I dunno, look at the situation in Kirkwall. The elves are suffering massive losses to Qunari conversion and the Qunari aren't even evangelizing.
The two elves who murdered their sisters' rapist kind of spell it out for me.
The Qunari's willingness to stand up for you and accept you is a pretty big deal.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think... or I'd guess.. that the inclination for "uniformity" and order is a strong desire for many people. The Qun is just an extreme version of what really goes on in the human mind at times. The desire to bring all deformities and chaos under control and mobilize humanity under one banner.
Personally, I lean towards disorder, but I see this in other people often. The Qunari are just a crazy fictionalized version of it.
What did they fail to achieve?
The Chantry established a big followers.
The Qun established a big followers.
Both groups refused to convert and brother Burkel died while demonstrating a peaceful demonstration.
Note that the magnitude is different. From the sound of it, the Qun forcibly introduce as well as possibly brainwashed people into believing while Burkel is more like appealing to a person's faith. You're comparing a crusade with the missionary, but that's besides the point here, the point is that those that they reach with their new ideology, they both converted because they found something lacking in their old belief system. Those who are adamant about their belief wouldn't change their belief no matter what regardless of whether it's peaceful conversion or forceful conversion. Those who claimed to be devout could very well be a believer for the sake of believe, They have to believe in it because they have nothing else to turn to, if a new ideal was introduced, some of those devotion could very well switch targets. All I'm saying is sometimes, it's not about how good or bad a certain beliefs are, it's about understanding the psychology and what a person turn to religion or a new ideology. For a short real life example, some of the members of Heaven's Gates cult was not clueless people who were tricked into it, some of the were professionals and well educated, There were a variety of reasons why they turn to a cult, but they weren't being forced into it, those that were forced into it by their loved ones ran away, Those that stay stayed because they found someone in it that they didn't find in their daily life. There are also stories of Americans convert to extremists and homegrown terrorists. In some of these cases, it's not about the morality or being force into anything, it's about whether a person can identify with that idea which could very turn into their new purpose in life.
The difference is that where the Chantry tried to change the beliefs of Orzammar, they were rebuked.
No, they weren't.
Why do some people agree with Communism? National Socialism? Socialism? Feudalism, Every system that has been invented and named since the dawn of man?
Because for every ideology, every code, belief system or creed there are followers.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Why do some people agree with Communism? National Socialism? Socialism? Feudalism, Every system that has been invented and named since the dawn of man?
Because for every ideology, every code, belief system or creed there are followers.
Not many people actually agree with those over time though. Historically, they have a way of centralizing power too much and it becomes all top down (and then those on the bottom eventually complain).
No, they weren't.
He meant to write: When the Chantry allowed a dwarf into their religion, and when he came home to spread it, the nobles had him murdered.
No, they weren't.
Well, from a non-magic user POV, it's a nice society (even though we have the thing of the fixed roles). If you are a mage, you must be drunk or delusional to follow it.
The murder of the sister's rapist is a very convenient way out of it. Not to mention a tired trope. Yet another rape as a routine plot device. Got nothing original? Just make someone rape a woman, that way you instantly have a villain and a hero, easiest set up ever. I'm not even going to say it's sexist, it's booooooooring. To me it looks they couldn't make the qunari look ambiguous by their actions - by seeing them do things in the game. Instead they set up a scene with all the actors standing there reciting expository dialogue. And they picked the easiest set up ever.
The ketojan quest was a lot better I think. They should have done something in that style to let us players realize how the qunari are. For example, instead of having the Arishok explain the Qun to the audience Hawke, let him convert half of Kirkwall. Let the qunari conquer Darktown and turn it into a better place, feeding the hungry and making them work as one (noone in Kirkwall cares about that place anyway, so not a lot of opposition). For hungry people with no time for philosophical considerations of liberty and private property (not least because they don't own anything), the Qun offers a direct short term way out. That way you get the chance to see what the qun looks like and you're setting up the moral ambiguity at the same time.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think that's less a "rebuke" of Brother Berkel specifically and more to do with the fact that the dwarves simply don't know how to manage ANY problem. lol. Killing people in the streets is a way of life.
Not many people actually agree with those over time though.
And at their peak millions and millions followed them.
Time changes all things, nothing is inverted and stilled and thus immune to time.
Do you think that in the early twenties and thirties that people thought National Socialism was going anywhere?
It had followers and adherents all over the planet and had a cult following numbering in the tens of millions.
Same to Communism in the forties and fifties?
I could apply modern western ideologies if you like; Do you think they will exist a century from now?
Two centuries from now?
The murder of the sister's rapist is a very convenient way out of it. Not to mention a tired trope. Yet another rape as a routine plot device. Got nothing original? Just make someone rape a woman, that way you instantly have a villain and a hero, easiest set up ever. I'm not even going to say it's sexist, it's booooooooring. To me it looks they couldn't make the qunari look ambiguous by their actions - by seeing them do things in the game. Instead they set up a scene with all the actors standing there reciting expository dialogue. And they picked the easiest set up ever.
The ketojan quest was a lot better I think. They should have done something in that style to let us players realize how the qunari are. For example, instead of having the Arishok explain the Qun to
the audienceHawke, let him convert half of Kirkwall. Let the qunari conquer Darktown and turn it into a better place, feeding the hungry and making them work as one. For hungry people with no time for philosophical considerations of liberty and private property (not least because they don't own anything), the Qun offers a direct short term way out. That way you get the chance to see what the qun looks like and don't need ot have it explained to you and you're setting up the moral ambiguity at the same time.
If I never have to see another rape plot device again, it'll be too soon.
The plot would have worked fine if the guardsman had just killed the elf because he thought she was acting suspicious.
More topical too.
:-)
But the fact the Qunari see elves as people while the guard doesn't is a very clear use of race-relations that I approve of.
I imagine this is far from the first rumor they've followed up on.
By this time, the Arishok and his people have been subject to hate-crimes, acts of terrorism, and attempts to hang converts.
If you had the military force to steamroll Kirkwall's citizens.
Well, would you have held back as long as he did?
Part of why people like the Arishok is he shows remarkable-remarkable restraint.
I don't think that anyone jerked his knee and fed him misinformation to the point he got fed up with it. Also I doubt he thinks himself too good for following the promising rumors himself, especially when Tevinters are involved. That would make him either an idiot or overestimating his warriors that had many shortcomings all these years.
I don't like him for the restraint. I like him for his devotion. The same reason I respect the Qun. The devotion to the cause, his pride and the patience that would make a lesser man crazy. And pretty much the reason I think he became a joke the moment he decided to attack Kirkwall when his true prize had just revealed itself. He let his hate consume him. He took the low path. He is the goddamn Arishok. Preaching to a bunch of idiot nobles isn't his job description.
If he wanted to raze the city, he should've done it 4 years ago, when he was sure that the book was there and he had all his warriors relatively fresh. Everything else is just unnecessary drama. Dunno, perhaps I think more of him than I should
This sounds like someone who isn't considering that, in America, no one is stopping anyone from being successful....
Come now, we are all adults, we KNOW this isn't true..
Guest_StreetMagic_*
And at their peak millions and millions followed them.
Time changes all things, nothing is inverted and stilled and thus immune to time.
Do you think that in the early twenties and thirties that people thought National Socialism was going anywhere?
It had followers and adherents all over the planet and had a cult following numbering in the tens of millions.
Same to Communism in the forties and fifties?
I could apply modern western ideologies if you like; Do you think they will exist a century from now?
Two centuries from now?
I'm not talking about "time". I'm talking specifically about the nature of centralizing power. People don't even have a say-so. It's barely an improvement over living in Ancient Egypt or medieval China, where you served a God-Emperor and your only purpose or "personality" was to be a obedient laborer. A tool. The only reason why it's slightly better is because more people are allowed to live better in that "center" (instead of just the Emperor).
.
3. Freedom is the most important quality and people will always rebel against it even if they're starving.
Starving people will do almost anything to survive. Including "convert" to an alien religion they almost certainly don't fully understand.
But, not everyone in Chantry controlled lands is starving. Not even peasants in Orlais can be said to be starving on a mass scale. Poor? Hell yeah. often living in uncomfortable conditions without medical care? Sure. But that's all a far cry from starving. You make out living in human lands to be ground scale of the Apocalypse. The truth is that it's a Medeval society, and white-washed fantasy version of it at that. Not everyone living in those conditions is going to automatically assume the Qun is awesome. Of those that do, they see the food and shelter. I imagine ten, or even five, years living under the Qun's demands would give them a different perspective.
To say nothing of those who were never given a choice in the matter.
Starving people will do almost anything to survive. Including "convert" to an alien religion they almost certainly don't fully understand.
But, not everyone in Chantry controlled lands is starving. Not even peasants in Orlais can be said to be starving on a mass scale. Poor? Hell yeah. often living in uncomfortable conditions without medical care? Sure. But that's all a far cry from starving. You make out living in human lands to be ground scale of the Apocalypse. The truth is that it's a Medeval society, and white-washed fantasy version of it at that. Not everyone living in those conditions is going to automatically assume the Qun is awesome. Of those that do, they see the food and shelter. I imagine ten, or even five, years living under the Qun's demands would give them a different perspective.
To say nothing of those who were never given a choice in the matter.
The question I ask then is.
1. Do you see it as possible that anyone would follow the Qun knowingly and willingly, five, ten years later?
2. If not, is that a flaw of bad writing or are we meant to assume the Qun is followed by irrational people?
Guest_StreetMagic_*
All of these Dragon Age societies suck about equally to me.
Except the Dalish. lol. And I don't mean that to sound pro-Elf. It's just that I know that I could laze about all day in the woods as a Dalish. Sounds nice.
I'm not talking about "time". I'm talking specifically about the nature of centralizing power. People don't even have a say-so. It's barely an improvement over living in Ancient Egypt or medieval China, where you served a God-Emperor and your only purpose or "personality" was to be a obedient laborer. A tool. The only reason why it's slightly better is because more people are allowed to live better in that "center" (instead of just the Emperor).
*Shrug* Dissatisfaction comes from having alternate notions of how to live life, govern a country and alike, which are they themselves a product of their era.
If there is no other way to live life, you would be amazed by how long it can be accepted.
All of these Dragon Age societies suck about equally to me.
Except the Dalish. lol. And I don't mean that to sound pro-Elf. It's just that I know that I could laze about all day in the woods as a Dalish. Sounds nice.
Damn pseudo-Quarians!
Guest_StreetMagic_*
*Shrug* Dissatisfaction comes from having alternate notions of how to live life, govern a country and alike, which are they themselves a product of their era.
If there is no other way to live life, you would be amazed by how long it can be accepted.
That much is true. I agree. They don't even know better in that case. Ignorance is bliss and all that.
I guess I'm looking at it more though from an abstract point of view of all of those people failing to meet their true potential. And only being allowed to define themselves more will they find that.
Come now, we are all adults, we KNOW this isn't true..
actually it is true. Anyone can be successful. It's about if you're going to get off your ass and do it, or cry about people not pulling you along. Every race and gender has people who have been successful. Are the challenges the same? No. Are there people who will help others and not you? Yes in all races and genders.
You're either going to do it. Period. Or you're not. That's the reality. And there are a lot of talentless idiots that are rich as well. It can and is done.
All of these Dragon Age societies suck about equally to me.
Except the Dalish. lol. And I don't mean that to sound pro-Elf. It's just that I know that I could laze about all day in the woods as a Dalish. Sounds nice.
Yeah... You'd probably end up starving to death... There is no such thing as a lazy hunter/gatherer.
actually it is true. Anyone can be successful. It's about if you're going to get off your ass and do it. Or cry about people not pulling you along. Every race and gender has people who have been successful. Are the challenges the same? No. Are there people who will help others and not you? Yes in all races and genders.
You're either going to do it. Period. Or you're not. That's the reality. And there are a lot of talentless idiots that are rich as well. It can and is done.
I think you have a very erroneous view about America, my friend. I say that as a man who loves his nation.
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