2121 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Removing the Canticle of Shartan after the fall of the Dales was a real mind boggle. Don't understand it myself, it just seems like a knee-jerk reaction on paper, but maybe there was controversy over it being canonical or not... still, it would have been better to keep it and use it to encourage conversion and easier assimilation. Point to it for elves and humans, see their relationship as fellow Andrastians and not just the conquered and the victor.

[The Baconer]

No it's not. It's the same group using their power for...different purposes. The common man is still caught in the middle. 

 

And it is only allowed to continue due to the fact that some people certainly do have the privilege to infringe on other people's rights.

[Icy Magebane]

I'd much rather invite as many city elves as possible to join the Dalish. We need both backup and the ability to undermine human societies by stripping their cheap labor pool.

lol... I think the invitation has been there ever since the fall of the Dales.  Most city elves want nothing to do with the Dalish.

[Xilizhra]

The genetics bit doesn't really matter that much. What does matter is that you have a dominant life form vs. a subservient one. Even if magic can fix this issue, it can't fix being surrounded by human-led civilization.

Well, for that, we need casualties and infrastructure damage from the Breach to be as high as possible, or at least use that as a start. The Dalish don't need to exacerbate it, but should take advantage in whatever way possible that wouldn't lead to a declaration of war. Possibly actually aiding the humans and leaving them indebted would be a good start; also creating as many refuge spots for fleeing city elves as possible.

[Br3admax]

And it is only allowed to continue due to the fact that some people certainly do have the privilege to infringe on other people's rights.

Of course. But that'll never change in a world where greed and need exist. Which is any world. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Removing the Canticle of Shartan after the fall of the Dales was are real mind boggle. Don't understand it myself, it just seems like a knee-jerk reaction on paper, but maybe there was controversy over it being canonical or not... still, it would have been better to keep it and use it to encourage conversion and easier assimilation. Point to it for elves and humans, see their relationship as fellow Andrastians and not just the conquered and the victor.

 

It's also possible the Canticle of Shartan had references to the Dales being granted to the elves by Andraste and Mafterath or something. But we won't know until we actually hear more of it.

[TheJediSaint]

Removing the Canticle of Shartan after the fall of the Dales was are real mind boggle. Don't understand it myself, it just seems like a knee-jerk reaction on paper, but maybe there was controversy over it being canonical or not... still, it would have been better to keep it and use it to encourage conversion and easier assimilation. Point to it for elves and humans, see their relationship as fellow Andrastians and not just the conquered and the victor.

The Chantry, at least at the core of the organization, is an Orleasian institution.  I think removing Shartan's Canticle is an understandable, though not necessarily justified reaction to the Dalish invasion.

[Drasanil]

1. Tevinter is Andrastian.

2. Most Elves are Slaves.

3. Slave are often used for experiments (Fenris) or used as blood batteries (Oriana's father).  

 

Tevinter is just about the worst place in Thedas for an elf to advanced, save the Deep Roads.

 

Except for the fact that:

 

A ) Tevinter is specifically noted as having 'rich' elves, precisely because of the slavery practice, where members of the family can sell themselves into slavery to provide a future for their Children.

 

B ) Elven families with mage children become liberati or what not and Word of Dev on it is elven mages are treated better than human non-mages.

 

C ) Slaves being used as blood batteries would apply eqully to human slaves as well, which Tevinter also has. Sub-point: Fenris is a poor example given he competed for the privilege of being experimented on. Another Sub-point: Oriana's father is a case of wrong place, wrong time, he was killed because he was property, had Hadrianna had human slaves should would have probably done the exact same to them to save her own life. 

[RobRam10]

1. Tevinter is Andrastian.

2. Most Elves are Slaves.

3. Slave are often used for experiments (Fenris) or used as blood batteries (Oriana's father).  

 

Tevinter is just about the worst place in Thedas for an elf to advanced, save the Deep Roads.

Tevinter is not Andrastian.

[Daerog]

It's also possible the Canticle of Shartan had references to the Dales being granted to the elves by Andraste and Mafterath or something. But we won't know until we actually hear more of it.

 

It was granted by Andraste's sons, not Andraste or her human husband.

[Ryzaki]

Where would the Dalish go?

 

To the qunari lands? To the unknown/uncharted lands where they could all die from some foreign disease? To the unknown/uncharted lands where they may have to war with some other culture for a new foothold and thus be the humans to those people?

 

It's not so easy to just pick up and leave. They could send an expedition force out and possibly never hear from them again, losing more "pure elves."

 

Their best bet is to gain an alliance/friendship with a human nation, be it the Anderfels, Nevarra, or even Orlais. They need more trade and they can gain land when their chosen friend/ally goes to war and they help, against the Qunari or some other human faction. I think that is their best bet in surviving. Some clans are already opening up to humans (the Keeper in the MP, the dalish in the PnP RPG that sets up a festival near a human town, but not sure if that is canon...) and there are scholars who are interested in the Dalish and the Dalish can use those sympathies/curiosities.

 

Just throwing my thoughts into the thread.

 

That's why they should've been looking while they've been traveling for the last few centuries. It's not like they haven't had plenty of time to send out scouts to different areas.

 

No one sane would head to qunari lands. That's kind of the risk in exploring. Well they could also try to live in peace but you do what you have to do.

 

They're losing more pure elves every day. They didn't just start this wandering thing. They have powerful mages and I'm expected to believe they can't form a exploring party?

 

And it only took them how many years to start opening up to humans? And even then you still get really silly clans that are absurdly hostile when dealing with people who've done nothing to them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Except for the fact that:

 

A ) Tevinter is specifically noted as having 'rich' elves, precisely because of the slavery practice, where members of the family can sell themselves into slavery to provide a future for their Children.

 

B ) Elven families with mage children become liberati or what not and Word of Dev on it is elven mages are treated better than human non-mages.

 

C ) Slaves being used as blood batteries would apply eqully to human slaves as well, which Tevinter also has. Sub-point: Fenris is a poor example given he competed for the privilege of being experimented on. Another Sub-point: Oriana's father is a case of wrong place, wrong time, he was killed because he was property, had Hadrianna had human slaves should would have probably done the exact same to them to save her own life. 

 

Personally I think living in an alienage that is richer but selling it's own people into slavery is a net negative tradeoff for the elves living there.

 

It was granted by Andraste's sons, not Andraste or her human husband.

 

World of Thedas' glossary section says otherwise.

[Daerog]

Tevinter is not Andrastian.

 

It follows the teachings of Andraste. It does not worship Andraste or see her as The Chosen One, just an Anointed one like Hessarian.

 

It is Andrastian in the sense that it does follow her teachings and the Chant. It was following the Chant and had its own Andrastian priests and clerics before Drakon decided to make the Chantry.

[Ryzaki]

But it doesn't even have to be about that. The life they have now is better than the life the City Elves have. Why wouldn't they want to keep things they way they are if the alternative is worse? How long do you think it will be from the present day in the Dragon Age that the human nations offer elves equal rights? Why wouldn't the Dalish Clans want to spend the time it takes for that to happen on their own?

 

Living better than the City elves isn't some great feat. They're wandering from settlement to settlement usually bothering some humans land and have to scurry away the second the humans get sick of them squatting. I'm not suggesting the dalish move into the cities because at this point it's far too late for that. But if they want to claim they're better off far away from humans...for them to actually go far away from humans. And keep any interactions with said humans as pleasant and brief as possible instead of the grrr humans with the attitude problems they often give you.

 

A while actually thus my whole long rocky road for the city elves. I wouldn't be surprised if it took a few more centuries.

[TheJediSaint]

It follows the teachings of Andraste. It does not worship Andraste or see her as The Chosen One, just an Anointed one like Hessarian.

 

It is Andrastian in the sense that it does follow her teachings and the Chant. It was following the Chant and had its own Andrastian priests and clerics before Drakon decided to make the Chantry.

They eventually created their own Chantry too.

[Andraste Take the Wheel]

Some clans are already opening up to humans (the Keeper in the MP, the dalish in the PnP RPG that sets up a festival near a human town, but not sure if that is canon...) and there are scholars who are interested in the Dalish and the Dalish can use those sympathies/curiosities.

 

The Dalish Wardens father was apparently also very much in favour of reaching out and interacting with humans more according to the craftsman of Zathrian's clan. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the cause of his death...

[KaiserShep]

Well, for that, we need casualties and infrastructure damage from the Breach to be as high as possible, or at least use that as a start. The Dalish don't need to exacerbate it, but should take advantage in whatever way possible that wouldn't lead to a declaration of war. Possibly actually aiding the humans and leaving them indebted would be a good start; also creating as many refuge spots for fleeing city elves as possible.

 

As this is likely not going to happen, the Dalish and elven kind will likely always be at the mercy of the human population.

 

It'd be curious to see what the writers would do with this universe if they jumped forward a few hundred or even a thousand years.

[The Baconer]

Of course. But that'll never change in a world where greed and need exist. Which is any world. 

 

Then the original idea becomes worthless.

[TheJediSaint]

B ) Elven families with mage children become liberati or what not and Word of Dev on it is elven mages are treated better than human non-mages.

So either be a mage, have a mage child.  That seems rather long odds to me.

[Xilizhra]

As this is likely not going to happen, the Dalish and elven kind will likely always be at the mercy of the human population.

If you're right--if this is a matter of extinction for the entire elven race--then all necessary measures must be taken to ensure its survival. The most effective solution I can think of right now is disease; a magically engineered one (it's strongly implied that this was the cause of the Alienage plague in DAO, so I suspect it's possible, but this would need to be far more virulent) that could be relatively easily distributed thanks to the mobility of the Dalish clans. The mortality rate would need to be high enough to cut the human population down to a manageable level, and the Dalish would have to be ready to flee military retaliation at all times, though with luck, any armies that went after them would be too sickened to go far.

Obviously, this would be a last resort--but if it is, as you say, likely to end up in the extinction of the elves if it goes any farther on its present course, it's us or them.

[Drasanil]

Personally I think living in an alienage that is richer but selling it's own people into slavery is a net negative tradeoff for the elves living there.

 

Really? I'd sell myself into slavery in a heartbeat if it meant my children and grand-children could have a better life. Which is exactly the deal Tevinter offers. Tevinter is not a nice place, but at least they are honest about what they are. Further more, Tevinter will honor such societal bargains, because that 'honesty' is a part of what keeps the system going, after all there is a reason why many elves chose to stay even after Andraste freed them.

 

Compare that to the 'good' human countries where a successful elf is just beaten down, robbed and/or killed the moment they move out of the alienage and I know which system I'd rather be a part of. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Dalish Wardens father was apparently also very much in favour of reaching out and interacting with humans more according to the craftsman of Zathrian's clan. Wouldn't be surprised if that was the cause of his death...

 

He was apparently killed by a multiracial group of bandits while sneaking off to be with his lady friend.

 

Living better than the City elves isn't some great feat. They're wandering from settlement to settlement usually bothering some humans land and have to scurry away the second the humans get sick of them squatting. I'm not suggesting the dalish move into the cities because at this point it's far too late for that. But if they want to claim they're better off far away from humans...for them to actually go far away from humans. And keep any interactions with said humans as pleasant and brief as possible instead of the grrr humans with the attitude problems they often give you.

 

A while actually thus my whole long rocky road for the city elves. I wouldn't be surprised if it took a few more centuries.

 

But animosity with human settlements is hardly a universal trait with the Dalish. The clans often trade peacefully with human settlements. There's actually a line in the Masked Empire when Briala and Celene's party approaches a remote Orlesian village in the Dales, where one of them remarks that these people could either attack elves on sight for being bandits or trade with them regularly. So there is a history of both types of interaction with humanity. Plus if the Dalish Elves are the better off of the two elven groups, shouldn't they be the less likely to need to change anything?

[Daerog]

 

World of Thedas' glossary section says otherwise.

 

I see that it does... was it a Codex or a forum post or in game dialogue that said her sons gave it to them? Makes more sense for it to be her sons, since the war was over after Andraste died, but it was 10 years after her death when news about the betrayal became known....

 

Bah, whatever, doesn't matter who gave it, the Chantry could have used it to show how the Dalish went against their patron, their Andrastian allies, and the Maker when they threatened the seat of the Chantry, the removal of the Canticle was a silly decision unless it was for more reasons than just "the elves fought Orlais."

[Drasanil]

So either be a mage, have a mage child.  That seems rather long odds to me.

 

Nope, in fact one of the earliest noted exceptions on the elf=poor issue was Tevinter. There are rich elves in Tevinter precisely because they can sell themselves into slavery to provide for their families.

 

As opposed to say good old Ferelden, where they can be instrumental in its liberation [Loghain's Night Elves] and never recieve recognition for it. Worse still, with in a few years be clandestinely sold into slavery by the very commander that initially recognized their worth because it was convenient. 

 

Tevinter is not a nice place, but I'd take its honest attitude over filthy dog-lords' hypocrisy and treachery. 

[Ryzaki]

But animosity with human settlements is hardly a universal trait with the Dalish. The clans often trade peacefully with human settlements. There's actually a line in the Masked Empire when Briala and Celene's party approaches a remote Orlesian village in the Dales, where one of them remarks that these people could either attack elves on sight for being bandits or trade with them regularly. So there is a history of both types of interaction with humanity. Plus if the Dalish Elves are the better off of the two elven groups, shouldn't they be the less likely to need to change anything?

 

Often trading peacefully being on a similar scale as attacking on sight for bandits seems dubious at best. But I never argued that all dalish interaction with humanity was hostile.

 

They don't have to change anything. But they shouldn't expect anything to change either if they do that. They won't change...and shall remain nomadic barely scraping by with no homeland to speak of that's not run by humans.

 

Welp.