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[Bayonet Hipshot]

*snip*

 

The elf was an edit from this marvellous work by GerryArthur of DeviantART :- http://gerryarthur.d...ocess-480236665

 

Good points overall. 

 

The human ape is a social animal that is driven by its biological drives which forms the basis for culture and it naturally forms hierarchies which leads to tribes. This is just a reality. 

 

Apple fanboys, Footbool Club Fans,  Templar Hard Core Supporters, etc are tribes of their own as well. They are just not generally acknowledged on the same level as race and religion.  

 

I have some formal education in history, anthropology, evolution, sciences and philosophy. As such, I can see that human tribes are more than just religious cults.

 

Freedom without a rational mind would be hell on Earth. Freedom and individualism should come with personal accountability, personal identity, personal motivation and an analytical mind. 

 

As such in order for people to be free without inflicting any unnecessary harm, they need to have an understanding of logic, reason, scientific method, empirical philosophy, at the very least undergraduate level comprehension of the sciences and history. 

 

Problem is not everyone has access to such level of education and information.

 

The issue I have with Qunari is that they will force their beliefs on me even though I have self actualized my own identity, I have a sense of personal responsibility and as such can be free and be an individualist. 

 

If there is a clause in the Qun that states that outsiders who has attained certain ranks like a Basalit-an (which Hawke can achieve) or even an Ashkaari (which the Sten considers the Warden if you find Asala for him and have a high approval ) should be left alone by the Qun to live their lives....Then I have no problem with the Qun....

 

Thing is, so far we have no evidence that the Qun will leave the individuals who have proven themselves worthy, alone.

[Medhia_Nox]

Double Post

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ishten:  It always comes down to "free will" I suppose.  Not so much in the truest nature, as I know many who would argue that free will is, in itself, a fantasy - but rather in the illusion of such (which I will assert is equally, if not more, important). 

 

Stealing isn't wrong because a man will go to hell - it is wrong because it deprives another human being of 1) the choice of being stolen from 2) the right to refute the will of "other".  The same goes for all those "sins" and commandments labelled off in many world religions and philosophies. 

 

Conversion - the outright theft of free will, which moral relativists absolutely RAGE against (while supporting all manner of other forms of theft as "relative") - is the great flaw in the Qun (and so many religions, philosophies and ethnicities)  That the Qun is a religion is irrelevant - we (America) force not only democracy, but capitalism on the world (that they may be healthier forms of governance and commerce than any other is not relevant) - ethnic groups throughout Africa try to wipe out their fellows.  "God" is not needed for tribal conflict.  Heck... the Nika riots were over sports teams taken WAY too far (and politicized).

 

As an aside, I'd even argue that the Tribe of Science is not free from this.  The Age of Enlightenment was terrifyingly blood as the "Better civilized man" committed wholesale slaughter across six continents in their efforts to civilize the world.  The Industrial Age found the grinding of the human being into more meat for the machines.

 

But I digress. 

 

I suppose my "point" (sorry, just enjoying thinking in this train of thought) is that the Qunari don't need to be halted because their philosophy is any more wrong than another... but because of their disregard for the decision of others to refute it.  

 

The nature of conversion is invasive - which is, in nature, naturally destructive to anything but the invasive species.  This requires us to either 1) be consumed or 2) adapt to outlast, outwit or overcome the invasive species. 

 

But this does not demonize them anymore than Gaspard for wanting to invade Ferelden - or if Tevinter marched on The Free Marches - or, of course, the Templars (who are not wrong because of their philosophy - mages ARE a danger - but are wrong because they have no interest in co-operating with the mages in forming a proper system). 

 

Anyway - WAY too much rambling senselessly. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Pretty vague. Who are these people and what is your definition?

 

I mean, come on.. just to stimulate discussion at least, make a longer post than that.

For isntance when people claim that "'MURICA!" is the land of freedom... Sure.. If you define freedom by your right to vote, I guess? Because that is pretty much the only "freedom" you have.

 

The Qunari gives up on no more freedoms, than any of us do to be part of ANY society. They just give up different than what we are used to.

 

Now having grown up in the western world (most of us anyway), we are bred to hold certain valus dear to our heart, and the very concept of these values not being venerated might seem appalling to some (equality, legal representation, democracy, etc. etc.), but these values are no more "natural" than the Qunari's.

 

Freedom by its very definition is anarchy. The absence of law and order. Chaos. That is freedom in its pure form. Certaily not what the stars and stripes tries to enforce on the world.

[cjones91]

The Qun is appealing to some because it provides a sense of purpose.Anybody can join whether they are rich or down on their luck.

[Lilaeth]

 

A peasant in Thedas may never be a noble...

 

Loghain managed it - that would never have happened under the Qun.

[Willowhugger]

If you think about it, a lot of Ferelden's history has stories like this. People rising from nothing. Andraste and Calenhad. And even Flemeth, if you want to count her. lol

 

Flemeth didn't have much to say about socio-economics but I did appreciate her saying this to "Loghain killed the King!"

"You say that like he's the first to get his crown that way."

[Wulfram]

 

The Qunari gives up on no more freedoms, than any of us do to be part of ANY society. They just give up different than what we are used to.

 

OK, tell me a freedom that the Qunari possess that we do not?

[Willowhugger]

OK, tell me a freedom that the Qunari possess that we do not?

 

Freedom from those filthy-filthy mages.

[Keroko]

OK, tell me a freedom that the Qunari possess that we do not?

Guaranteed and stable employment?

[Drasanil]

Guaranteed and stable employment?

 

How is that a freedom?

[EmperorSahlertz]

OK, tell me a freedom that the Qunari possess that we do not?

Freedom from uncertainty.

[AlexiaRevan]

I think they see them as a better alternative to the chantry who are religious . I mean if you compare them both , the chantry peoples pray to their God . The Qun (maybe wrong my knowledge is very limited)...make the Qun as an entity . You are the Qun , everyone is the Qun yada yada . So if I make an exemple of a weapon : The chantry pray to the weapon and use it to punish but in the end rever it as a holy object above them . While the Qun....become the weapon so much...there is no more the person . and if you rever the weapon..you rever it and is equal not something above you doing the bossing . 

 

At least thats how I see it . Not saying thats how it is , but how I see it . I'm getting this mostly from how many peoples use the Qun threath as a reason for the chantry and templar system to exist . I think they are both the opposite of each others but also very similar . They are both zealot in their own way . Just that the Qun come off more like samurai I guess . 

[Keroko]

Uncertainty is good. It leads to curiosity or imagination. We ask or pose questions when we do not know.
 
The worst thing to do in uncertainty is simply let someone tell you everything to know.
 
My 2c. I'm not trying to change your mind Ask yourself

You'll excuse me is the uncertainty of whether or not I'm going to starve today is an uncertainty I would like to avoid.

Uncertainty about that tends to lead to either death or turning to theft.

[Helios969]

They aren't, but I have yet to have it explained to me why some beings are negated consciousness, even if they are highly instinctual. How is that even known?

 

It's strange to me that creatures could be aware of all kinds of things, but not themselves or their relation to those things. No sense of their self in context. Just instinct, and no identity.

 

Well I'm not equiped to explain since I do not study such things, but I imagine those that do have devised experiments and established benchmarks to determine such (of which I would not give absolute credence BTW.)  How and where that distinction is made I do not know.

 

Take ants (maybe a good parallel to the Qunari;) they behave in a highly organized fashion.  Just watching them operate one would think they had some semblence of awareness; displaying intelligence and cooperation, but they are really just following 3-4 hardwired commands by reacting to pheromones from the queen or fellow worker ants all in the quest for more food.  Ants are all instinct.

[Keroko]

In that comparison, however, it's important to remember that the Qun does not stifle creativity (as long as it within one's assigned profession). Artists exist in qunari society (Sten himself has a great appreciation for artists) and the qunari have maintained a technological superiority over the other cultures of Thedas, showing that their engineers have complete freedom in their work.

[Merc Mama]

In my opinion it was a purpose. For a direction-less life, a way out for people with no drive to find their own way. 

And then others were just raised into it, which like other major religions around the world, shows how it's easy to hook them like that especially when it's all one has ever known. 

So like someone listed above, it is a lot like a cult, but no mass suicide cause everyone is useful till they disobey. :c

[PhroXenGold]

If you think about it, a lot of Ferelden's history has stories like this. People rising from nothing. Andraste and Calenhad. And even Flemeth, if you want to count her. lol

 

It's much like the "American dream". The vast vast vast majority of people will never rise above their origins. They are tied by the backgrounds and upbringing to a life of crap. But every now and then someone makes it out of that crap. And they're held up as an ideal for the rest. Because, if the rest have hope of improving themsleves, if they can dream of a better life, if the believe they can become more than they are, even if the chances of them doing so are very small, they won't object so much to the crap they have. It's a pretty effective way of controlling the masses.

[Xilizhra]

You'll excuse me is the uncertainty of whether or not I'm going to starve today is an uncertainty I would like to avoid.

Uncertainty about that tends to lead to either death or turning to theft.

Do we know that all qunari are free from that?

 

 

In that comparison, however, it's important to remember that the Qun does not stifle creativity (as long as it within one's assigned profession). Artists exist in qunari society (Sten himself has a great appreciation for artists) and the qunari have maintained a technological superiority over the other cultures of Thedas, showing that their engineers have complete freedom in their work.

It does, however, stifle independent or questioning thought.