481 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

All of Master Warder z anti elf nonsense.

[raging_monkey]

i label him a reasonable human chantry supremist but h lets be friendly im sure if we ask politly he'll give usca articulate explanation for his opinions

[Argetfalcon]

I guess the videogame worlds also have their idiots

[raging_monkey]

I guess the videogame worlds also have their idiots

lets play nice my friend lol

OT: ive wondered grant the qun does mediocre things to say it politly. What thedas be like if the qunari won cant be any worse

[dragonflight288]

I was under the impression that Qunari society or rather the Qun was everyone was born into a role, they don't get to choose and those that are not Qunari that embrace the Qun are still considered the slave class?

 

No. 

 

Everyone born within the Qun are raised by the Tamrassan. They are evaluated and assigned roles based on their merit as they grow older. They aren't born into roles. 

[Drasanil]

No. 

 

Everyone born within the Qun are raised by the Tamrassan. They are evaluated and assigned roles based on their merit as they grow older. They aren't born into roles. 

 

They are however selectively bred for their roles. Whilst everyone is assigned a role based on their talents/natural preferences regardless of their actual parents/birth, the Qunari do also purposefully breed matching pairs in order to refine... uhm 'role affinity'. 

[raging_monkey]

No.  Everyone born within the Qun are raised by the Tamrassan. They are evaluated and assigned roles based on their merit as they grow older. They aren't born into roles.

i like that aspect of the qun everybody has a place, a job its the alternative i complain about

[dragonflight288]

They are however selectively bred for their roles. Whilst everyone is assigned a role based on their talents/natural preferences regardless of their actual parents/birth, the Qunari do also purposefully breed matching pairs in order to refine... uhm 'role affinity'. 

 

Partially true. The Qun chooses your partners for the purpose of populaion control. This is a known fact. 

 

I don't know if the partner is chosen based on the role and hoping to get more people in that role, or if it's someone chosen, again, by evaluation of both candidates. 

[Lumix19]

They are however selectively bred for their roles. Whilst everyone is assigned a role based on their talents/natural preferences regardless of their actual parents/birth, the Qunari do also purposefully breed matching pairs in order to refine... uhm 'role affinity'.

Is this a problem? I think it's actually a pretty good idea.

[raging_monkey]

Partially true. The Qun chooses your partners for the purpose of populaion control. This is a known fact.  I don't know if the partner is chosen based on the role and hoping to get more people in that role, or if it's someone chosen, again, by evaluation of both candidates.

its like a dating site that calulates compatiablity but instead of love its for a specific role.
Ex: warrior+ medic makes what ever tamamessran decieds

[Drasanil]

Partially true. The Qun chooses your partners for the purpose of populaion control. This is a known fact. 

 

I don't know if the partner is chosen based on the role and hoping to get more people in that role, or if it's someone chosen, again, by evaluation of both candidates. 

 

IIRC, one of the devs explained that the entire point of a Qunari's actual name was in fact some form of glorified bar code designed to refine/facilitate the breeding process for the Tammasarrans. 

 

Is this a problem? I think it's actually a pretty good idea.

 

Not necessarily. But when you look at it in the context of Qun defenders, namely that the accident of birth doesn't determine your entirety of your life, it does come across as somewhat hypocritical. After all, in the name of efficiency, the Qun is purposefully trying to refine the entire process of breeding down to a point where [barring flukes] birth will be the sole determining factor in your abilities.

[dragonflight288]

Anyway, Master Warder Z, Keroko, I'm enjoying reading your guys' debate. I don't like either the Chantry or the Qun because they each have their faults.

 

But please try not to snipe at each other. 

 

Master Warder Z, Keroko has a point about burden of proof. You offered a theory about why the elves held back, and that is they were holding back for the purpose of invading Orlais. 

 

I have seen nothing that asserts this at all in any game, book or magazine. I do admit that I haven't focused on that bit of lore in the Dragon Age universe, so chances are I'm overlooking something if something exists. 

 

But if you have a theory, proposed it and are using it as an argument, then it is on you to provide evidence to support that theory. Whether codex entries, links to dev comments, quotes from the books, or whatever, you have to have some evidence to back up your claim that the ancient Dalish held back during the blight for the purpose of invading Orlais later. 

 

Without evidence, that statement is groundless. 

 

But granted, I know you like to roleplay, and it may very well be possible that you are roleplaying in this debate as someone completely pro-chantry, but at the very least, since I know you can be very reasonable (and you introduced me to Naruto,) when you make claims about something the ancient elves did or the qun does, please try avoiding ignoring when the Chantry is guilty of the exact same things.

 

Keroko, I don't have much to say to you as I've been reading your guys' arguments all the way through and recognize you aren't really defending the Qun as superior to the Chantry, but are merely pointing out that the Qun is better than the Chantry in some ways and the Chantry is better than the Qun in many other ways, but I do think I should say this. 

 

You really ought to read the novels. They offer a great deal of extra lore. The Stolen Throne shows the Chantry's relation to Orlais. The Calling adds new depth to the Grey Wardens, Maric, and adds a potential scandal to Alistair's story even if he is completely unaware of it and gives Loghain a perfectly logical reason to distrust the Wardens, Asunder shows the good and bad of mages and templars, and The Masked Empire goes more into Orlesian society, the major players in the Civil War, and provides a bit more lore on eluvians. 

[raging_monkey]

Anyway, Master Warder Z, Keroko, I'm enjoying reading your guys' debate. I don't like either the Chantry or the Qun because they each have their faults. But please try not to snipe at each other.  Master Warder Z, Keroko has a point about burden of proof. You offered a theory about why the elves held back, and that is they were holding back for the purpose of invading Orlais.  I have seen nothing that asserts this at all in any game, book or magazine. I do admit that I haven't focused on that bit of lore in the Dragon Age universe, so chances are I'm overlooking something if something exists.  But if you have a theory, proposed it and are using it as an argument, then it is on you to provide evidence to support that theory. Whether codex entries, links to dev comments, quotes from the books, or whatever, you have to have some evidence to back up your claim that the ancient Dalish held back during the blight for the purpose of invading Orlais later.  Without evidence, that statement is groundless.  But granted, I know you like to roleplay, and it may very well be possible that you are roleplaying in this debate as someone completely pro-chantry, but at the very least, since I know you can be very reasonable (and you introduced me to Naruto,) when you make claims about something the ancient elves did or the qun does, please try avoiding ignoring when the Chantry is guilty of the exact same things. Keroko, I don't have much to say to you as I've been reading your guys' arguments all the way through and recognize you aren't really defending the Qun as superior to the Chantry, but are merely pointing out that the Qun is better than the Chantry in some ways and the Chantry is better than the Qun in many other ways, but I do think I should say this.  You really ought to read the novels. They offer a great deal of extra lore. The Stolen Throne shows the Chantry's relation to Orlais. The Calling adds new depth to the Grey Wardens, Maric, and adds a potential scandal to Alistair's story even if he is completely unaware of it and gives Loghain a perfectly logical reason to distrust the Wardens, Asunder shows the good and bad of mages and templars, and The Masked Empire goes more into Orlesian society, the major players in the Civil War, and provides a bit more lore on eluvians.

preach my friend preach.

Lets all try and be civil or do whst i do keep the peace.

IIRC, one of the devs explained that the entire point of a Qunari's actual name was in fact some form of glorified bar code designed to refine/facilitate the breeding process for the Tammasarrans.   Not necessarily. But when you look at it in the context of Qun defenders, namely that the accident of birth doesn't determine your entirety of your life, it does come across as somewhat hypocritical. After all, in the name of efficiency, the Qun is purposefully trying to refine the entire process of breeding down to a point where [barring flukes] birth will be the sole determining factor in your abilities.

its more a social security number

[Lumix19]

Not necessarily. But when you look at it in the context of Qun defenders, namely that the accident of birth doesn't determine your entirety of your life, it does come across as somewhat hypocritical. After all, in the name of efficiency, the Qun is purposefully trying to refine the entire process of breeding down to a point where [barring flukes] birth will be the sole determining factor in your abilities.

Except under the Qun your birth isn't accidental, it's planned and prepared for. Qunari aren't just born into a role, they're bred for it. Contrast this to the other systems in Thedas where you are born into the nobility but there's no actual reason for you to get such a position.

[Drasanil]

Except under the Qun your birth isn't accidental, it's planned and prepared for. Qunari aren't just born into a role, they're bred for it. Contrast this to the other systems in Thedas where you are born into the nobility but there's no actual reason for you to get such a position.

 

Actually, isn't that the entire point of having a hereditary nobility? Nobles are just born [selectively bred, since the nobility practice arranged marriages and rarely marry below their station] better, naturally suited for the terrible burden of responsibility.  

 

You're just saying the Qunari are right because they might* be better at it and the Qunari's breeding practices don't necessarily carry the same real-world implications that an aristocracy brings up. But given the Qunari having been practising this for centuries, it is entirely possible they have an informal or unacknowledged aristocracy of their own.  

 

*I say might, because the Tal-Vashoth seem to be perennial problem which exists indepedent of any outside interference, and would indicate a severe flaw in their breeding program.   

[raging_monkey]

Actually, isn't that the entire point of having a hereditary nobility? Nobles are just born [selectively bred, since the nobility practice arranged marriages and rarely marry below their station] better, naturally suited for the terrible burden of responsibility.   You're just saying the Qunari are right because they might* be better at it and the Qunari's breeding practices don't necessarily carry the same real-world implications that an aristocracy brings up. But given the Qunari having been practising this for centuries, it is entirely possible they have an informal or unacknowledged aristocracy of their own.   *I say might, because the Tal-Vashoth seem to be perennial problem which exists indepedent of any outside interference, and would indicate a severe flaw in their breeding program.

programs like that often forget human nature

[Lumix19]

Actually, isn't that the entire point of having a hereditary nobility? Nobles are just born [selectively bred, since the nobility practice arranged marriages and rarely marry below their station] better, naturally suited for the terrible burden of responsibility.  
 
You're just saying the Qunari are right because they might* be better at it and the Qunari's breeding practices don't necessarily carry the same real-world implications that an aristocracy brings up. But given the Qunari having been practising this for centuries, it is entirely possible they have an informal or unacknowledged aristocracy of their own.  
 
*I say might, because the Tal-Vashoth seem to be perennial problem which exists indepedent of any outside interference, and would indicate a severe flaw in their breeding program.

A cynic might say that the concept of hereditary nobility wasn't at all meant for such a purpose but rather to preserve power within your family and provide a means by which you could acquire more (through advantageous marriages etc). As an idealist I would simply point out that the theory of hereditary nobility rarely seems to be practiced as such.
It's possible that the Qunari have an informal aristocracy I suppose but that implies a selfishness that defies the Qun in almost every aspect and corruption at the very heart of all three sectors of Qunari society. Certainly there's no evidence for or against such corruption but from what we have seen of Qunari society I find it unlikely - the Arishok certainly seemed extremely devoted to the Qun
The Tal-Vashoth are an interesting case but I view them not as a result of a failed breeding program but rather as those who simply cannot handle how much your required to sacrifice under the Qun. I think they represent not what's wrong with the Qun but that the Qun demands you to be so selfless that even some that are born into it can't handle the Qun's demands.

[Orzammar OG]

I agree with certain aspects of the Qun, but I feel it's a bit too restrictive. Though the argument could be made that if it isn't restrictive then the society would fall apart.

[leaguer of one]

A cynic might say that the concept of hereditary nobility wasn't at all meant for such a purpose but rather to preserve power within your family and provide a means by which you could acquire more (through advantageous marriages etc). As an idealist I would simply point out that the theory of hereditary nobility rarely seems to be practiced as such.
It's possible that the Qunari have an informal aristocracy I suppose but that implies a selfishness that defies the Qun in almost every aspect and corruption at the very heart of all three sectors of Qunari society. Certainly there's no evidence for or against such corruption but from what we have seen of Qunari society I find it unlikely - the Arishok certainly seemed extremely devoted to the Qun
The Tal-Vashoth are an interesting case but I view them not as a result of a failed breeding program but rather as those who simply cannot handle how much your required to sacrifice under the Qun. I think they represent not what's wrong with the Qun but that the Qun demands you to be so selfless that even some that are born into it can't handle the Qun's demands.

But that argument is countered by the fact that everyone in it is seen a disposable in some form and a tool. They even sent the head general of their armies out on a mission with a high likely hood of dying.

[Aimi]

Actually, isn't that the entire point of having a hereditary nobility? Nobles are just born [selectively bred, since the nobility practice arranged marriages and rarely marry below their station] better, naturally suited for the terrible burden of responsibility.

Perhaps that's the ideology, but any practical/realistic defense of hereditary nobility would emphasize nurture, not nature: that the children of nobles are provided with the opportunity to learn to fight and lead and govern - an opportunity that those who are not born into ruling, wealthy families do not possess.

[Ms .45]

We've pretty much only heard the brochure pitch about the Qun. No one is hungry! Everyone fits their role perfectly! Only a few become Tal-Vashoth! Look how advanced our tech is!

We haven't been to Par Vollen, or any normal Qunari city, and seen how it's playing out firsthand. I expect there's just as much squabbling and corrupt bureaucrats as anywhere else.

Not quite - remember Sten's dream in The Fade? (I know a lot of you may have modded past that bit  ) The point there is that Sten's army buddies are presented more or less how he saw them, allowing for the fact that he knows damn well it's a dream.

 

Qunari see themselves as normal and appropriate the same as we all see our society as normal and appropriate. Do you think of your society as having rigid class roles, for instance? When my dad visited "the old country" he was blown away by how strong the class distinctions were. And this is visiting a society that shares a language and culture!

 

Sten's Fade Dream

[Lumix19]

But that argument is countered by the fact that everyone in it is seen a disposable in some form and a tool. They even sent the head general of their armies out on a mission with a high likely hood of dying.

Everyone is seen as a tool of society, not an aristocratic class. They all serve the greater good just as each part of the body serves the whole. I viewed the Arishok's mission as proof that no individual, even a member of the Triumvirate, is worth subverting the good of Qunari society. His mission was not arbitrary, it was a demand of the Qun.

[Drasanil]

Everyone is seen as a tool of society, not an aristocratic class. They all serve the greater good just as each part of the body serves the whole. I viewed the Arishok's mission as proof that no individual, even a member of the Triumvirate, is worth subverting the good of Qunari society. His mission was not arbitrary, it was a demand of the Qun.

 

Or he made enough political enemies that the 'Qun' 'demanded' he go on the mission. After all, while the Tome of Koslun sounds important and impressive, its exactly the sort of sentimental hofflenosh the Qun is precisely supposed to not care about, and certainly not waste an entire army to recover.  

 

If this instruction manual was so fundamental to the Qun, surely they made copies of it no? Who cares if an older mustier copy of it was lost to the Bas, the Qunari would have perfectly legible editions back in Por Vallen to instruct with. 

[TTTX]

Or he made enough political enemies that the 'Qun' 'demanded' he go on the mission. After all, while the Tome of Koslun sounds important and impressive, its exactly the sort of sentimental hofflenosh the Qun is precisely supposed to not care about, and certainly not waste an entire army to recover.  

 

If this instruction manual was so fundamental to the Qun, surely they made copies of it no? Who cares if an older mustier copy of it was lost to the Bas, the Qunari would have perfectly legible editions back in Por Vallen to instruct with. 

It was probably the original tomb that Kosland wrote himself and that would make it very "holy" for the Qunari, they most likely have copies, but they aren't the original.

[Lumix19]

Or he made enough political enemies that the 'Qun' 'demanded' he go on the mission. After all, while the Tome of Koslun sounds important and impressive, its exactly the sort of sentimental hofflenosh the Qun is precisely supposed to not care about, and certainly not waste an entire army to recover.  

 

If this instruction manual was so fundamental to the Qun, surely they made copies of it no? Who cares if an older mustier copy of it was lost to the Bas, the Qunari would have perfectly legible editions back in Por Vallen to instruct with. 

 

It was probably the original tomb that Kosland wrote himself and that would make it very "holy" for the Qunari, they most likely have copies, but they aren't the original.

Indeed, Tallis says that the Tome isn't a thing. "It's a soul, a purpose. Like Bianca, but with pages." I think it's a bit like Sten and his sword, if Qunari society was a person the Tome would be it's tool/weapon, it's soul. It seems to be a cultural thing in Qunari society but perhaps it teaches them not to waste things and also acts as a reminder of their duty.