2121 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

The elves don't have longer lifespans anymore.

They never had them. Are we really still questioning this?

[Lulupab]

Well, we also couldn't play as a dwarf noble in this game, or a human barbarian ever, or an actual Tal-Vashoth ever; I don't see the lack of city elves as standing out much.

 

Agreed. Not to mention they always have to make the CE a snowflake who secretly learned to fight someway because city elves are banned from doing that. It seems we cannot be a nobody in Inquisition because that would make no sense in becoming the inquisitor. All origins seems to be someone important, though I'm not sure about the Qunari.

[Icy Magebane]

They never had them. Are we really still questioning this?

I'm not... I even cast doubt on it somewhere in the last few posts... but I do try to leave it open-ended since it's hard to predict where they will go with the lore.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'm not... I even cast doubt on it somewhere in the last few posts... but I do try to leave it open-ended since it's hard to predict where they will go with the lore.

 

Turns out the ancient elves did have some immortality.... from sacrificing thousands of elven slaves in blood magic rituals....

[Lulupab]

They never had them. Are we really still questioning this?

 

With current lore we have its impossible to tell if they ever had them or no. Its simply ambiguous plot. "Never" is a very strong and false word you just used.

[Icy Magebane]

Turns out the ancient elves did have some immortality.... from sacrificing thousands of elven slaves in blood magic rituals....

lol... which is probably what we should have expected considering this is a Bioware dark fantasy franchise. 

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

lol... which is probably what we should have expected considering this is a Bioware dark fantasy franchise. 

 

Turns out Tevinter taking down Arlathan was actually considered a MERCY compared to what their own rulers were doing to the elven underclass....

[Br3admax]

With current lore we have its impossible to tell if they ever had them or no. Its simply ambiguous plot. "Never" is a very strong and false word you just used.

Nope, it's a very strong and true word. The elves as a race probably never had immortality, they were just brutalized by their mage oppressors. When the humans did the same to them as their own people did, the strong made up fanciful tales to tell to the weak to explain thousands of years of being what they despised the most. 

[Lulupab]

Nope, it's a very strong and true word. The elves as a race probably never had immortality, they were just brutalized by their mage oppressors. When the humans did the same to them as their own people did, the strong made up fanciful tales to tell to the weak to explain thousands of years of being what they despised the most. 

 

Maybe that's true but its baseless for the moment. If your next post does not have proof of what you just claimed don't bother replying because you remind me of people in court who swear to god constantly and use the word never over and over again without having any proof. I deal with those people on a daily basis and cannot do it here again.

 

There is no proof showing elves were immortal and there is no proof there weren't either. I respect this and have the courtesy to call it ambiguous instead of claiming things far from proven and "true".

[Br3admax]

How is it baseless when it's stated flat out in TME? The elves know nothing about their true history, and I doubt they really want to. And where have I brought god up anywhere. Instead of attacking me personally, why don't you show any evidence that actually supports the elves claim to immortality, because right now nothing else does? 

[Lulupab]

How is it baseless when it's stated flat out in TME? The elves know nothing about their true history, and I doubt they really want to. And where have I brought god up anywhere. Instead of attacking me personally, why don't you show any evidence that actually supports the elves claim to immortality, because right now nothing else does?

It has nothing to do with god, its what people irl do to relentlessly defend something they have no proof of which was what you were doing. It was not a personal attack, what you're doing is a fallacy and I thought I should bring it up. Besides when did I claim elves were immortal? I simply said its ambiguous and it is because right now nothing else is against it but speculation and bias. Same applies to elven sources claiming they were immortal. So until more lore is revealed about it its ultimately undecided. I don't know why you are even trying this hard to prove something Bioware itself has made not possible to prove for either side.

[Br3admax]

It has nothing to do with god, its what people irl do to relentlessly defend something they have no proof of which was what you were doing. 

Not really. I presented in text evidence and you responded, "But no." Don't insult me or my intelligence. 

It was not a personal attack, what you're doing is a fallacy and I thought I should bring it up. 

The only thing you did was say my argument was invalid because it reminded you of someone else. That's a fallacy. Especially when you claimed my argument was false just because you couldn't prove it wasn't true. 

 

 Besides when did I claim elves were immortal? I simply said its ambiguous and it is because right now nothing else is against it but speculation and bias. Same applies to elven sources claiming they were immortal. So until more lore is revealed about it its ultimately undecided. I don't know why you are even trying this hard to prove something Bioware itself has made not possible to prove for either side.

There's no evidence to support the elves and there is to support my argument. So until I see further lore, I'll go with the actual evidence. So even though you tried to compare me to some two bit lawyer or witness, this isn't a court case. Nothing has to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is a video game, and I'll take my chances if wrong. 

[LOLandStuff]

Turns out the ancient elves did have some immortality.... from sacrificing thousands of elven slaves in blood magic rituals....

 

Maybe Arlathan elves were running out of elven slaves for their immortality and found the humans, brought them, tried to sacrifieces them but weren't able to prolong their life and instead weakened themselves and got all sorts of illnesses doing so. Then they kicked out the humans and told them to get lost. And the humans weren't happy about that.

[Mistic]

The only thing you did was say my argument was invalid because it reminded you of someone else. That's a fallacy. Especially when you claimed my argument was false just because you couldn't prove it wasn't true.

 

True, but neither could you, to be honest. The answer to the immortality issue wasn't "flat out stated in TME". The only things that the book proved without any doubt were that the Eluvians worked and were an elven invention, and that there was in the past an upper class of dreamers that actually performed uthenera (by the way, the book calls it "uthenara", despite being uthenera in games). It's implied that those may have been actually immortal or at least very long lived, but Felassan was vague about it.

 

I wouldn't lose hope about this issue. It seems that we're going to explore elven ruins in Inquisition. With some luck, we may find a definite answer there.

[Br3admax]

True, but neither could you, to be honest. The answer to the immortality issue wasn't "flat out stated in TME". The only things that the book proved without any doubt were that the Eluvians worked and were an elven invention, and that there was in the past an upper class of dreamers that actually performed uthenera. It's implied that those may have been actually immortal or at least very long lived, but Felassan was vague about it.

 

I wouldn't lose hope about this issue. It seems that we're going to explore elven ruins in Inquisition. With some luck, we may find a definite answer there.

It's called exaggeration, and as you probably know at this point, I'm prone to it. It wasn't flat out proven, but it was very much stated, though Inever said otherwise. I also never said that there weren't immortal elves. I said that the elven belief that there race was somehow stunted by human slavery is wrong. I'm sure there were some dreamers who milked their kin to the bone. I think I said that a few times in this thread, actually. 

[Lulupab]

 

Not really. I presented in text evidence and you responded, "But no." Don't insult me or my intelligence. 

The only thing you did was say my argument was invalid because it reminded you of someone else. That's a fallacy. Especially when you claimed my argument was false just because you couldn't prove it wasn't true. 

 

There's no evidence to support the elves and there is to support my argument. So until I see further lore, I'll go with the actual evidence. So even though you tried to compare me to some two bit lawyer or witness, this isn't a court case. Nothing has to be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is a video game, and I'll take my chances if wrong. 

 

 

Fair enough, as long as you continue acknowledging its your theory interpreted by you from the available lore. "Never" shouldn't be used in this sort of arguments. TME is words of one elf so what reason do you have not to believe Master Ilen? So going off of the Lore and Codex entries, Dalish Elves seem live longer than city elves. Master IIen’s father fought the Clayne when the Dalish fled the Dales, and yet the Dales fell over 700 years prior to the events of DA:O and Master IIen is still kicking it even into DA2. He should be at least 200 years old.

[raging_monkey]

Fair enough, as long as you continue acknowledging its your theory interpreted by you from the available lore. "Never" shouldn't be used in this sort of arguments. TME is words of one elf so what reason do you have not to believe Master Ilen? So going off of the Lore and Codex entries, Dalish Elves seem live longer than city elves. Master IIen’s father fought the Clayne when the Dalish fled the Dales, and yet the Dales fell over 700 years prior to the events of DA:O and Master IIen is still kicking it even into DA2. He should be at least 200 years old.

elves living longer was rectoned and is generally inconsitent on their age rate

[Lulupab]

elves living longer was rectoned and is generally inconsitent on their age rate

 

I wasn't even comparing elves to humans. But the Dalish (without human contact) to city elves (constant human contact) which is what elves think took their immortality away.

[raging_monkey]

I wasn't even comparing elves to humans. But the Dalish (without human contact) to city elves (constant human contact) which is what elves think took their immortality away.

its still a little muddy to me, lulu hopfully they clarify it in DAI

[Lulupab]

its still a little muddy to me, lulu hopfully they clarify it in DAI

 

Agreed, I hope they do that in DA:I.

[raging_monkey]

Agreed, I hope they do that in DA:I.

only fair right lol

[Jedi Master of Orion]

As a player I seriously doubt the elves were immortal in the same way the codex describes, but we still don't have any new conclusive information about them. The elven dreamers we saw in TME who had their throats slashed by servants would have been around at the time of the Fall of Arlathan. By then elves would have been mortal, even if they once were immortal.

 

The other thing the Masked Empire made clear is the diverse array of relationships both humans and city elves have with Dalish elves. In the games we've seen city elves who show the Dalish reverence or consider them savages who aren't true elves. In Val Royeaux, Briala muses that if the elves knew Felessan was Dalish they would either fall to their knees or draw their sword. When Celene reaches the village that her allies destroyed, her party wonders whether they constantly trade with or fight with Dalish. It could be either.

 

It also referenced the common translation of "shemlen" as "quick ones," so either this is a mistake or the elven language is much less condescending than people like to say it is and "quick children" is a more literal translation or something.

 

 

Turns out Tevinter taking down Arlathan was actually considered a MERCY compared to what their own rulers were doing to the elven underclass....

 

This is an example of when a point becomes so exaggerated that it become patently false.

[raging_monkey]

Languages often have dual meaning literals on elvish seem harsh but contexually are quiye pleasent

[animedreamer]

What's this about Dalish treating City Elves like crap? Outside of calling them Flat Ears to which they give a reason i don't see this mistreatment? Also calling them "Elvhen no more" can be taken out of text, as the Dalish welcome any City Elf who wishes to rejoin their people, they also have a promise to share with those who have forgotten all the lore they have forgotten when the Elves have a homeland again, and even go as far as saying the City Elves could probably help them understand the humans.. so again I don't see this Dalish looking down on City Elves thing, as oppose to being miffed at the notion they have kin who would live under human rule.

[Master Warder Z_]

 they also have a promise to share with those who have forgotten

 

Sounds similar to Qunari Reeducation.