would be like to live as a giraffe.

My problem has always been more of a difficulty playing characters of the same gender. That difficulty primarily arising from the option not being available in most games. While I would agree this shows a lack of imagination, it's not on the part of the consumer.

[Ceoldoren]

I agree, if it hadn't been for my cousin giving me DA:O I never would have bought it or played it based on the advertising. Same with Mass Effect if I hadn't bought every BioWare game out of goodwill from DA:O and wanting more of the same I wouldn't have picked it up. The advertising portrayed the game as a generic shooter with a generic fixed male protagonist. HOWEVER I think they've done waaaaay better this time! Although there was only one female inquisitor trailer vs 4 (or more?) male ones there was an equal number of female and male gameplay demos and the female inquisitor is the default for many of the race/class combos on the official website.

Other than trailers, it's been almost all female inquisitor for gameplay and a lot of the screenshots as well. Which is a nice change of pace and I don't really mind it. Though my preferred marketing would be a 50/50 split between genders. 

[Puppy Love]

The main issue is we see the female usually in niche marketing.  Like in gameplay demos, on the website, ect.

 

Where we do not see anything involving the female is on the box, or in most trailers that reach the audience which is not already super invested in the game.

 

I'm willing to bet most people who buy games will never see a gameplay demo, so it does not matter if ALL the game play demos were female in the end to advertising.  You put it on the box, and you make the trailers more clear on what awesome things we have available to us in game.  Or ultimately most of the market does not have a clue.  Most people who buy games aren't like us.  They don't go to cons, they don't look up games on the internet, they don't visit game websites.  They see commercials and they look at the box to see what it's all about and what features the game has.

 

I can tell you for a fact while looking over random games at game stores to see if I wanted to buy any the lack of clarity on this issue has both resulted in me not buying games, and returning them because it turned out it forced me to play a guy and was not interesting enough for me to get over that.

 

Like the Witcher series, I tried playing it, hated Geralt, end of game.

[Ceoldoren]

The main issue is we see the female usually in niche marketing.  Like in gameplay demos, on the website, ect.

 

Where we do not see anything involving the female is on the box, or in most trailers that reach the audience which is not already super invested in the game.

 

I'm willing to bet most people who buy games will never see a gameplay demo, so it does not matter if ALL the game play demos were female in the end to advertising.  You put it on the box, and you make the trailers more clear on what awesome things we have available to us in game.  Or ultimately most of the market does not have a clue.  Most people who buy games aren't like us.  They don't go to cons, they don't look up games on the internet, they don't visit game websites.  They see commercials and they look at the box to see what it's all about and what features the game has.

 

I can tell you for a fact while looking over random games at game stores to see if I wanted to buy any the lack of clarity on this issue has both resulted in me not buying games, and returning them because it turned out it forced me to play a guy and was not interesting enough for me to get over that.

 

Like the Witcher series, I tried playing it, hated Geralt, end of game.

I don't even think the issue is that Geralt is a dude, even as a women she would still be the most bland character ever.

 

And I'm not disagreeing with you, there's no reason the female inquisitor shouldn't be on the box, or have alternate box art. And get more than one trailer, but some progress is being made, and with any luck that trend will continue.

[syllogi]

I got a copy of The Witcher 1 free with a video card, and I never could get past the prologue, not so much because I was playing a guy, but the combat was SO tedious, I couldn't imagine wanting to play any longer.

 

But besides that, I am a HUGE fan of playing female characters, and while yeah, it's because I am a woman, it's also because female heroes are awesome and inspiring and just *fun* to me.  Call it a lack of imagination if you like, but I was able to make plenty of Shepards and Wardens and Hawkes who are interesting and diverse with no problem.  Maybe it's because I can imagine women being just as diverse and interesting as the many, many male video games heroes out there I'm usually forced to play.

 

I enjoy games with male characters when they're well written set protagonists, but if it's a role playing game, and I have a choice with a character creator, I'm definitely going to choose to play a woman.  I've been seeking out female role models in fiction since I was a kid, and while I've found some in books, movies, and tv, I still want to see more in video games.

[Ceoldoren]

I got a copy of The Witcher 1 free with a video card, and I never could get past the prologue, not so much because I was playing a guy, but the combat was SO tedious, I couldn't imagine wanting to play any longer.

 

But besides that, I am a HUGE fan of playing female characters, and while yeah, it's because I am a woman, it's also because female heroes are awesome and inspiring and just *fun* to me.  Call it a lack of imagination if you like, but I was able to make plenty of Shepards and Wardens and Hawkes who are interesting and diverse with no problem.  Maybe it's because I can imagine women being just as diverse and interesting as the many, many male video games heroes out there I'm usually forced to play.

 

I enjoy games with male characters when they're well written set protagonists, but if it's a role playing game, and I have a choice with a character creator, I'm definitely going to choose to play a woman.  I've been seeking out female role models in fiction since I was a kid, and while I've found some in books, movies, and tv, I still want to see more in video games.

I can understand that, some people just can't get into playing the opposite gender. Though trust me, Geralt is just a poor character in general. Literally zero personality and his VA doesn't help matter with the flat delivery. Sorry, don't mean to rant ! But yes, it's understandable.

[Nefla]

Other than trailers, it's been almost all female inquisitor for gameplay and a lot of the screenshots as well. Which is a nice change of pace and I don't really mind it. Though my preferred marketing would be a 50/50 split between genders. 

Other than trailers which had way less of the female inquisitors, it HAS been 50-50 with the gameplay. The very first gameplay demo was a human male warrior in Crestwood, the E3 demo was a Qunari female, the third was a Dwarf male, then human female, the multiplayer demo had both genders. Half is not "almost all."