Guest_StreetMagic_*
Whether you're an individualist or not, societies will dramatically advance when there's individualism. It doesn't matter if the Qunari themselves remain stable -- some other nation with more freedoms would eventually surpass them. Liberties give birth to a lot of crap to be sure - not everyone has a good idea. But at the same time, this is how science and industry flourish.
Of course, this isn't the real world or anything. Fantasy worlds tend to evolve differently (or remain static).
I'm not sure its as much agreeing with the Qun as it is disagreeing with the Chantry in some cases.
Personally I don't agree with the Qun; mind you I don't entirely agree with the Chantry either or the Dalish and I'll be playing as a Dalish elf in DAI. However, I can see why the Qun appeal to both players and people within the game world. If you are not nobility in Thedas you have a pretty lousy time of it; if you are a city elf doubly so. Life tends to be short, brutish and cruel. You are often only one step away from starving and the nobility use you as they please. Justice for a city elf seems virtually non-existent.
Then along come agents from a nation run by grey skinned giants. They speak of a philosophy where everyone is equal. Justice is applied to all. Everyone works for the benefit of society as a whole and resources are shared equally among you. You have a set role in life as determined by your skills and natural talents and it is these that limit your progress in society, not your race or class of birth. The Qun decide who your mate should be; so do the elders of the alienage. Is it any wonder they have so many converts/agents among the city elves?
You'd think that even if the nobility of Thedas care nothing for the suffering of elves, they would have some idea of self interest in keeping them out of the clutches not only of the Qun but any other organisation that offers them a better alternative to the one they currently have. Evidently not if Hawke's experience of the nobility of Kirkwall is anything to go by. As an elf Inquisitor I am concerned about the possibility and thus will do my best to give the city elves an alternative to the Qun.
The Qun just needs its Stalin and everything will fall into place.
.-.
I can see the appeal from an in-universe standpoint, if I don't think TOO hard about it. Guaranteed food and shelter, social justice, the feeling of usefulness and accomplishment.
However, we as gamers are able to look at it both from a Western-based morality system AND from developer intent. The Qunari were programmed as an enemy faction in DAII, therefore the writers of the Dragon Age game series consider the Qunari to be an opposing force to the player character and his/her organization and beliefs.
Personally I disagree with the Qun on a fundamental level. Case in point: Sten and cookies. Sten and kids playing in the street. Sten and KITTENS, of all things. Sten was deriving pleasure from something the Qun would deny him, all of which require being selfish, at least for a little while.
There's no joy, love, laughter, or happiness to the Qun. Because all of those things require a little bit of selfishness, which the Qun doesn't allow. In short, none of the things that we in western-based capitalist democratic societies think make life worth living. All sense of self: gone. Everything that makes us who we are: Gone. Free will: GONE.
The Arishok said it himself: "Obey and succeed or deny and die." That's not a choice. And the Qunari intend to force their belief system on all of Thedas. By military invasion. They don't see any worth in someone who doesn't follow the Qun. Because according to the Qun, such a thing is impossible.
Sexism and Mage abuse both exist in diametric opposition to a meritocracy.
However, does that outweigh that you're still scum in Thedas unless you're part of the Chosen Few?
Women can't be warriors unless they're spies.
And men can't be merchants.
But peasants can never be anything but the dung on the boots of nobles in Thedas.
Unless you're Logain. Or the Warden. Or a casteless dwarf made a Paragon. Or born a mage. The chance for advancement in Thedas does exist, the higher priesthood of the White Chantry a rare exception. A woman can be a knight. A man can still join the Chantry as a brother. Ferelden in particular seems very welcoming of the common man or woman advancing beyond the station they were born into. An exceptional enough person can achieve most anything.
In the Qun, however, it doesn't matter how exceptional a woman is, she will never be a soldier. She can fight. Heck, she could best every man in the Antaam, but she would never be Arishok, or hold any level of military command. And a man could make the most beautiful paintings, the most wonderful masterpieces, but he will never be the Arigena(leader of the craftspeople). Period.
I would argue that the Qun restricts the person far more than regular Thedosian society. It's a meritocracy, yes, but a very restricted one.
There may be advancement for people in some nations but generally it is very limited. Loghain was born in Ferelden which does seem to allow a certain element of social mobility, provided you are not an elf. In Ferelden, an elf isn't even protected by the law; if a person kills someone defending an elf, they are guilty of a crime, even if that person is an elf acting in self defence. If you kill the Tevinter Magister in Origins you are actually guilty of this, since he is acting with the authority of the current ruler and even if he wasn't you are merely protecting elves.
It is very rare for a castles dwarf to be made a paragon; generally the dwarves are limited by their sex to the caste they are born into. That doesn't seem so different from the Qun placing you in a particular profession.
In Orlais only nobles can become Chevaliers (knights) and commoners can only attend the university with the backing of a noble, so of course the nobles can exclude them by sticking together and refusing to do so. Whilst it is possible for a commoner to be elevated to the nobility, again this is dependent on the backing of a noble and usually a bit of corruption in forging documents.
The Grey Wardens stand outside the usual rules for advancement and you have to undertake a pretty repulsive bonding ritual, after which you are doomed to haunted dreams and a bleak future; obviously a commoner would probably have an equally bleak future which is why the Grey Wardens still seem to be able to get recruits.
In between Blights, Exalted Marches and non-local warfare, the mages are pretty much limited by the confines of their Circle; it is a gilded cage but a cage nonetheless. Obviously mages have it even worse in the Qun, which is why you won't find mages jumping to join them.
So for the majority of commoners and practically all elves, the opportunities for advancement in Thedosian society are very limited, particularly if you do not have money or the backing of a noble.
I'm not sure its as much agreeing with the Qun as it is disagreeing with the Chantry in some cases.
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Have you seen Sten's segment in the fade? His fellow soldiers seems pretty lively, and they are taken straight from his memories. He KNOWS they're dead, but still wishes to remain with them. Saying "there is no happiness in the Qun" seems false to me.
Have you seen Sten's segment in the fade? His fellow soldiers seems pretty lively, and they are taken straight from his memories. He KNOWS they're dead, but still wishes to remain with them. Saying "there is no happiness in the Qun" seems false to me.
Sten specifically denies that qunari soldiers are actually like that.
Honestly I found the Arishok in DA2 the only character to have any sense and the only character apart from certain party members to be sane. when that whole situation with the elves and Aveline popped up I agreed with him, Aveline please do your job better please. The Qun is appealing in some ways after talking with sten and the Arishok but I have my disagreements with it. One thing I like about qunari is that they value honesty in a sense and when something needs to be done do it properly don't half ass it.
Personally I don't think its surprising that many city elves sign up to the Qun I highly suspect their living standards and treatment would improve compared to how they are now. Honestly I think if that situation with Vaughen happened under the Qun? He would be killed IMO.
Honestly if they changed how they treat their mages I think you would see more people signing up to it in my opinion. I can see the appeal of it but I would never join it since I have several disagreements with it. Well honestly after da2 I prefer it somewhat over the chantry minus how the Qun treat their mages.
When the Arishok says this to the nobles and I agree with him "Look at you! Like fat Dathrasi, you feed and feed and complain only when you're meal is interrupted. You do not look up... You do not see that the grass is bare. All you leave in your wake is MISERY!"
He was right in my opinion honestly I felt kinda bad for killing him even if I disagree with him.
Sten specifically denies that qunari soldiers are actually like that.
Damn, must have missed/forgot about it. Sorry dude, my mistake.
Yeah if your looking for the moral reasoning of the Qun the Arishok is a good example. He didn't necessarily go about it in the best way but his views weren't necessarily wrong. If your looking for the more empathetic side of the Qun, Tallis puts forth a pretty strong case (in my view) for it. She certainly seems aware of the things the Qun advocates, like the use of qamek and whatnot but she doesn't see it as tyranny necessarily, certainly her talk about freedom from fear and pain etc. resonates with me. Otherwise a holistic understanding of the Qun seems pretty impossible to achieve since we know so little about them firsthand. We've never even seen any of their cities so we have no idea how their society functions in practice.Honestly I found the Arishok in DA2 the only character to have any sense and the only character apart from certain party members to be sane. when that whole situation with the elves and Aveline popped up I agreed with him, Aveline please do your job better please. The Qun is appealing in some ways after talking with sten and the Arishok but I have my disagreements with it. One thing I like about qunari is that they value honesty in a sense and when something needs to be done do it properly don't half ass it.
Personally I don't think its surprising that many city elves sign up to the Qun I highly suspect their living standards and treatment would improve compared to how they are now. Honestly I think if that situation with Vaughen happened under the Qun? He would be killed IMO.
Honestly if they changed how they treat their mages I think you would see more people signing up to it in my opinion. I can see the appeal of it but I would never join it since I have several disagreements with it. Well honestly after da2 I prefer it somewhat over the chantry minus how the Qun treat their mages.
When the Arishok says this to the nobles and I agree with him "Look at you! Like fat Dathrasi, you feed and feed and complain only when you're meal is interrupted. You do not look up... You do not see that the grass is bare. All you leave in your wake is MISERY!" [/size]
He was right in my opinion honestly I felt kinda bad for killing him even if I disagree with him.[/size]
Yeah if your looking for the moral reasoning of the Qun the Arishok is a good example. He didn't necessarily go about it in the best way but his views weren't necessarily wrong. If your looking for the more empathetic side of the Qun, Tallis puts forth a pretty strong case (in my view) for it. She certainly seems aware of the things the Qun advocates, like the use of qamek and whatnot but she doesn't see it as tyranny necessarily, certainly her talk about freedom from fear and pain etc. resonates with me. Otherwise a holistic understanding of the Qun seems pretty impossible to achieve since we know so little about them firsthand. We've never even seen any of their cities so we have no idea how their society functions in practice.
Honestly I am surprised he held back for several years considering people were killing his soldiers, the dishonesty/lies and the general misery of the elves hell he even takes vengeance for the viscount son. If it was me I would of snapped ages ago, I mean Alistair says it best when he is talking about sten he says something to the effect its strange but in some ways what he says is quite reasonable and understand some of it. I personally think that is pretty scary that I can agree with sten on some points.
When I first heard of the Qun I was against it completely but after talking to sten and the Arishok I understand it better not that I agree with everything but I understand why would someone join it considering the situations people have to deal with in Thedas. Especially the city elves. If many of them are willing to fight and die for it in act 2 just shows how much the situation sucks for them and how they were not using it to simply shield themselves from the law.
Have you seen Sten's segment in the fade? His fellow soldiers seems pretty lively, and they are taken straight from his memories. He KNOWS they're dead, but still wishes to remain with them. Saying "there is no happiness in the Qun" seems false to me.
There is friendship, and appreciation and recognition for individual identity. Sten knows who that Karastan is, even if he addresses him by his official name. I've got a son and several friends named Mike, but I'm much more likely to call them by "hey you, Flibbitibert," than I am to confuse them with the others that share their name.
There's a lot about Qunari society that would bother me, but the fear that its adherents weren't able to be treated as individuals wouldn't be one of the things. I do wish that their philosophy wasn't so alien to the Dalish, human, and dwarven Inq's I've planned. I only have one extremist playthrough planned, opposite one that's convictionless. With any luck, I will find slightly different games.
When the Arishok says this to the nobles and I agree with him "Look at you! Like fat Dathrasi, you feed and feed and complain only when you're meal is interrupted. You do not look up... You do not see that the grass is bare. All you leave in your wake is MISERY!"
He was right in my opinion honestly I felt kinda bad for killing him even if I disagree with him.
You see my problem with the Arishok proclaiming how his society is so great when compared to ours while completely ignoring the fact that he murdered and old man who had probably never fought a day in his life and threw his decapitated head onto the floor in front of everyone.
Yeah maybe its just me but if I had to pick between the group that's a bunch of selfish jerks or the group that has no problem with mass murdering an entire room full of unarmed civilians? I'll pick the selfish jerks.
That moment we got to see the true nature of the Qunari and its monstrous. .
You see my problem with the Arishok proclaiming how his society is so great when compared to ours while completely ignoring the fact that he murdered and old man who had probably never fought a day in his life and threw his decapitated head onto the floor in front of everyone.
Yeah maybe its just me but if I had to pick between the group that's a bunch of selfish jerks or the group that has no problem with mass murdering an entire room full of unarmed civilians? I'll pick the selfish jerks.
That moment we got to see the true nature of the Qunari and its monstrous. .
The "unarmed citizens" were predominantly nobles. Parasites feeding off of society. The were hardly innocent. The viscount died because he hadn't fought. He sat around trying to appease everyone and in the process systematically failed to do anything about the issues facing his city. Again, he was no innocent. His actions - or inaction - directly contributed to the chaos that was ripping his city apart. Why shouldn't he face justice given how many had already died because of him?
I normally am a pro human Andrastian. but i do admit there is something very attractive with the Qun. a place for everyone and a life of order and meditation.
Its a beautiful thing. but beauty from a far.
But there are those elves who find a place in the Qun and Enjoy it, so it might not be all that bad.
Care to share why it appeals to you? Is it the fact that you don't need to feel what your doing is pointless? Is it lacking purpose and the Qun gives it to you no matter what it is? Is it just the desire to belong and follow a group? Does the idea of choice and individuality seem unimportant to you? What about the Qun makes it appealing to you?
very equality
so order
much civilized attitude towards magic
many technological superiority
wow
The "unarmed citizens" were predominantly nobles. Parasites feeding off of society. The were hardly innocent. The viscount died because he hadn't fought. He sat around trying to appease everyone and in the process systematically failed to do anything about the issues facing his city. Again, he was no innocent. His actions - or inaction - directly contributed to the chaos that was ripping his city apart. Why shouldn't he face justice given how many had already died because of him?
I have to agree. I am not a Qun supporter (or Andraste for that matter) but I have to agree with the Arishok. It is a crime to ignore the people you swear to serve and protect while living in the lap of luxury while yourpeople starve, blood mages run rampant, deaths and crime are at all time highs. It's disgusting and I was glad the Arishok took care of the main fat cockroach.
The "unarmed citizens" were predominantly nobles. Parasites feeding off of society. The were hardly innocent. The viscount died because he hadn't fought. He sat around trying to appease everyone and in the process systematically failed to do anything about the issues facing his city. Again, he was no innocent. His actions - or inaction - directly contributed to the chaos that was ripping his city apart. Why shouldn't he face justice given how many had already died because of him?
Yup, indeed plus lets not forget these people were murdering and torturing his soldiers hell all he was doing was sitting around looking for a dam book not bothering anyone the viscount can't control his own people! You are surprised he lost his head Truth? Lets not forget him seeing the issues with the elves and no justice is being done for them issue. The situation is grey that's why I can't "hate" the Arishok or see him as some horrible villian.
Honestly after thinking about it it seems that da2 is showing at times that Inaction can sometimes lead to worse problems down the line, I mean look at Elthina yeah its sad that she died but if she did something we could of possibly prevented the issues that occurred in act 3 and possibly prevented her death. Plus a lot of the nobles have no care for the suffering of people in Kirkwall if you bring the magistrate son back to him he bloody denies his son has a mental illness trying to cover it up and we are going to see more dead elves cause it but he would not care for them would he?
Yup, indeed plus lets not forget these people were murdering and torturing his soldiers hell all he was doing was sitting around looking for a dam book not bothering anyone
To be fair the Arishok launched an attack on the Chantry. Dozens of qunari storming the Chantry to kill a Revered Mother. I can see that bothering some. Granted in your game it may have been just that one qunari archer without a bowstring doing the deed but that could easily bother some aswell. In the end Petrice filled the martyr role she had Hawke auditioning for.
To be fair the Arishok launched an attack on the Chantry. Dozens of qunari storming the Chantry to kill a Revered Mother. I can see that bothering some. Granted in your game it may have been just that one qunari archer without a bowstring doing the deed but that could easily bother some aswell. In the end Petrice filled the martyr role she had Hawke auditioning for.
Eh hate Petrice this whole situation could of been avoided if she did not antagonize them or started a zealot army to murder his soldiers. Plus she murdered one of the qun's members the viscount son and the qun demands justice for his death so she got arrowed and they left.
Honestly I found the Arishok in DA2 the only character to have any sense and the only character apart from certain party members to be sane. when that whole situation with the elves and Aveline popped up I agreed with him, Aveline please do your job better please. The Qun is appealing in some ways after talking with sten and the Arishok but I have my disagreements with it. One thing I like about qunari is that they value honesty in a sense and when something needs to be done do it properly don't half ass it.
Personally I don't think its surprising that many city elves sign up to the Qun I highly suspect their living standards and treatment would improve compared to how they are now. Honestly I think if that situation with Vaughen happened under the Qun? He would be killed IMO.
Honestly if they changed how they treat their mages I think you would see more people signing up to it in my opinion. I can see the appeal of it but I would never join it since I have several disagreements with it. Well honestly after da2 I prefer it somewhat over the chantry minus how the Qun treat their mages.
When the Arishok says this to the nobles and I agree with him "Look at you! Like fat Dathrasi, you feed and feed and complain only when you're meal is interrupted. You do not look up... You do not see that the grass is bare. All you leave in your wake is MISERY!"
He was right in my opinion honestly I felt kinda bad for killing him even if I disagree with him.
I usually gave Isabella to him....once I learned he dies either way then that changed it a bit.
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