Guest_StreetMagic_*
The Qun says you will do just fine without casual and weekly dose of sex
I choose to believe it
It doesn't matter if you choose or not in the Qun. That's kind of the point. They have assigned a de facto "nature" to all things. This and this and this and that should be this way and nothing else. To try something else is akin to "not being". You do not choose. You simply be (according to what they say).
Meaning exists only if we give it to things, it requires a conscience, a soul, a heart. Something bare matter lacksNo, I don't mean pretty feelings. Don't make me out to some vapid New Age person or something. Please
I was talking about a sense of meaning in discovery. From the onset of life until now, discovery and finding context is a basic "need". We keep insisting on it. And developing means to discover further. I only wonder why that is. Life seems to wanrt more than consume energy or reproduce.
You chooseIt doesn't matter if you choose or not in the Qun. That's kind of the point. They have assigned a de facto "nature" to all things. This and this and this and that should be this way and nothing else. To try something else is akin to "not being". You do not choose. You simply be (according to what they say).
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Meaning exists only if we give it to things, it requires a conscience, a soul, a heart. Something bare matter lacks
Consumption and reproduction are basis concepts, everything else is optional
When the first living cells appeared they had no goal of " discovering" anything, no mind, no conscience, just a program to duplicate and survive
How do you know that? I merely wonder of the possibility. You are quite matter of fact about it.
Honest question. If there is a truth to be had here, I'll concede. I think any object in a space wants to know it's place in it.
edit: By object, I mean living object btw.
Basic common sense and logic. Plus scienceHow do you know that? I merely wonder of the possibility. You are quite matter of fact about it.
Honest question. If there is a truth to be had here, I'll concede. I think any object in a space wants to know it's place in it.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Basic common sense and logic. Plus science
Sure, meteors only want to be part of planets they crash in. I asked them myself, true story
They also like opera and musicals
I'm not talking about spiritual part of life, only about a physical one so, eh, cut all this "life wants more" talk unless you can prove that the life is a living thinking being with actual needs, interests and opinion or that all living being have a hive mind
Err.. I edited almost right away. I meant living objects.
Not meteors and asteroids.
lol.. Like I said, I'm not some New Ager. Try not to dispute me from that standpoint. I'm talking about life.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
OK, here's an example of "life wants more". The development of eyes. Why did that come about? First, some lifeforms might've been attracted to light as a source of energy, but soon enough, it focused into a organ that could help them navigate. Why did they need to do that, if energy is the only concern?
I admit, there have been some eye-raising comments this thread.
1. America is the land of opportunity where everyone can achieve success if they work at it.
2. Islam is the religion of conversion by force where everyone wants to destroy you if you don't believe as they do. Ignoring it's the largest religion in the world now (my wife didn't even realize most Muslims weren't from the Middle East but Asia).
3. Freedom is the most important quality and people will always rebel against it even if they're starving.
A lot of very privileged non-true statements here.
1) It is partially true. I lived in Murica for four years, I am from Southeast Asia and I was able to get jobs that I wanted and the stuff I wanted. I had to work my arse off for it though.
2) Islam is a religion of submission and conversion by force. In that sense people are partially right. Islam is also the fastest growing religion, not due to conversion but Muslims simply breed a lot. Yeah that is crude and I am a Southeast Asian. I have lived in Malaysia and Indonesia. The culture in such places kowtow to the Muslims ones, usurp the non Muslim ones in many instances and many Muslims enjoy special benefits. There is no freedom to critically examine Islam, especially in Asia or your risk being branded a racist even though Islam is a belief system which means it is a set of ideas, not a race, which makes people criticizing it analytic and not racist.
3) Freedom is the most important quality to have for me personally but to the average human, it isn't. The average human is concerned with just working, bringing decent food to the table and enjoying some fruits of their labor. In terms of average humans, give them good economy and they won't bother with anything else.
The whole "check your privilege !" and "privilege this, privilege that" is a stupid and irrational thing. All it does is stifle discussion, encourage political correctness, forces people to self censor and hinder the flow of ideas. I prefer people to be crude and make their point as opposed to being polite or "checking their privileges" when talking.
Most of us, most groups in the world are almost always partially right about something. Some come close to the factual, to the reality but most are half-truths.
I think it can all be summed up for the same reasons as to why we might like villains a lot and their characterization. Given that good and evil are relative to everyone, I think it's safe to say that there might be some neat parts to the Qun that intrigues some.
The Qun says you will do just fine without casual and weekly dose of sex
I choose to believe it
Spoken like someone like someone who really wants to dictate other people's values to them.
Sex is not a basic need, you won't die without sex, your body won't become ill without it hence no one is entitled to having sex. It's a privilege, not a right
So are all the "benefits" of the Qun over other societies. You won't die if your social status is not equal, nor will you die if your race hinders your advancement.
Life is not worth living if all you are afforded is what you need to survive.
For better adaptation, duh. Environment constantly change, living beings try to adapt for better chances of survival hence not all species have eyes, only those who need themOK, here's an example of "life wants more". The development of eyes. Why did that come about? First, some lifeforms might've been attracted to light as a source of energy, but soon enough, it focused into a organ that could help them navigate. Why did they need to do that, if energy is the only concern?
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I think it's true that people don't necessarily want "freedom". History attests to that.
That said, history also rewards free thinking. If individual people don't want it, it could still be argued that society as a whole does. I think it's the only way where ideas can truly incubate. And how the world progresses.
Your nickname kinda implies you do follow dictatorsSpoken like someone like someone who really wants to dictate other people's values to them.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
For better adaptation, duh. Environment constantly change, living beings try to adapt for better chances of survival hence not all species have eyes, only those who need them
And even then no species adapts perfectly hence I don't believe in evolution's flawlessness. It makes pretty dumb mistakes sometimes
You're talking about the arms race once the cat (or eyeball) was out of the bag. I'm just concerned about the first cause.
Being an elf or poor in nonqunari society makes your chances of survival or nonshitty living pretty slimSo are all the "benefits" of the Qun over other societies. You won't die if your social status is not equal, nor will you die if your race hinders your advancement.
Life is not worth living if all you are afforded is what you need to survive.
Well he's not an idiot, he should understand he can't just sit in a city and break it's laws without conflict. He did it on purpose because he was a gigantic baby, lol.
I just don't understand how people romanticize him and the Qun so much when they're both so fundamentally flawed.
For the same reason people romanticize and glorify Andrastianism, the White Chantry, Tevinter Magocracy, Imperial Chantry, Dalish Elves, etc.
For the same reason people romanticize and glorify Marxism, Confucianism, any other philosophy of your choosing, any religion of your choosing, any race culture of your choosing, etc.
The reality is that most people dislike freedom and dislike individualists. Most people are tribal and communitarian / collectivist in nature. Usually, people trade one tribe or group for another instead of being free individuals. Usually, people live their lives in binaries.
Most people like freedom and individuality as an idea, not as something that should be practiced. See, unlike the bullcrap that we hear bandied about, being free and being and individual is not easy. Not even remotely. You have responsibilities as a free individual, most of the personal responsibilities that must be self enforced. You need to self motivate to exist and continue existing. You need to self define your purpose and your role on your own terms.
There is also the fact that there is no true free will and no true equality. We are what we are. As much as we like to deny it, we are dependent on our phenotypes and genotypes, biological factors that we cannot change and are never equal (unless genetic engineering and human augmentation progress to the point that altering these things are possible).
Difficult tasks that require a strong mind, an open mind, a rational mind and an intelligent mind. The costs of freedom is high. It is not a cost that everyone wants to or is willing to pay.
Look around you. You see phrases like "freedom of speech" bandied about and yet there is censorship and hatred when someone says something that is deemed offensive or politically incorrect or does not align with a particular collective's view.
You see phrases like "right of a man to live his life on his own terms" bandied about and yet there is social scorn if a man decides to live his life in a way that does not conform to a certain collective's view of reality.
To be free, one has to be willing to break off the shackles of tribalism and be willing to accept things like personal accountability, personal agency and personal effort. To be free, one has to not get easily offended at the emotional. To be free, one has to simultaneously accept reality and be capable to defining themselves on their own terms within that reality.
Many people cannot do this, many people are incapable of doing this, many people dislike doing this and many people fear doing this (many are afraid of being alone, of solitude, of solitary life and you want these people to be pro-freedom and pro-individualists ? Keep dreaming). So they stick to or cluster around or hop about or become a fundamentalist of tribes.
Hence we see blatant glorification of the Qun, the Templars, etc on BSN.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Qunari are strict, but just
That I can agree with at least.
Adaptation it is. First eyeballs were very simple but with new species adapting to this way they became much more complex and effective and also different depending on the environmentYou're talking about the arms race once the cat (or eyeball) was out of the bag. I'm just concerned about the first cause.
Good read though I disagree that we are not equal. We're different, equality doesn't mean we have to be the sameFor the same reason people romanticize and glorify Andrastianism, the White Chantry, Tevinter Magocracy, Imperial Chantry, Dalish Elves, etc.
For the same reason people romanticize and glorify Marxism, Confucianism, any other philosophy of your choosing, any religion of your choosing, any race culture of your choosing, etc.
The reality is that most people dislike freedom and dislike individualists. Most people are tribal and communitarian / collectivist in nature. Usually, people trade one tribe or group for another instead of being free individuals. Usually, people live their lives in binaries.
Most people like freedom and individuality as an idea, not as something that should be practiced. See, unlike the bullcrap that we hear bandied about, being free and being and individual is not easy. Not even remotely. You have responsibilities as a free individual, most of the personal responsibilities that must be self enforced. You need to self motivate to exist and continue existing. You need to self define your purpose and your role on your own terms.
There is also the fact that there is no true free will and no true equality. We are what we are. As much as we like to deny it, we are dependent on our phenotypes and genotypes, biological factors that we cannot change and are never equal (unless genetic engineering and human augmentation progress to the point that altering these things are possible).
Difficult tasks that require a strong mind, an open mind, a rational mind and an intelligent mind. The costs of freedom is high. It is not a cost that everyone wants to or is willing to pay.
Look around you. You see phrases like "freedom of speech" bandied about and yet there is censorship and hatred when someone says something that is deemed offensive or politically incorrect or does not align with a particular collective's view.
You see phrases like "right of a man to live his life on his own terms" bandied about and yet there is social scorn if a man decides to live his life in a way that does not conform to a certain collective's view of reality.
To be free, one has to be willing to break off the shackles of tribalism and be willing to accept things like personal accountability, personal agency and personal effort. To be free, one has to not get easily offended at the emotional. To be free, one has to simultaneously accept reality and be capable to defining themselves on their own terms within that reality.
Many people cannot do this, many people are incapable of doing this, many people dislike doing this and many people fear doing this (many are afraid of being alone, of solitude, of solitary life and you want these people to be pro-freedom and pro-individualists ? Keep dreaming). So they stick to or cluster around or hop about or become a fundamentalist of tribes.
Hence we see blatant glorification of the Qun, the Templars, etc on BSN.
OK, here's an example of "life wants more". The development of eyes. Why did that come about? First, some lifeforms might've been attracted to light as a source of energy, but soon enough, it focused into a organ that could help them navigate. Why did they need to do that, if energy is the only concern?
I'm certain an evolutionary biologist would say that it was for survival purposes...probably because it or some other organism discovered it was easier to "steal" that energy from the competition either by getting to the food source first or turning the competition into the food source. Being able to see would provide a significant advantage within a primitive ecosystem. Consciousness and instinct are not the same thing.
In general I would say science and ideology should be kept separate, as one operates on the basis of fact while the latter is a matter of faith.
The Qun reminds me of Plato's Republic: In theory it sounds great, but in reality such could never be put into practice at a macro level. Still, from a RP perspective I would love to play a Qunari zealot "enlightening" the people of Thedas (perhaps repeatedly.)
I don't believe that modern, real XD people truly and honestly agree with the Qun. They can respect the idea, the ideology - sure.
I, for example, find the Qun quite interesting. Another take on the utopian, ideological socialism - something that was never, and never will be our (human) reality.
(As for my choices in-game: My Warden respected Sten and the Qun. At the end of the game he felt he didn't understand their philosophy sufficiently. I, the good player that i am, allowed him to follow Sten home and learn more about that fascinating society.)
I apologize for any grammar mistakes. I am no native to this language.
Why would people agree with the Qun? I think the argument answers that in itself; people can agree with it because they are free-thinking individuals that hold their own values and ideas that may just coincide with that of the Qun. Its not giving up freedom of thought it just happens to be moving towards that one thing/society/religion that reflects your way of thinking. For example I live in a country where gun-control is tighter than other places of the world so the concept of having a firearm is unsettling to me but in other places of the world the concept of not at least have the option to own is unsettling; it does not coincide with my way of thinking but does not make it wrong.
Its the eternal struggle of order vs chaos; the Qun and the people who seems to look upon it favourably seem more inclined towards order though the Qun may lean more than little too heavily in that direction. Also keep in mind that it is a work of fiction and having people agree with the Qun is no more damaging than having people agree with the Force or the Prime Directive or the idea that Vampires sparkle in the daylight.
-D-
People keep using that word. "Freedom". I don't think it means what they think it means...
@Ishten: Incidentals out of the way - your avatar is the first elf I've ever found sexy - so, there's that.
Anyway, I agree with a great deal of what you're saying, but I find it largely philosophical and idealized in itself. As you state, humans actually prefer tribalism. We form groups ALL the time - and all those groups are prone to violence when their tribe is in danger.
It is largely why I rage against people who ONLY focus on religion. From something so small as a sports team to something vast like a nation - all make-believe groups are protected fiercely by their constituents. All followers are blind. The vast majority of humans follow "something".
To me - the truest form of freedom would be hell on earth. If people wanted to take, they would take. If people wanted to destroy, they would destroy. A concept of a universal sanctioned "freedom" (wherein all people live according to their own measure) is, ultimately, preposterous.
I think it is more important to create a tribe that maximizes healthy freedom while providing ground rules that are enforced against those unwilling, or incapable, of following them (hence we have religions, nations, etc.) than it is to emancipate the human race from the need of such things (only because I find the human race to be woefully lacking in any such ability to do so).
"I have gained this from philosphy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." - Aristotle.
The Qunari, it would seem, have never thought in this manner or are simply offensively pragmatic in their view. Knowing that sapient creatures are too stupid to simply follow the law of their own volition (my opinion) - they instead have decided that sapient creatures will never cure themselves and "do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law".
I mean - let's look at the internet. People spewing idiocy about moral relativism as an excuse to hurt others. If given freedom, humans devolve into base animals clawing and biting for their own greed.
I admire the Qunari simply because they're not interested in "your" bullshit and have decided that their tribe must succeed since individually all sapient creatures fail.
This is not true of course. Many sapient creatures (on our planet, just humans) simply become irrelevant. They live, they die, they add themselves to the soil (eventually - those crates people put themselves in are a bit unnatural). But a small handful actually liberate themselves from the masses - and I admire them greatly.
The question becomes - are those few individuals enough to encourage the entire race (or all races in Thedas) to receive the freedom enlightened people can live by - without obtaining any form of real enlightenment themselves?
The Qun answers with a resounding: "NO".
I don't agree with them, but a part of me totally understands their decision.
Retour en haut