481 réponses à ce sujet

[Keroko]

If that was the truth the the elves today wouldn't exist, they exist because the Chantry stayed its hand and allowed them a place in the world.

Yes, after forbidding worship of the elven gods, forcing them all to convert to Maker worship and condemning the entire race to live in slums as something that can just barely avoid being called a slave race.

Such mercy. At least the Qun treat those they conquer and who agree to convert -even if only to avoid dying- as equals.
  

Because he converted to a cult that has and will likely try again to dominate the entirety of Thedas.

 
Just like the Chantry.
 

Honestly it reminds me of those death cults that sprung up and worshiped the blight and darkspawn, I'm sure they were put to the sword as well.
 
The Individual has meaning, it has rights and purpose until that interferes with the continuation of society, of civilization.
 
After that? Its just one person compared to everyone else.

"Agree with my ideal for society or die for the sake of my ideal society"

Sounds rather oppressive to me. Rather Qun, too.
 

Don't need to pretend.
 
It is.
 
By a large margin.

I'm sure the elves and other former Chantry worshippers who converted to the Qun agree with you.

Except they don't. Whenever people convert to the Qun, even those who were conquered and forced to convert, the Chantry has been noted to have great difficulty converting them back, if they succeed at all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Given we have never see what is behind the iron curtain and that they have rebels that seem to have been a long standing war with them...i'm doubtful about the "incorruptibility" of the Qun.

No one said they are incorruptible i said they have very low corruption because rejection of freedom (that brings corruption) and that they control that in their society in opposite to thedas that as we saw well is very corrupted.As i said in comparison to rest of thedas they lead in everything but giving you freedom. 

[raging_monkey]

Lets all calm down. Both groups have flaws its up to personal tastes on who is right

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lets all calm down. Both groups have flaws its up to personal tastes on who is right

As im calm i can respond only with...

[myahele]

I can almost see the appeal of the Qun. I'm not sure sure they feel the need to conquer the rest of Thedas, perhaps there's a belief that in order to achieve true perfection they need to conquer the world. Similar to everyone needs to believe in the Maker in order for him to return.

[raging_monkey]

As im calm i can respond only with...

its in english.... ew

[Keroko]

Lets all calm down. Both groups have flaws its up to personal tastes on who is right

I'm okay. Just... a tad annoyed that every time I point out that the Chantry isn't all sunflowers and happy songs my points regarding the bad stuff more often than not get ignored.

[SgtSteel91]

I can almost see the appeal of the Qun. I'm not sure sure they feel the need to conquer the rest of Thedas, perhaps there's a belief that in order to achieve true perfection they need to conquer the world. Similar to everyone needs to believe in the Maker in order for him to return.

 

They believe they have achieved enlightenment and a perfect society and they are brining their advancement to the rest of the world. Kind of like the Fire Nation in Avatar: The Last Airbender.

[raging_monkey]

I'm okay. Just... a tad annoyed that every time I point out that the Chantry isn't all sunflowers and happy songs my points regarding the bad stuff more often than not get ignored.

it happens some people are strong in their opinions and when we get annoyed with eachother we snap at each other the a good debate gets locked. Personally im enjoying reading the arguements

[TheKomandorShepard]

its in english.... ew

Well i doubt that you would want link to orginal version.

[raging_monkey]

Well i doubt that you would want link to orginal version.

an anime loving dude in his early 20s... yes please ... not subbed

[TheKomandorShepard]

an anime loving dude in his early 20s... yes please ... not subbed

I guess then you know Japanese?

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm okay. Just... a tad annoyed that every time I point out that the Chantry isn't all sunflowers and happy songs my points regarding the bad stuff more often than not get ignored.

 

It isn't ignored, its overlooked when you compare it to the Qun.

 

To me it will always be the lesser of two evils in that situation.

 

.-. You gripe about elves, spreading religion and destroying enemy states.

 

I don't care for any those arguments, the elves brought it upon themselves and the Chantry is better spreading then the Qun *Shrug*

[raging_monkey]

I guess then you know Japanese?

blame my ex... i come across as rude and informal. So i know enough just the equalvelent of dyslexic to the language lol

[Keroko]

I was under the impression that Qunari society or rather the Qun was everyone was born into a role, they don't get to choose and those that are not Qunari that embrace the Qun are still considered the slave class?

They're not born into a role, you get evaluated by the Tamassrans and assigned a role that they believe would best suit your talents.

If said role turns out to be something you enjoy, hurray for you! Lucky straw! Hope you continue to enjoy it for the rest of your life.

If said role turns out to be something you despise, well, you're screwed.
 

It isn't ignored, its overlooked when you compare it to the Qun.

To me it will always be the lesser of two evils in that situation.

.-. You gripe about elves, spreading religion and destroying enemy states.

I don't care for any those arguments, the elves brought it upon themselves and the Chantry is better spreading then the Qun *Shrug*

That's what I'm talking about. You claim the Chantry is better than the Qun, and don't care for/ignore the examples where they're worse than the Qun. Can you not see how frustrating it is when someone you're debating with ignores the majority of your points?

Nevermind that the elves bringing it upon themselves is highly up to debate. The Chantry certainly wasn't innocent in sparking the war, what with spreading rumours that the elves were performing human sacrifices.

And that's before we go into the logic of 'they brought the obliteration of their culture upon themselves' that you so happily use to defend the Chantry can be used to justify the qunari's invasion of Kirkwall all the same.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's what I'm talking about. You claim the Chantry is better than the Qun, and don't care for/ignore the examples where they're worse than the Qun. Can you not see how frustrating it is when someone you're debating with ignores the majority of your points?

 

 

That's more or less my gripe with Qunari defenders and proscribers of their Faith.

 

You defend those who began a continental wide war with no provocation, unleashed untold amounts of destruction rivaling only blights and killed Maker knows how many people, but it's swept under the rug because their ideology sounds nice.

 

 

Nevermind that the elves bringing it upon themselves is highly up to debate. The Chantry certainly wasn't innocent in sparking the war, what with spreading rumours that the elves were performing human sacrifices.

 

Just as the elves certainly weren't innocent when they waited out a blight for the express purpose of making war upon Orlais.

 

 

And that's before we go into the logic of 'they brought the obliteration of their culture upon themselves' that you so happily use to defend the Chantry can be used to justify the qunari's invasion of Kirkwall all the same.

 

The situations aren't similar.

 

The war against the Dales was one the elves brought to the Chantry, to Orlais, to Humanity.

 

Kirkwall was an assault brought upon by a Qunari becoming frustrated with his inability to find a book.

[aphelion4]

I admit that it's very well written, but aside from that their "religion"/culture is entirely revolting. I'm surprised there are people who even like the concept of it (outside of an rp/lore perspective of course!).

 

They definitely make a good bad guy. Sucks that their men are so attractive

[Master Warder Z_]

I admit that it's very well written, but aside from that their "religion"/culture is entirely revolting. I'm surprised there are people who even like the concept of it (outside of an rp/lore perspective of course!).

 

I had a decent conversation about this with Streemagic about a week ago.

 

There have been many who have proscribed to ideologies that many today find reprehensible, but they themselves saw nothing wrong with.

 

Its a product of their cultural values, their national identity and more; All in all it comes from the era they live, ideologies are a product of their times and not much else.

[TheKomandorShepard]

From what i remember andraste and chantry were conquering (for their ideology) as well so it isn't that chantry didn't do what qunari did.Qunari are in fact superior in many matters than thedas including chantry but whether you like their idea is up to you im person that is in it for myself and i don't like follow rules so i don't rly support qunari but i can see their advantages.  

[Keroko]

That's more or less my gripe with Qunari defenders and proscribers of their Faith.
 
You defend those who began a continental wide war with no provocation, unleashed untold amounts of destruction rivaling only blights and killed Maker knows how many people, but it's swept under the rug because their ideology sounds nice.

Not sure if that one was aimed at me, but... Like hell I defend it. I don't see how anyone could defend it. Hell, I've already pointed out on multiple occasions that the Qunari Wars was one of the few Exalted Marches where the Chantry was absolutely in the right.
 
An invasion is an invasion, regardless of the religion that backs it.

Besides, I keep pointing out the Qun would make me run for the hills every other post I make. I don't like it. It fascinates me from an RP perspective and I can see how many citizens of Thedas could see it as a very positive way of life, but I don't deny its oppressive nature.
 

Just as the elves certainly weren't innocent when they waited out a blight for the express purpose of making war upon Orlais.

 
Source on them waiting out the blight for the express purpose of making war on Orlais, please.
 

The situations aren't similar.
 
The war against the Dales was one the elves brought to the Chantry, to Orlais, to Humanity.
 
Kirkwall was an assault brought upon by a Qunari becoming frustrated with his inability to find a book.

Actually, the Kirkwall invasion was brought on by their inability to find the book, and the government, city guard and Chantry being entirely apathetic to the suffering of its people and their combined refusal to do anything about it.

The attack on the Chantry was started because said Chantry had murdered one of the qunari's converts. The actual invasion was the result of already rising tensions snapping because the city guard of Kirkwall demanded two new converts be handed over to them to be punished for a crime that was instigated by the very city guard demanding to hand them over.

The book was was only part of the reason for the invasion. The other was that Kirkwall couldn't stop dancing on the toes of the qunari.

And no, none of that justifies the invasion.

Now the elves, remember that even according to the kindest of sources (the Chantry itself) the elves were being accused of practising rituals of human sacrifice. Accusations they had no proof of whatsoever, and we find no trace of in elven culture. The Chantry was consciously trying to make the elves become feared and hated by the people.

Then we have the elves side of the story, which tells that they expelled Chantry missionaries from their land (if the Dalish are any indication, this was not done gently) and after that, the Chantry send templars.

If the accounts of red crossing are true, the invading templars led to elves snapping, and retaliating with an invasion of their own. Which led to the Exalted March on the dales.

So, yes, while the elves were not right in starting a war on their own, you'll excuse me if I don't exactly hold the Chantry blameless when the entire ordeal has "Orchestrated by the Chantry" written all over it. And it certainly does not excuse them from destroying and entire culture and condemning an entire race to death or near-slavery.

Oh, and rewriting their own religion to erase the elven help in the war that founded the Chantry. Because we can't have people thinking that elves are actually capable of something, can we?

Not even the qunari are this malicious to the people they conquer.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not sure if that one was aimed at me

 

It was not.

 

 

Source on them waiting out the blight for the express purpose of making war on Orlais, please.

 

Source on them not doing so?

 

Besides if you are going to blatantly keep mentioning the war between Orlais and the Dales, i am going to point out the strongest and more creditable theory (it has the most lore supporting it) The Dales began the war, and considering how rapidly it came after Orlais was DEVASTATED after a blight, in which they sent their own forces to liberate the wardens of the Anderfels while they were under siege by the darkspawn.

 

It looks that way from a military perspective, they waited until their foe was bloody and weary from a possible end of the war scenario: Beyond that watched Orlais burn around them, despite you know it being Humanity that gave them their freedom, that gave them the Dales and that broke the Imperium that had enslaved them for a thousand years.

 

I'd assume their dismissal of aiding Orlais had a reasoning, just as i'd assume their invasion had a reasoning.

 

It's all moot now i understand but still.

 

 

Now the elves, remember that even according to the kindest of sources (the Chantry itself) the elves were being accused of practising rituals of human sacrifice. Accusations they had no proof of whatsoever, and we find no trace of in elven culture. 

 

Considering their seemingly buddy buddyness with demons back in the day...well i wouldn't be surprised if those had a grain of truth to them.

 

 

Oh, and rewriting their own religion to erase the elven help in the war that founded the Chantry. Because we can't have people thinking that elves are actually capable of something, can we?

 

Considering the elves of the Dales themselves turned their backs on Shartan long before the Chantry did...I really don't see the point.

 

Shartan was an Andrastian.

 

 

Not even the qunari are this malicious to the people they conquer.

 

We really don't know that considering we haven't seen what they do with the people they conqueror, we have read about by accounts from Orlais when they retook Kirkwall, but even that horror story seems tame compared to what i'd suspect the Qunari would do.

 

I mean if you don't consider enslavement, reducation, work camps, executions and alike to be superior to "near enslavement"    I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

Not even the qunari are this malicious to the people they conquer.

 

No they will just turn you into a sack of flesh that cannot question, cannot think and can only work.

[TTTX]

Besides if you are going to blatantly keep mentioning the war between Orlais and the Dales, i am going to point out the strongest and more creditable theory (it has the most lore supporting it) The Dales began the war, and considering how rapidly it came after Orlais was DEVASTATED after a blight, in which they sent their own forces to liberate the wardens of the Anderfels while they were under siege by the darkspawn.

The Dales stayed out of the second blight and invade Orlais, but Orlais didn't want to help in the fourth blight either and have invaded other countries in Thedas.

 

Seems like Orlais and the Dales have something in common.

[Keroko]

Source on them not doing so?

Nnnnonono, that's not how burden of proof works. That's like claiming there's a teapot in orbit around the sun right now, and claiming you're right because I can't find any proof that there isn't. You made a claim they refused to help with the blight with the express purpose of invading Orlais, you find proof to back that up.
 

Besides if you are going to blatantly keep mentioning the war between Orlais and the Dales, i am going to point out the strongest and more creditable theory (it has the most lore supporting it) The Dales began the war, and considering how rapidly it came after Orlais was DEVASTATED after a blight, in which they sent their own forces to liberate the wardens of the Anderfels while they were under siege by the darkspawn.
 
It looks that way from a military perspective, they waited until their foe was bloody and weary from a possible end of the war scenario: Beyond that watched Orlais burn around them, despite you know it being Humanity that gave them their freedom, that gave them the Dales and that broke the Imperium that had enslaved them for a thousand years.
 
I'd assume their dismissal of aiding Orlais had a reasoning, just as i'd assume their invasion had a reasoning.
 
It's all moot now i understand but still.

 
Teeny-tiny hole in that theory is that the second blight ended in 1:95. The war with the elves didn't start until 2:09, fourteen whole years after the end of the blight. Now, I'm not a genius on military tactics, but giving your enemy fourteen years to rebuild sounds like a rather miserable strategy if waiting out the blight was done with the express purpose of attacking a weakened Orlais.

But yes, let's discuss the majority sources. Have you noticed that those sources happen to be Chantry sources? Sources from an organization that have already shown no hesitation to rewrite history in their favour? Now, I agree that both sides are guilty of this, which is why I took both histories into account when I described the scenario. Combining both scenarios you get a history in which the Chantry is poking and prodding the elves, provoking an attack that the elves were all too eager to oblige.

Turns the elves into the villains and makes the Chantry look like the heroes who saved the world (a scenario further reinforced by them censoring all elven involvement in the first Exalted March), all the while obliterating elven culture and spreading the chant further and further.

The Exalted March against the elves was exactly the kind of invasion the Qun is so despised for, except sneakier. More Orlesian.
 

Considering their seemingly buddy buddyness with demons back in the day...well i wouldn't be surprised if those had a grain of truth to them.

 
Buddy buddyness? Most demons want nothing more than rip elves to shreds, I don't quite see where the buddy buddyness is. 

Haven't read a lot of novels though... is it somewhere in there?
 

Considering the elves of the Dales themselves turned their backs on Shartan long before the Chantry did...I really don't see the point.
 
Shartan was an Andrastian.

 
Oh, I'm aware. But remember when you claimed that people under the Chantry were free? Forbidding them their gods and forcing them to convert to the Chantry, then stripping them from every basic right, reducing them to a slave race in all but name and striking any accomplishment of their race from their religion is not freedom.

We really don't know that considering we haven't seen what they do with the people they conqueror, we have read about by accounts from Orlais when they retook Kirkwall, but even that horror story seems tame compared to what i'd suspect the Qunari would do.
 
I mean if you don't consider enslavement, reducation, work camps, executions and alike to be superior to "near enslavement"    I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.

 
Oh, I admit that the fate for those who choose not to follow the Qun when they are conquered is not a happy one. However, when comparing the qunari conquering a civilization to the Chantry's conquest of the elves, there is an important distinction to note:

The Qun gives you a choice: Submit to the Qun and be treated as an equal from thereon (see: viscount's son and the elf boys in DA:2), or get tossed into camps/get lobotomized/executed.

The Chantry gave the elves a choice: Submit to the Maker and get tossed into what is a slave camp in all but name, or be executed.

The qunari royally screw over those who say no to them. The Chantry royally screwed over all elves. Everywhere. And continues to do so to this day. Regardless of whether they agreed to the Chantry's terms.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nnnnonono, that's not how burden of proof works.

 

It isn't?

 

I provide my theory, you provide yours and citations to that effect.

 

.-. You dismissing a position because you cannot find proof to negate it does not make it wrong.

 

 

The Chantry gave the elves a choice: Submit to the Maker and get tossed into what is a slave camp in all but name, or be executed.

 

That obviously never happened because if it had the Dalish wouldn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

Buddy buddyness? Most demons want nothing more than rip elves to shreds, I don't quite see where the buddy buddyness is. 

Haven't read a lot of novels though... is it somewhere in there?

 

 

Yup.

 

Well it was sort of hinted at in DA 2 if you paid close attention, but TME further cemented my personal belief on the matter.

 

Their mirrors are the product of them working with demons to achieve them, one of the elder four demons of Thedas personally provides the means to unlocking them, knows more then any living soul about them and even points the intrepid band of adventurers in the right direction to find them.

 

 

But yes, let's discuss the majority sources. Have you noticed that those sources happen to be Chantry sources? 

 

WOT's account is WOG, aka it may come from the Chantry and may be praised in a way that is pleasing to folks from the Chantry, but its the truth of the matter.

 

Word of God is word of god.

 

 

Nnnnonono, that's not how burden of proof works. That's like claiming there's a teapot in orbit around the sun right now, and claiming you're right because I can't find any proof that there isn't. You made a claim they refused to help with the blight with the express purpose of invading Orlais, you find proof to back that up.
 
 
Teeny-tiny hole in that theory is that the second blight ended in 1:95. The war with the elves didn't start until 2:09, fourteen whole years after the end of the blight. Now, I'm not a genius on military tactics, but giving your enemy fourteen years to rebuild sounds like a rather miserable strategy if waiting out the blight was done with the express purpose of attacking a weakened Orlais.

 

Well on this point you aren't exactly wrong but that could have come from many varying scenario to be honest.

 

They might have needed that time to mobilize their own forces for the campaign, they may have needed further preparation, ultimately there are many reasoning for a delay for such a short period.

 

Because if you look into our own history and even if that of Thedas, but wars are not recovered from quickly, the longer they rage, the more people that are killed, the more cities and villages are sacked, it further weakens the system.

 

No one is growing crops during a blight, no one is mining ore, no one is shipping freight, all efforts go towards defeating the blight.

 

Commerce does not flow, it is abandoned in favor of survival.

 

So sure would Orlais have recovered somewhat by that point? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be anywhere near 100%.