2121 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The last true elven culture is Arlathan, because it grew, while the Dalish only pull from the past, or at least try to. But they are the ones who have the most elven culture. What the Dalish have is slightly more than what the Pre-fall Dalish elves had. The City elves have almost none of this, and are losing what little remains.

Again, there is no elven culture that has "the most elven culture". All elven cultures are equally elven in culture because it is the culture of elves. 

 

 

Nicest institution to the elves is probably the Qunari, because it doesn't treat them as elves.

Hence me saying "one of the nicest", not "the nicest". Though depending on how you view how the Qunari do things, them being the nicest is very debatable.

[Mistic]

Ok, I admit it makes sense. Its somewhat hard to understand because elves are a whole new race and there is no analogy to make in real world. Anyway my personal opinion on the matter does not stem from Elves becoming like humans but they choosing to do it unchallenged. The life of the Dalish is a hard one as is any nomadic lifestyle. We had many nomadic tribes around Caspian sea and they all led lives similar to the Dalish. Its a hard life but you get to keep your identity, freedom and lifestyle while living near world powers such as Byzantine and Persian empires. This is acknowledged in Ferelden and Kirkwall, even if they know where the Dalish are many wont join because the life with Dalish is harder than living in alienages and most city elves are helpless and cannot fight in opposed to all Dalish clan members being fighters.

 

True, but for every nomadic tribe that kept their traditions outside the empires, there was another one who settled and became part of them. Also, life is harsh outside, although in a different sense. Settled populations usually provide more food and dedicate less time to get it. The Dalish nomadic lifestyle can't support a large population. According to WoT, they travel in "small bands, often made up of only blood relatives", and Briala counted "fewer than fifty" members in the clan in TME. Meanwhile, the alienage in Val Royeaux alone is said to have ten thousand inhabitants.

 

Life in the alienage is rough, but it's settled and you have a lot of people that can help you even during the worst times. Risking it to find freedom in the wilderness alone, without knowing anything about edible plants or hunting, travelling at the mercy of bandits, and all that to look for a clan of nomads that may have moved to another location by the time you get there needs a lot of faith.

 

Hm... I can't really argue with that.  Fair enough... the Chantry forbid the worship of the Creators as one of the conditions for allowing the elves to remain free and alive within the borders of their nations.  It sounds pretty generous considering the alternatives and the history of aggression between the two races.  I'm not sure how strictly that is enforced now that several centuries have passed, but clearly this ban steered the city elf culture away from their old gods and to the Andrastian faith...  After so much time has passed, however, I can't really blame the city elves for not being enthusiastic about embracing gods that they know little or nothing about.

 

It probably was harsher during the first generations. Afterwards, I guess that the Chantry stopped enforcing it because they assume that everyone is already Andrastian. Benefits of being the dominant religion and, most important, not being challenged inside. Other religions are usually associated with a country (Imperial Chantry, Stone, Qun), so in Orlais or Ferelden I doubt they are worried about conversions. However, I suspect that in Rivain is a different matter.

[TheEternalStudent]

Again, there is no elven culture that has "the most elven culture". All elven cultures are equally elven in culture because it is the culture of elves. 

 

Hence me saying "one of the nicest", not "the nicest". Though depending on how you view how the Qunari do things, them being the nicest is very debatable.

Most purely elven than, Evhenan grew without human involvement, so it is purely elven. The Dalish shun human contact, so their culture is more purely elven, while City Elves are culturally more similar to humans than Dalish.

And I wasn't arguing your point about the Chantry, merely  observing that the Chantry will take elves as Templars despite species, while Qunari assign them regardless.

[Lulupab]

Most purely elven than, Evhenan grew without human involvement, so it is purely elven. The Dalish shun human contact, so their culture is more purely elven, while City Elves are culturally more similar to humans than Dalish.
And I wasn't arguing your point about the Chantry, merely  observing that the Chantry will take elves as Templars despite species, while Qunari assign them regardless.

I think there is a codex that implies the Qunari do not waste anyone and they do not discriminate at all. Evidently they gave a very important mission to Tallis, an elf.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Most purely elven than, Evhenan grew without human involvement, so it is purely elven. The Dalish shun human contact, so their culture is more purely elven, while City Elves are culturally more similar to humans than Dalish.

And I wasn't arguing your point about the Chantry, merely  observing that the Chantry will take elves as Templars despite species, while Qunari assign them regardless.

No, not most purely elven either. Especially since to be an elf, you have to be a pureblooded elf. The only thing the Dalish can say their culture is more of than other elves is they are more like the Arlathan elves in culture. That does not make them more elven. 

 

Okay. I thought you were challenging my post. 

[Icy Magebane]

It probably was harsher during the first generations. Afterwards, I guess that the Chantry stopped enforcing it because they assume that everyone is already Andrastian. Benefits of being the dominant religion and, most important, not being challenged inside. Other religions are usually associated with a country (Imperial Chantry, Stone, Qun), so in Orlais or Ferelden I doubt they are worried about conversions. However, I suspect that in Rivain is a different matter.

Yeah... the authority of the Rivaini Chantry seems fairly weak compared to the other White Chantry nations.  I wouldn't be surprised if the elves there still worshiped the Creators even within the alienages... the Andrastians of Rivain aren't particularly devout, and even go so far as to embrace heretics like the psuedo-Qunari that mimic aspects of the Qunari philosophy.  As far as I can tell, the Rivain Chantry is mostly a facade.  They are too far removed from Orlais for the Chantry to really enforce any laws out there, and the natives were never all that interested to begin with...

 

Although I have to wonder... if the Rivaini's are so accepting that they trade with the local Dalish, why would they even bother to have alienages there in the first place?  They... do have alienages in Rivain, right?

[TheEternalStudent]

 

 

No, not most purely elven either. Especially since to be an elf, you have to be a pureblooded elf. The only thing the Dalish can say their culture is more of than other elves is they are more like the Arlathan elves in culture. That does not make them more elven. 

 

Okay. I thought you were challenging my post. 

 

The culture of Arlathan developed free of humans. Everything about their culture arose from elves, with, not that I think about it, the possible slight assistance of a few dwarves.

Then Arlathan fell, the elves lost their culture, Andraste recruited them, gave them the Dales, and they went to trying to recreate this lost culture. No matter what happened next it would not be purely elven however, they had interacted with humans, and this would shape further development.
However the loss of the Dales splits the elves into two groups, the Dalish and the City Elves. The Dalish try to retain the old culture, but, to some extent, are forced to create a new one, but one predominately constructed by elves. Interactions with other humans is minimally influential.

The City Elves lose most of their older culture, and so create a new one, but one surrounded and defined by humans and their relation to them. They are like immigrants to a new country, they retain aspects of their old life, but each new generation will take more distance from traditions that lack relevance to them. 

[Br3admax]

The last true elven culture is Arlathan, because it grew, while the Dalish only pull from the past, or at least try to. But they are the ones who have the most elven culture. What the Dalish have is slightly more than what the Pre-fall Dalish elves had. The City elves have almost none of this, and are losing what little remains.

They didn't lose it, they didn't want it. You continue to disregard their own unique take on old elven traditions and cling to what you think Arlathan was like, but just like the Dalish, you have no right to make such a claim, because you don't know neither is any more valid than the other. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The culture of Arlathan developed free of humans. Everything about their culture arose from elves, with, not that I think about it, the possible slight assistance of a few dwarves.

Then Arlathan fell, the elves lost their culture, Andraste recruited them, gave them the Dales, and they went to trying to recreate this lost culture. No matter what happened next it would not be purely elven however, they had interacted with humans, and this would shape further development.
However the loss of the Dales splits the elves into two groups, the Dalish and the City Elves. The Dalish try to retain the old culture, but, to some extent, are forced to create a new one, but one predominately constructed by elves. Interactions with other humans is minimally influential.

The City Elves lose most of their older culture, and so create a new one, but one surrounded and defined by humans and their relation to them. They are like immigrants to a new country, they retain aspects of their old life, but each new generation will take more distance from traditions that lack relevance to them. 

Okay, you clearly aren't getting this. 

 

For a culture to be an elven culture, it needs to be a culture that the elves use. That it was made purely by elves or adapted with the introduction of other races does not matter at all, since those other races don't partake in that culture. Thus every culture the elves have right now is just as much a elven culture as any other group of elves. The Dalish Elves are just as culturally elven as the Arlathan Elves, the City Elves are just as culturally elven as the Dalish Elves. 

 

To show it as a math problem: Arlathan=Dales=Dalish=City=etc. 

 

What you are saying is tantamount to racism if applied to real word scenarios. History is full of people who saw other cultures as 'less human' or 'impure' compared to theirs. 

[TheEternalStudent]

They didn't lose it, they didn't want it. You continue to disregard their own unique take on old elven traditions and cling to what you think Arlathan was like, but just like the Dalish, you have no right to make such a claim, because you don't know neither is any more valid than the other. 

The City elves don't seek to be more like Arlathan. The Dalish do. 

They lost it in that they had it once, and don't now.
And if they didn't want it, they wouldn't have rejoined elven society in the Dales.

There is no sign the city elves have any intentional connection to Arlathan. There is no sign they have aby respect for old elven traditions. They seem to be content with living in Alienages, fine. But their culture bears more similarity to human than elvhen.

[Mistic]

Yeah... the authority of the Rivaini Chantry seems fairly weak compared to the other White Chantry nations.  I wouldn't be surprised if the elves there still worshiped the Creators even within the alienages... the Andrastians of Rivain aren't particularly devout, and even go so far as to embrace heretics like the psuedo-Qunari that mimic aspects of the Qunari philosophy.  As far as I can tell, the Rivain Chantry is mostly a facade.  They are too far removed from Orlais for the Chantry to really enforce any laws out there, and the natives were never all that interested to begin with...

 

Although I have to wonder... if the Rivaini's are so accepting that they trade with the local Dalish, why would they even bother to have alienages there in the first place?  They... do have alienages in Rivain, right?

 

World of Thedas defined Rivain as a "patchwork of cultures" that remains one entity "through consensus and compromise".

 

You have Andrastian royalty and nobility that rule the country in theory. Chantry influence in the capital, Dairsmuid, is strong. However, much of the country is composed by traditional communities where matriarchy, pantheism and acceptance of seers (old female mages) is the rule. There are Circles, like in any other Andrastian country, but they "tolerate and work with the seers", allowing them to remain free and take apprentices as long as they aid the nation's templars when required. Then there's the Qunari settlement of Kont-aar. The norther you go in Rivain, the stronger the Qunari influence is. Oh, and let's not forget the Felicissima Armada having their base in Llomerryn. Pirates everywhere.

 

Given this chaotic mess, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an alienage in Dairsmuid, although I suppose defections of City Elves to the Qunari or to the Dalish could be more common, since they have more chances.

[A Clever Name]

The City elves don't seek to be more like Arlathan. The Dalish do. 

They lost it in that they had it once, and don't now.
And if they didn't want it, they wouldn't have rejoined elven society in the Dales.

There is no sign the city elves have any intentional connection to Arlathan. There is no sign they have aby respect for old elven traditions. They seem to be content with living in Alienages, fine. But their culture bears more similarity to human than elvhen.

What "loss" of culture the city elves have experienced is acculturation, which happens naturally when two or more cultures live closely together.  We don't lose our cultures, we adapt them to reflect present circumstances.  The same applies for City Elves.

[Br3admax]

The City elves don't seek to be more like Arlathan. The Dalish do. 

And? That doesn't make them any more like Arlathan or more elven, for that matter. From what we see in TME, the Dalish only have being lead by people just for being magical in common. 

 

They lost it in that they had it once, and don't now.

No, they knew about it and willingly gave it up. Which is kind of the point of the Dalish, they didn't willingly gave it up. You're assuming that City Elves don't know their own history and have never heard of how they became how they are. That's false. 

 

And if they didn't want it, they wouldn't have rejoined elven society in the Dales.

Those weren't City Elves. Those were former slaves who were being brutalized by a mage autocracy. 

 

 

There is no sign the city elves have any intentional connection to Arlathan. 

Except for all the elven culture we see in the alienages. Wanting to connect to their hypocritical ancestors doesn't make the Dalish any more elven than the City Elves. 

 

 

There is no sign they have aby respect for old elven traditions. 

 That giant tree in the middle of every alienage and the elf mage in the Magi Origin say hello. 

 

They seem to be content with living in Alienages, fine. But their culture bears more similarity to human than elvhen.

There is no such thing as human culture. That aside, Arlathan is described as pretty similar to Orlais and Tevinter, so you're obviously wrong. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

What "loss" of culture the city elves have experienced is acculturation, which happens naturally when two or more cultures live closely together.  We don't lose our cultures, we adapt them to reflect present circumstances.  The same applies for City Elves.

 

There's also the fact that part of it was banned. And they have much less opportunity to remember or rediscover old lore than the Dalish do.

[A Clever Name]

There's also the fact that part of it was banned. And they have much less opportunity to remember or rediscover old lore than the Dalish do.

Adaptation through acculturation is not always a choice - cultural imperialism can and does happen, and it's exactly what humans did (and are doing) to the elves.  Elves were forced to adapt, and I never said otherwise.  It's important to keep in mind that acculturation isn't necessarily positive.  It can have very bad effects as well as good ones, and it can be by choice or by law and general supremacist attitudes that cultures are made to adapt.  My argument was simply that the culture isn't dying, it's changing - and this was not meant to reflect on the morality of the circumstances under which these changes took place.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 That giant tree in the middle of every alienage and the elf mage in the Magi Origin say hello. 

 

Codex Entry: Vhenadahl: The Tree of the People
 

"Mostly the old ways are gone. Each generation forgets a little more of the old tongue, a little more of the traditions. And the few things we keep become simple habits, the meaning long since faded.

So it is with the vhenadahl, the tree of the people. Every alienage has one, I'm told. Or they used to. When I was a little girl, my mother told me the tree was a symbol of Arlathan, but not even she knew more. Keeping the vhenadahl is just a habit, now. Many cities have let theirs wither and die, then chopped them up for firewood. No great loss."

--Sarethia, hahren of the Highever Alienage

[Lulupab]

Some city elves even pee on that tree, go figure.

[Br3admax]

Codex Entry: Vhenadahl: The Tree of the People
 

"Mostly the old ways are gone. Each generation forgets a little more of the old tongue, a little more of the traditions. And the few things we keep become simple habits, the meaning long since faded.

So it is with the vhenadahl, the tree of the people. Every alienage has one, I'm told. Or they used to. When I was a little girl, my mother told me the tree was a symbol of Arlathan, but not even she knew more. Keeping the vhenadahl is just a habit, now. Many cities have let theirs wither and die, then chopped them up for firewood. No great loss."

--Sarethia, hahren of the Highever Alienage

And? The Dalish don't know anymore about why they do most of the things they do, which was the point. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And? The Dalish don't know anymore about why they do most of the things they do, which was the point. 

 

Of course they do. They know more of the language, they know more of the meaning behind traditions and words. The fact that most of the old traditions are still lost doesn't mean they don't know more than the City Elves do. And the reason is the Dalish have made a more concerted effort trying to hold on to old lore.

 

You know, the very thing that Dalish haters lambast them for doing? And have done recently in this very thread?

[Br3admax]

Of course they do. They know more of the language, they know more of the meaning behind traditions and words. 

Knowing a language hardly makes them more elven. Either way, they hardly know any of that. 

 

 

The fact that most of the old traditions are still lost doesn't mean they don't know more than the City Elves do. And the reason is the Dalish have made a more concerted effort trying to hold on to old lore.

They don't know more because by their own words they don't. The fact that they are trying harder doesn't change the fact that besides their language, they know nothing. And with their language, they know so little. They have scraps. 

 

You know, the very thing that Dalish haters lambast them for doing? And have done recently in this very thread?

I don't know what a Dalish hater is, but somehow I think it goes beyond them wanting to practice their own culture. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Knowing a language hardly makes them more elven. Either way, they hardly know any of that. 

 

 

They don't know more because by their own words they don't. The fact that they are trying harder doesn't change the fact that besides their language, they know nothing. And with their language, they know so little. They have scraps. 

 

They do know more than the City Elves by their own words. That's kind of another thing that the anti-Dalish folk lambast them for, in fact. They almost always say they remember more about the old ways than the City Elves (and they do). They often hope to teach the old lore to "the elves that have forgotten" one day.

 

Language is important, but they know more than that. They know more their history, traditions and religion than the City Elves. What else are they supposed to know?

 

I don't know what a Dalish hater is, but somehow I think it goes beyond them wanting to practice their own culture. 

 

Really?

 

How close have you been paying attention to this thread?

 

 

It's just the Dalish that are due for a cleansing.

 

Dalish elves can go die in a fire though.

 

as long as we get to start it

 

but remember the city elves aren't true elves according to our favorite barbarian nomads

 

All the more reason for the Dalish to go die in a fire then.

 

remaining hide-bound to tradition is a recipe for extinction

 

Yep. We only need to look at the Dwarves to see that.

 

Of course it's not all they say is wrong with the Dalish but it was literally on the previous page where people said it was inherently wrong to try to cling to old traditions.

[Mistic]

They don't know more because by their own words they don't. The fact that they are trying harder doesn't change the fact that besides their language, they know nothing. And with their language, they know so little. They have scraps. 

 

Well, my personal opinion about the matter is that even if it's little, the Dalish do know more things about the old Arlathan culture (I refuse to call it just "elven", for the reasons Kallen pointed out before) than their City Brethren. Even if it's just because they know more words than them (language is part of a culture, after all).

 

The problem with Dalish knowledge isn't "how can you be so proud if you still know very little?", but "how can you be sure that you are interpreting that knowledge correctly?". To give a simple example, what if they got the names wrong and Andruil is the goddess of fire while her sister Sylaise is the goddess of the hunt? According to the original Arlathan lore of course; it's interesting to point out that the text about the elven pantheon in WoT keeps saying "Dalish lore", "the Dalish tell stories", "the Dalish believe". In no neutral source it's said that the pantheon they worship was the Arlathan one.

 

It's an example, so let's not start a discussion about "yes, Andruil was the goddess of the hunt because someone mentioned that...". The point isn't whether Andruild was the goddess of the hunt or not in Arlathan, but that the Dalish could have made a lot of mistakes like that because they don't know much about past elven civilization, despite knowing more than others.

[Ryzaki]

How close have you been paying attention to this thread?

 

Of course it's not all they say is wrong with the Dalish but it was literally on the previous page where people said it was inherently wrong to try to cling to old traditions.

 

#proud dalish hater.

 

What?

 

This is an elven support thread not a dalish support thread.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I assume every Dalish hater is proud of it. So I would expect most would be happy to corroborate the claim that they exist.

[LOLandStuff]

I find it rather weird the old elves would worship the current Dalish pantheon since it seems rather hippiesque, what with all that nature stuff and whatnot. From what we're told about Arlathan, it just looks like they were way too sophisticated for greenery. I doubt they even actually worshiped gods, if what's said about their dreamers is true.