2121 réponses à ce sujet

[Daerog]

Well he wasn't right that they were a greater threat than the darkspawn.

 

I agree that was one of his mistakes, but he was right that Orlais would make a play to take over Fereldan if they came to help, and that letter about possible marriage between Celene and Cailan proved him right. His paranoia about Orlais is oddly prophetic.

 

Elves serve Tevinter willingly :

"I am Tevinter first and a servant of the Minrathous Circle second, those are the things that matter." - Devera

 

 

From what we've seen so far, Tevinter culture values power above all else.  At least until Dorian provides a counter point.

 

Ya, it does seem that the elves (or at least some) see themselves as part of Tevinter and not seperate from it, even if they started as slaves. Kind of like Zevran with Antiva.

 

This whole "elvish homeland" is really just a Dalish thing, many if not most elves seem to just want to live side by side with humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This whole "elvish homeland" is really just a Dalish thing, many if not most elves seem to just want to live side by side with humans.

 

Well I don't think "side by side with humans" is the right term. They want to live where they are. Most City Elves don't really like or get along with humans, but they are just an immutable fact of their lives.

[Ryzaki]

It doesn't help that the Dalish are not exactly a unified society either, considering that they keep very distant relations with sister tribes, and do not have any formal, efficient method of communication. Basically, it would most likely be the work of one particular tribe that got its collective minds together to conjure up this idea, screwing over other tribes that have no idea what's going on, and many of them would settle far too close to a human-populated area and would probably have no idea what's in store for them.

 

That as well. It'd be a massive "I made a huge mistake." on that clan's part with everyone else staring on in horror.

 

Wonder what they'd call it though. The great purging?

[KaiserShep]

Well I don't think "side by side with humans" is the right term. They want to live where they are. Most City Elves don't really like or get along with humans, but they are just an immutable fact of their lives.

 

This is what I think as well. Even if city elves settled in their own small village, it would be a sedentary, agricultural society like human villages are, not like the Dalish. Some customs would be unmistakeably elven, but for the most part, it would be like visiting the Shire or something. Come to think of it, it would be interesting to see an elven society in DA that is not in an alienage, but is not a Dalish clan either.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

That as well. It'd be a massive "I made a huge mistake." on that clan's part with everyone else staring on in horror.

 

Wonder what they'd call it though. The great purging?

 

The Great Thedas turkey Dalish shoot.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1) No, it wasn't. One nobles voices disapproval for the notion but no one really cared. In fact I'm pretty sure it was one of the charges that shifted the landsmeet the least, if not at all, against Loghain.

 

Seemed like a major scandal to me. He got in political trouble in the Landsmeet and it wasn't something that he would want to risk doing if he wasn't as desperate as he was.

 

2) "Overwhelmingly human" considering that dwarves are never considered to be citizens, that means there are at least some elves are members of the soporati class. As opposed to say in 'nice' countries, where all elves are either alienage wage slaves [which is actually worse than being a slave, since people at least have an actual incentive to look after their own property, even if that property is other people] or members of the circle/apostates/dalish. 

 

Life in the alienages is absolutely not worse than being a slave in Tevinter. There's a former slave in the Denerim alienage that tells you as much I think. And I really don't think that Tevinter basically having basically almost no elves that are wealthy enough to be middle class (or whatever Soporati are) is a point in favor of them. You can probably find the odd exception in other countries too. Soris supposedly marries a human woman does he not?

 

IIRC, it was part of one of the Tevinter Elven slave's account on the long walk to the Dales, where they were given a choice to stay or leave and those chose to leave despite the hardships of being treated relatively well by their master. 

 

There's only two accounts of the Long Walk. There's an anonymous elven slave's account in World of Thedas. He doesn't mention anyone going back. But he does mention that he left because his master didn't starve or beat him but did constantly bleed him badly enough that he thought he would die.

 

There's also a Codex in the games where a Dalish Keeper recounts the history of the Long Walk. This one does mention that some elves turned back because of the enormous and deadly hardships. "Some turned back toward Tevinter. But most of us continued walking."

[Drasanil]

The Great Thedas turkey Dalish shoot.

 

No fair, at least turkeys' get a presidential pardon every year 

[Cainhurst Crow]

If you're right--if this is a matter of extinction for the entire elven race--then all necessary measures must be taken to ensure its survival. The most effective solution I can think of right now is disease; a magically engineered one (it's strongly implied that this was the cause of the Alienage plague in DAO, so I suspect it's possible, but this would need to be far more virulent) that could be relatively easily distributed thanks to the mobility of the Dalish clans. The mortality rate would need to be high enough to cut the human population down to a manageable level, and the Dalish would have to be ready to flee military retaliation at all times, though with luck, any armies that went after them would be too sickened to go far.

Obviously, this would be a last resort--but if it is, as you say, likely to end up in the extinction of the elves if it goes any farther on its present course, it's us or them.

 

Elf supporters are completely sane. Watch as they argue in favor of biological terrorism with intent of genocide, and nobody even seems to mind.

[Drasanil]

Seemed like a major scandal to me. He got in political trouble in the Landsmeet and it wasn't something that he would want to risk doing if he wasn't as desperate as he was.

 

Yeah totally, except for the bitz where I pointed out how it absolutely wasn't

 

Life in the alienages is absolutely not worse than being a slave in Tevinter. There's a former slave in the Denerim alienage that tells you as much I think. And I really don't think that Tevinter basically having basically almost no elves that are wealthy enough to be middle class (or whatever Soporati are) is a point in favor of them. You can probably find the odd exception in other countries too. Soris supposedly marries a human woman does he not?

 

 

Depends on the master. As for the rest, if it was that rare, Bioware pointing out that Tevinter was an exception to rule would be kind of pointless wouldn't it? 

 

Personally, I think it makes sense. Bioware really does seem to be trying to give all sides some good and bad, painting Tevinter as purely evil in every way would kind of defeat the point... especially when they already implemented the Qunari to do that Job

 

There's only two accounts of the Long Walk. There's an anonymous elven slave's account in World of Thedas. He doesn't mention anyone going back. But he does mention that he left because his master didn't starve or beat him but did constantly bleed him badly enough that he thought he would die.

 

There's also a Codex in the games where a Dalish Keeper recounts the history of the Long Walk. This one does mention that some elves turned back because of the enormous and deadly hardships. "Some turned back toward Tevinter. But most of us continued walking."

 

Could be, couldn't be, honestly been long enough since I read the codex entries and what not. Still the point remains that a fairly large number of elves chose to remain in Tevinter despite being given a real shot at freedom, that speaks to some of Tevinter's merits I would say. 

[Shadow Fox]

Yeah I expect this'll be locked later in the day.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah totally, except for the bitz where I pointed out how it absolutely wasn't

 

Which isn't really any more authoritative than me pointing out that it was. Point is, it's not something that normally happens in Ferelden, compared to Tevinter.

 

 

Could be, couldn't be, honestly been long enough since I read the codex entries and what not. Still the point remains that a fairly large number of elves chose to remain in Tevinter despite being given a real shot at freedom, that speaks to some of Tevinter's merits I would say. 

 

Well no. The codex says only a small number elves chose to return, and all that proves is that Tevinter has more merits to those elves than a long journey where people are constantly dying of starvation, exposure and bandits. If anything is speaks of all the hardships most elves were willing to endure to get away from Tevinter. The World of Thedas account says that like barely half of that one elf's original group of people who left Vol Dorma in Tevinter made it to Halamshiral.

 

Depends on the master. As for the rest, if it was that rare, Bioware pointing out that Tevinter was an exception to rule would be kind of pointless wouldn't it? 

 

Personally, I think it makes sense. Bioware really does seem to be trying to give all sides some good and bad, painting Tevinter as purely evil in every way would kind of defeat the point... especially when they already implemented the Qunari to do that Job

 

An exception to what rule? Where exactly has Bioware stated that Tevinter is supposed to be generally better for elves? I think that *if* Bioware was trying to create a mostly evil faction, it would Tevinter and not the Qunari. The Qunari have a lot of redeeming qualities. Maybe more than anyone. But they also have the most heavy price for living under the Qun.

[TheLittleBird]

*Comes into thread*

 

But in all seriousness:

 

I actually really like the Dalish. And I'm not even talking about liking them on a personal, social or even moral level, i.e. approving of the way they do things or live life or what their stances are on demons or whatever, as that is kind of a mixed bag for me. I'm talking purely on a narrative level here. They're wandering clans, outcasts to the rest of Thedas, forced to live off the land. They've been cut off from their history, and also their own kin, with whom some of them want nothing to do. It makes for an interesting dynamic in this race that's often only depicted in fantasy as tree-people, for which you can thank Tolkien, while here in Dragon Age that's not really the case. The Dalish, despite living in the wilds, mostly the woods, are different, and the fact that there is a whole other side to elven society, namely the half that lives in slums in the big human cities, can lead to very interesting situations. 

 

On a personal, moral and social level I have mixed feelings about the elves. Some of them I do not like, some of them I very much like. But I can't say that I don't feel sorry for them, especially the city elves. Whatever one may think of their ancestors, why should those that have done nothing get the blame for it? (Of course, I'm not talking about every elf here, as there are some that shouldn't be called 'innocent')

[Elfyoth]

I think we'll have a chance of getting a Dales independent state for Elves. Or at least hope so, sorry if somone have already posted it or somthing but I am to lazy to check all this pages ...

[Steelcan]

Elf supporters are completely sane. Watch as they argue in favor of biological terrorism with intent of genocide, and nobody even seems to mind.

. It's all the better because it won't work. The last time the Dalish attacked humanity they got chewed up and spat out so hard they have never recovered from it. The majority of their population was converted, religiously and culturally, the rest scattered to the corners of the map to live as barely better than bandits.

Now that they have lost most of their population and production capability a war ith humanity would go down in history as a suicide by cop situation.

[TheEternalStudent]

I meant Thelhan, sorry.

Though Felassan has Vallaslin, so he is Dalish.

It takes more than facial tattoos to be Dalish, and he never identifies as such. He's definitely connected to them however.

[Steelcan]

It takes more than facial tattoos to be Dalish, and he never identifies as such. He's definitely connected to them however.

. Only Dalish have the tattoos

[Xilizhra]

Elf supporters are completely sane. Watch as they argue in favor of biological terrorism with intent of genocide, and nobody even seems to mind.

A. This is only if the only other alternative is extinction, and B. I only said it after so much of the opposition wouldn't shut up about genocide.

[TheLittleBird]

nvm something went wrong here.

[Steelcan]

A. This is only if the only other alternative is extinction, and B. I only said it after so much of the opposition wouldn't shut up about genocide.

I think its clear that the Dalish are circling the drain. And if they were capable of such magic, you'd think they'd have used it when Arlathan fell, or the Dales. Seems to me that if they had a last resort trump card they'd have played it by now.

[Patchwork]

Did elves start using vassalin after the fall of the Dales or before?

 

I could definitely see Felassan's clan as a group that chose a different path to wondering nomad or human servant. 

[TheEternalStudent]

. Only Dalish have the tattoos

The Dalish do not have copyrights on the designs such that they could prevent others from using them, and they use them as they are part of older Elvhen traditions (as best we can tell) which doubtless they share with Fel'Assan.

[TheLittleBird]

. Only Dalish have the tattoos

 

We don't know that. 

[Steelcan]

Major premise: adult Dalish have vallaslin
Minor premise: Felassan have vallaslin

Conclusion: Therefore, Felassan is an adult Dalish

That doesn't add up. It's simple logic.

No that adds up quite nicely. At least in the absence of any other cultures using the same tattoos.

[Steelcan]

We have never seen or heard of any other individual or culture with the facial tattoos. Therefore it is logical to conclude that the practice is limited to the extant Dalish or perhaps the extinct Arlathan elves as well.

[TheLittleBird]

No that adds up quite nicely

 

Actually that one syllogism there is wrong. But something went wrong, I didn't actually mean to post that there.