2121 réponses à ce sujet

[Icy Magebane]

It wasn't "their religion" it was a religion that their ancestors may have practiced. Same with "their culture." 

This is a good point... after 700 years I think it's fair to say that the city elves have come to a decision about what religion and culture they wish to follow.  Dragon Age has two distinct elven cultures that are further divided by local variations (per clan, per city, per nation, etc).  What the city elves are doing is no less valid or less "elven" than the Dalish practices.  If they wanted to follow the old ways to the letter, they would have done so at some point in the last few centuries...  Instead, they hold on to what they choose to and adopt local cultural and religious practices from the humans as it suits them.  I don't see a problem here.

[A Clever Name]

@ A Clever Name - "Race" is a mindset now?  That's news to me.  But they did revoke Pluto's status as a planet, so I guess anything's possible.

Perhaps I'm not defining it quite as well as I had hoped - I suppose race is a perception as well as a mindset would be a better way of saying it.  It's not just how you think of yourself, but how others might as well.  Or at least, that's how I've been taught to use it.  It makes sense in the context of anthropological studies and is very helpful in my own field.  In basic words it's just a way that people draw distinctions between groups that are ethnically similar but culturally different - and in some circumstances people use it as a means of social stratification.

 

If this sounds confusing to you it's because it is.  

[TheEternalStudent]

Doesn't really matter at all to what I said. My ancestors talked to trees and ate lion testicles. That isn't my culture. That isn't my religion. The person in question brought up both, so I responded to both.  

You (or at least most people) do celebrate the winter solstice, and in Old World countries engage in many small actions that come from tradition.

City Elves don't have this, that's all I'm saying.

[Icy Magebane]

Perhaps I'm not defining it quite as well as I had hoped - I suppose race is a perception as well as a mindset would be a better way of saying it.  It's not just how you think of yourself, but how others might as well.  Or at least, that's how I've been taught to use it.  It makes sense in the context of anthropological studies and is very helpful in my own field.  In basic words it's just a way that people draw distinctions between groups that are ethnically similar but culturally different - and in some circumstances people use it as a means of social stratification.

 

If this sounds confusing to you it's because it is.  

No, I'm sure it's all perfectly logical and there's a lot of science to back it up, but I'm a layman, not an anthropologist.  Race doesn't mean that to me, nor is there any reason for me to think in those terms.  In terms of Dragon Age, "race" specifically refers to elves, humans, dwarves, and qunari.  There is no separation between Dalish and City Elf, since they are physically the same type of creature and are separated only by culture (which is even further divided by region).  My original point was that there is obviously a racial (or ethnic if you prefer) difference between a poor human and a city elf, but no such difference exists between Dalish and city elves... 

 

There was also a comparison between the TES Mer... I'm just going to call them races, you know what I mean... races, and DA elves, but in that case there is an obvious divergence between the three types that does not exist between Dalish and City Elves... there's really nothing at all that's different about the two groups of DA elves besides culture, so the claim that one is "less elven" than the other doesn't have much of a foundation...

[pengwin21]

As for DA, the city elves are trying but they are not going anywhere to be honest. The most successful city elves are the servants of the richest or simply they work for people who don't look down on the elves. There really isn't enough fundamental difference to call city elves another race. I mean sure they are a different race but for the most part they have assimilated. We don't have other races on reality to make examples of but most people living in foreign country start to lose their own culture with each passing generation until they fully assimilate into the said country's culture. Ultimately they are human so its not a problem but that's not the case for elves. They are becoming short humans.

 

I don't really see the Dalish as going anywhere either. They isolate themselves, possibly attacking travelers who come too close (see start of Dalish Elf origin).. Sometimes they mess around with demons and blood magic to try and reclaim their lost lore, which often gets an entire clan killed.

 

Dalish often bemoan the fall of Arlathan and the Dales, but I have not seen any Dalish with a real plan to actually create a new homeland. The Dalish are scattered all over Thedas, with neither the numbers nor the military strength to hold off nations like Orlais if the clans were to gather. If the Dalish actually want to create a new homeland, they should probably start by making some alliances. 

[Br3admax]

You (or at least most people) do celebrate the winter solstice, and in Old World countries engage in many small actions that come from tradition.

City Elves don't have this, that's all I'm saying.

Source? Also that's a part of my culture as well as my ancestors. Not just my ancestors. 

[TheEternalStudent]

Source? Also that's a part of my culture as well as my ancestors. Not just my ancestors. 

Um... I need to site Christmas?
Or Guy Fawkes Day?
Lesser known ones (and forgive me, I'm more familiar with UK examples than others)Beating the bounds & Burning of the Clavie.
And it's part of your culture because it was passed down. The Chantry didn't let the City elves do so, they forced them to cut themselves almost entirely from all elves that had been before (Shem, and presumably other small things survived).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Just because they share similarities in culture with humans doesn't make City Elves less elven, especially not to the point of "there really isn't enough fundamental differences to call city elves another race" as you said. They have an elven culture that while has adapted to being under humans is still an elven culture. It will always be an elven culture as long as they are elves.

 

Ferelden was under the rule of Orlais for decades, so does that mean modern Ferelden is less culturally Ferelden than it was a century ago before the occupation? The answer is no. The culture adapted, but it is still the same culture and always will be as long as the people identify it as such. 

 

It probably would be if it had been for centuries like the City Elves.

[Br3admax]

Um... I need to site Christmas?
Or Guy Fawkes Day?
Lesser known ones (and forgive me, I'm more familiar with UK examples than others)Beating the bounds & Burning of the Clavie.

Cite a source where is says elves don't have these thing. Obviously I'm not talking about random holidays in December. 

 

 

And it's part of your culture because it was passed down. The Chantry didn't let the City elves do so, they forced them to cut themselves almost entirely from all elves that had been before (Shem, and presumably other small things survived).

Also, I'd like a source for this. You're just making things up at this point. 

[A Clever Name]

No, I'm sure it's all perfectly logical and there's a lot of science to back it up, but I'm a layman, not an anthropologist.  Race doesn't mean that to me, nor is there any reason for me to think in those terms.  In terms of Dragon Age, "race" specifically refers to elves, humans, dwarves, and qunari.  There is no separation between Dalish and City Elf, since they are physically the same type of creature and are separated only by culture (which is even further divided by region).  My original point was that there is obviously a racial (or ethnic if you prefer) difference between a poor human and a city elf, but no such difference exists between Dalish and city elves... 

 

There was also a comparison between the TES Mer... I'm just going to call them races, you know what I mean... races, and DA elves, but in that case there is an obvious divergence between the three types that does not exist between Dalish and City Elves... there's really nothing at all that's different about the two groups of DA elves besides culture, so the claim that one is "less elven" than the other doesn't have much of a foundation...

I'm not asking you to change how you use your language - that wasn't my intention, although I can understand why it may have come across that way.  For my own purposes it works quite well, but if how you utilize the word works in your own life, then of course you should feel free to continue using it as you see fit.

 

As for that argument, I use "species" because humans and elves are very clearly not of the same ancestral descent.  If you could prove that at some point down the evolutionary chain elves and humans were once one, I might begin using a different term.  As far as I am aware, in the lore, it seems that humans evolved separately from elves, just as qunari did.  Before you can even begin to apply race to something you have to apply ethnicity, and before ethnicity you have to apply species.  That's why I use the definitions I do, but I understand that not everyone does.  Ethnically I claim that the city and Dalish elves are the same, as they all have common ancestral roots in the Dales and the Elvhenan slaves beforehand - there's no arguing that - and they have not had the time to grow ethnically diverse in the way humans have.  Humans can be Rivaini, Ferelden, Antivan...those all have very distinct appearances, although a claim that they are ethnically different would of course have to be made through genetics, which I doubt BioWare would ever provide.  Racially though you can certainly argue they are different - an Antivan might look at an Orlesian and say "human" if the label was accurate, but they would not say "Antivan," because they do not consider someone who does not share that culture (or perhaps even a distinctive appearance) to be Antivan.  So applying this to city elves and the Dalish, they might be racially different on the basis of something as simple as culture.  I might define them this way, but I don't think you're wrong for disagreeing - I use race to distinguish between the two because of the growing divide between their shared cultures, and because ethnicity does not seem the best label.

 

Like I said when I brought them up, the Dunmer and the Altmer actually share genetic ancestors in the Aldmer.  Dunmer were once called Chimer, but left Summerset Isle for present-day Morrowind due to irreconcilable differences in culture (chief among them being religion).  Appearance-wise (and perhaps genetically-wise as well), Chimer did not change until the Battle of Red Mountain in 1E 700, after which they became the Dunmer due to Azura's curse.  Over time, races may become ethnically distinct, but this was not the case for Dunmer (at least not at this point).  And as we cannot prove genetic changes without the developers, simply guess at them, racially distinct is more accurate than ethnically distinct.  I'd like to expound upon the Bosmer, but sadly, I know very little about their origins.  :/

 

And course, the city elves are no less elven than the Dalish!  If the city elves were less elven they wouldn't be called elves, now would they?

[animedreamer]

Really, what's the difference between a city elf and a poor human other than slender bodies and pointy ears?

heh heh..

[TheEternalStudent]

Cite a source where is says elves don't have these thing. Obviously I'm not talking about random holidays in December. 

Also, I'd like a source for this. You're just making things up at this point. 

I can't find a Codex entry that lists traditions the elves don't follow, I can compare City Elves' and Dalish Elves' origins, quests, dialogues, and even merchandise to see the difference in culture, and extrapolate to gain insight.
Dalish traditions include

• Vallaslin
• Vir Tanadhal
• Weapon craft (both design and material)
• An entire pantheon of gods, with origin myths for the gods, elves, and even some animals

The only inkling of traditions from the City elves are

• Vhendahl (the codex for which specifically mentions how city elves are losing their traditions)
• Hahren
• Shem

Also, read about the fall of the Dales, the Chantry's 'truce' required the elves to live in the alienages, and give up their religion, while those who refused become the Dalish, those who would keep elvhen language, religion, and traditions.

[Br3admax]

 

*snip*

So far, you've shown nothing that says elves have no connection or desire to keep their old traditions, only your opinions on how they aren't just like the Dalish, who do not even know "their" culture and hardly know anything about their past to be the baseline of what it means to be elven. 

Also, read about the fall of the Dales, the Chantry's 'truce' required the elves to live in the alienages, and give up their religion, while those who refused become the Dalish, those who would keep elvhen language, religion, and traditions.

Except the Chantry didn't "force" them to give up their traditions or cultures. Humans all across Thedas told them to live in Alienages.  Those who refused to live in Alienages left to become the Dalish, mostly stuck up nobility who left the rest of the elves behind. There's nothing that says the elves "had" to convert to any one religion or another besides the fans opinions. 

[Icy Magebane]

Also, read about the fall of the Dales, the Chantry's 'truce' required the elves to live in the alienages, and give up their religion, while those who refused become the Dalish, those who would keep elvhen language, religion, and traditions.

 

City elves are not required to worship the Maker.  The only restriction the Chantry places on them is that they surrender their mages to the Circle.  Beyond that, there is no direct intervention in their lives, religion, or culture on behalf of the Chantry.  Nobody is monitoring the to make sure that they don't try to worship the Creators.

[Mistic]

I feel the need to point out that culture includes a shared history too. City Elves have a lot of things in common that sets them apart from humans: they live in alienages, have a long history of being treated as second-class citizens, being relegated to menial labour and being the target of many racial slurs. Ok, it's not the kind of culture one would feel proud of, as in "look at my beautiful and meaningful traditions", but it's something that most City Elves across Thedas share and understand, while most humans don't.

 

City elves are not required to worship the Maker.  The only restriction the Chantry places on them is that they surrender their mages to the Circle.  Beyond that, there is no direct intervention in their lives, religion, or culture on behalf of the Chantry.

 

That's not what hahren Sarethia and Sister Petrine say in the codex entries about the City Elves:

 

"We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries."

 

"When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry."

[Hanako Ikezawa]

they have evolved

 

remaining hide-bound to tradition is a recipe for extinction

Yep. We only need to look at the Dwarves to see that.

[TheEternalStudent]

So far, you've shown nothing that says elves have no connection or desire to keep their old traditions, only your opinions on how they aren't just like the Dalish, who do not even know "their" culture and hardly know anything about their past to be the baseline of what it means to be elven. 

Except the Chantry didn't "force" them to give up their traditions or cultures. Humans all across Thedas told them to live in Alienages.  Those who refused to live in Alienages left to become the Dalish. There's nothing that says the elves "had" to convert to any one religion or another besides the fans opinions. 

Chopping up the vhendahl and a codex entry saying they neglect tradition isn't enough? What would satisfy, all the City elves in Thedas standing up and singing together 'We Have No Traditions'?

The Dalish have only a small, incredibly distorted, understanding of the past. They are also the people who, after some mage scholars most likely, have the greatest connection to this past.
The Dalish keep the most traditions alive, compared to any other group in Thedas.

They and the city elves share common ancestry in the pre-falls Dales.

So the lack of tradition one finds in the City elves when compared to that of the Dalish shows a clear disparity, one that the game bears out.

And the Chantry told the elves to live in human cities, under human law, under Chantry oversight. And the Chantry does not approve of worship of any deity besides that of the Maker. The elves weren't forced to convert, merely renounce or not practice their faith.

[Lulupab]

I feel the need to point out that culture includes a shared history too. City Elves have a lot of things in common that sets them apart from humans: they live in alienages, have a long history of being treated as second-class citizens, being relegated to menial labour and being the target of many racial slurs. Ok, it's not the kind of culture one would feel proud of, as in "look at my beautiful and meaningful traditions", but it's something that most City Elves across Thedas share and understand, while most humans don't.

Ok, I admit it makes sense. Its somewhat hard to understand because elves are a whole new race and there is no analogy to make in real world. Anyway my personal opinion on the matter does not stem from Elves becoming like humans but they choosing to do it unchallenged. The life of the Dalish is a hard one as is any nomadic lifestyle. We had many nomadic tribes around Caspian sea and they all led lives similar to the Dalish. Its a hard life but you get to keep your identity, freedom and lifestyle while living near world powers such as Byzantine and Persian empires. This is acknowledged in Ferelden and Kirkwall, even if they know where the Dalish are many wont join because the life with Dalish is harder than living in alienages and most city elves are helpless and cannot fight in opposed to all Dalish clan members being fighters.

The Dalish have become hostile but humans were always hostile towards the Dalish so both sides hold the blame. We know for a fact that humans did what they did to Zathrian's children unprovoked.

[Icy Magebane]

That's not what hahren Sarethia and Sister Petrine say in the codex entries about the City Elves:

 

"We were not enslaved as we had been before, but our worship of the ancient gods was now forbidden. We were allowed to live among the humans only as second-class citizens who worshipped their Maker, forgetting once more the scraps of lore we had maintained through the centuries."

 

"When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry."

Hm... I can't really argue with that.  Fair enough... the Chantry forbid the worship of the Creators as one of the conditions for allowing the elves to remain free and alive within the borders of their nations.  It sounds pretty generous considering the alternatives and the history of aggression between the two races.  I'm not sure how strictly that is enforced now that several centuries have passed, but clearly this ban steered the city elf culture away from their old gods and to the Andrastian faith...  After so much time has passed, however, I can't really blame the city elves for not being enthusiastic about embracing gods that they know little or nothing about.

[TheEternalStudent]

Hm... I can't really argue with that.  Fair enough... the Chantry forbid the worship of the Creators as one of the conditions for allowing the elves to remain free and alive within the borders of their nations.  It sounds pretty generous considering the alternatives and the history of aggression between the two races.  I'm not sure how strictly that is enforced now that several centuries have passed, but clearly this ban steered the city elf culture away from their old gods and to the Andrastian faith...  After so much time has passed, however, I can't really blame the city elves for not being enthusiastic about embracing gods that they know little or nothing about.

There's definitely been a laxity in enforcement for elves having to live in the Alienage, there's mention of how some elves try and move to better living conditions, but are assaulted and abused and have to go to even worse slums. But I don't think the Chantry needs to enforce theology, I doubt any City elves know anything about the Dalish gods.

[Icy Magebane]

There's definitely been a laxity in enforcement for elves having to live in the Alienage, there's mention of how some elves try and move to better living conditions, but are assaulted and abused and have to go to even worse slums. But I don't think the Chantry needs to enforce theology, I doubt any City elves know anything about the Dalish gods.

Well, I am not saying that city elves aren't at the mercy of humans, because they are... it's just that I don't see a connection between human attitudes towards city elves and the Chantry.  IMO it's more of an ingrained part of human culture throughout Thedas than anything specifically tied to or endorsed by the Chantry...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, I am not saying that city elves aren't at the mercy of humans, because they are... it's just that I don't see a connection between human attitudes towards city elves and the Chantry.  IMO it's more of an ingrained part of human culture throughout Thedas than anything specifically tied to or endorsed by the Chantry...

They aren't really connected. In fact the Chantry is one of the nicest institutions to the elves, allowing them to even become Templars if skilled enough. 

[TheEternalStudent]

Well, I am not saying that city elves aren't at the mercy of humans, because they are... it's just that I don't see a connection between human attitudes towards city elves and the Chantry.  IMO it's more of an ingrained part of human culture throughout Thedas than anything specifically tied to or endorsed by the Chantry...

I don't think the Chantry goes around spouting that elves are unimportant, or, like mages, should be lower in the hierarchy. I think it's more likely that they just never mention them, which means Andrastians have no concept of elves as valuable members of society, who have helped in the past.
The Chantry probably encourages donating to these unfortunate people, which glides over societal currents and lays the blame at chance.

[Br3admax]

Chopping up the vhendahl and a codex entry saying they neglect tradition isn't enough? What would satisfy, all the City elves in Thedas standing up and singing together 'We Have No Traditions'?

The Dalish have only a small, incredibly distorted, understanding of the past. They are also the people who, after some mage scholars most likely, have the greatest connection to this past.
The Dalish keep the most traditions alive, compared to any other group in Thedas.

They and the city elves share common ancestry in the pre-falls Dales.

So the lack of tradition one finds in the City elves when compared to that of the Dalish shows a clear disparity, one that the game bears out.

And the Chantry told the elves to live in human cities, under human law, under Chantry oversight. And the Chantry does not approve of worship of any deity besides that of the Maker. The elves weren't forced to convert, merely renounce or not practice their faith.

So more of your opinions then? All you're saying is that if they aren't acting like the Dalish, they aren't following their culture, completely ignoring the fact that the Dalish have a unique culture that is different from that of Arlathan, the last true elven culture, they aren't acting elven. Which is prejudice. The city elves have their own culture that still practices elvhen traditions. They don't need to live with deer and stab themselves in the face to be elven, 

[TheEternalStudent]

So more of your opinions then? All you're saying is that if they aren't acting like the Dalish, they aren't following their culture, completely ignoring the fact that the Dalish have a unique culture that is different from that of Arlathan, the last true elven culture, they aren't acting elven. Which is prejudice. They have their own culture that still practices elvhen traditions. They don't need to live with deer and stab themselves in the face to be elven, 

The last true elven culture is Arlathan, because it grew, while the Dalish only pull from the past, or at least try to. But they are the ones who have the most elven culture. What the Dalish have is slightly more than what the Pre-fall Dalish elves had. The City elves have almost none of this, and are losing what little remains.

 

They aren't really connected. In fact the Chantry is one of the nicest institutions to the elves, allowing them to even become Templars if skilled enough. 

Nicest institution to the elves is probably the Qunari, because it doesn't treat them as elves.