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[Drasanil]

 

It was probably the original tomb that Kosland wrote himself and that would make it very "holy" for the Qunari, they most likely have copies, but they aren't the original.

 

 

And like I said, that's exactly the sort of thing the Qun is not supposed to care about. By Qunari logic, the original text should have no more value than its copy. 

 

Indeed, Tallis says that the Tome isn't a thing. "It's a soul, a purpose. Like Bianca, but with pages." I think it's a bit like Sten and his sword, if Qunari society was a person the Tome would be it's tool/weapon, it's soul. It seems to be a cultural thing in Qunari society but perhaps it teaches them not to waste things and also acts as a reminder of their duty.

 

The only purpose to a 'soul' is to denote a given qunari's place, hence why Sten needed his sword/soul to return home, otherwise he would be known as a deserter. The original Tome of Koslun was in Orlesian hands for a while. Tallis can make all the excuses she wants but the logic does not apply. It's not the Arishok's soul that would be his sword. It's not the Qun's soul, given the priests are the embodiment of that on a societal level. 

 

So why do they care? Real answer is they didn't and the mission the Arishok went on was political sabotage and he knew it. It explains a lot too, why he was so frustrated, why so many Qunari deserted [they were abandoned first, not exactly loyalty inspiring], why even after you give him the tome and Isebella she 'miraculously' escapes with it, out in the middle of the ocean with no help in sight apart for the Qunari on board the ship...

 

The Arishok was never supposed to make it back regardless of what he did and deep down he knew it. 

[TTTX]

And like I said, that's exactly the sort of thing the Qun is not supposed to care about. By Qunari logic, the original text should have no more value than its copy. 

The Qunari returned to Kirkwall to search for their fallen cowards swords, they waste nothing and everything they make for the individual is more or less one of a kind. Not to mention Kosland it's pretty much the heart and soul of the Qun and that's why his tomb is so important it like Sten and his sword. Losing the Tomb is like losing a part of your soul.

 

To you it's stupid that they would hunt down a book, but to them it's the very essence of what they are, not just for the individual but for the entire Qun.

 

So why do they care? Real answer is they didn't and the mission the Arishok went on was political sabotage and he knew it. It explains a lot too, why he was so frustrated, why so many Qunari deserted [they were abandoned first, not exactly loyalty inspiring], why even after you give him the tome and Isebella she 'miraculously' escapes with it, out in the middle of the ocean with no help in sight apart for the Qunari on board the ship...

 

He lost people sure, but he also gain a lot of converts in return.

[Drasanil]

The Qunari returned to Kirkwall to search for their fallen cowards swords, they waste nothing and everything they make for the individual is more or less one of a kind.

 

That's pretty much the definition of waste, they're wasting effort recovering the swords of fallen soldiers which will never be used again given each soldier has a unique weapon made for them. 

 

 

Not to mention Kosland it's pretty much the heart and soul of the Qun and that's why his tomb is so important it like Sten and his sword. Losing the Tomb is like losing a part of your soul.

 

They got on fine with out it for centuries, and if it was truly that important, why would the Qunari risk bringing in the middle of occupied Thedas? It was captured as a spoil of war remember.

 

 

To you it's stupid that they would hunt down a book, but to them it's the very essence of what they are, not just for the individual but for the entire Qun.

 

It's not just stupid to me, its contradictory to their very philosophy. 

 

 

He lost people sure, but he also gain a lot of converts in return.

 

Converts he knows he can't really keep. The authorities would never let the converts leave Kirkwall that would set a horrible precedent. 

[TTTX]

That's pretty much the definition of waste, they're wasting effort recovering the swords of fallen soldiers which will never be used again given each soldier has a unique weapon made for them. 

 

They got on fine with out it for centuries, and if it was truly that important, why would the Qunari risk bringing in the middle of occupied Thedas? It was captured as a spoil of war remember.

 

It's not just stupid to me, its contradictory to their very philosophy. 

 

Converts he knows he can't really keep. The authorities would never let the converts leave Kirkwall that would set a horrible precedent. 

They probably record their fallen and melt down the swords back into something else.

 

Sten can also fight just fine without his sword, but as he clearly cares a lot for his sword and misses it greatly. They probably didn't count on the resistant of Thedas and being so resourceful. Even in the current age of DA, they don't understand the rest of Thedas, to them, Thedas people are alien.

 

Not really, if Qunari loses his weapon, he has two choices either to return to the Qun and die (or just die) or search for his weapon until he has found it. For the Qun the Tomb is their weapon and everything they are so to speak and have probably search for for the Tomb ever since they lost it. For the Qun there is only one real Tomb of Kosland every copy is just a copy and not the Original

 

The government of Kirkwall wouldn't have cared when the converts leave a good portion of them are elves and the poor that has nothing, humans in general don't care what they elves and the poor do unless they break the law or are in the way.

[darkmanifest]

 

So why do they care? Real answer is they didn't and the mission the Arishok went on was political sabotage and he knew it. It explains a lot too, why he was so frustrated, why so many Qunari deserted [they were abandoned first, not exactly loyalty inspiring], why even after you give him the tome and Isebella she 'miraculously' escapes with it, out in the middle of the ocean with no help in sight apart for the Qunari on board the ship...

 

The Arishok was never supposed to make it back regardless of what he did and deep down he knew it. 

 

 

I think you're right, but only half right.  The Arishok himself says it wasn't about the book, but the fact that the book was lost under HIS watch.  The most important thing to the Qunani is proficiency at the roles they are given.  With the loss of the book, the Arishok demonstrated that he wasn't proficient at his role of guarding what was important to the Qun.  If he couldn't even hold on to one book, then how what he supposed to protect the millions of Qunari who rely on the army to stand between them and people like Isabela? Like you said, the Qunari couldn't care a fig about a piece of leather and paper, but the failure the loss of that leather and paper represented, well, that was a different story.  The Qun doesn't tolerate people who suck at their jobs, they get reassigned, so the Arishok was an errand boy until he proved he was worthy of being a commander again.

 

Now, it's interesting to note that, regardless of whether or not they ever get the Tome of Koslun back, the other Qunari are allowed to return to home, so long as the Arishok is dead.  His failure apparently did not apply to them.  So you're correct that exile was a personal punishment for the Arishok that he got his whole unit (I doubt it was the entire Qunari army parked there in Kirkwall, probably it was only soldiers immediately under the Arishok's command) caught up in to salvage his honor.  I just think you're wrong about why.  My theory is the Arishok didn't have enemies until the minute he showed weakness in losing a part of the Qun to one silly little thief, and that he would, indeed, have been welcomed back once he addressed that weakness (the Arishok does just pack up his stuff and leave once he has Isabela and the book, and while Varric hints she gets away again, I don't remember there being anything about her taking the book again).

 

Plus, losing the book would have been enough of an excuse to execute him outright.  Judging from the way the other Qunari react (or don't react) to the Arishok's death after the duel, there wouldn't have been a social uproar.  There's an argument to the be made that losing the book in the first place was sabotage, but once it was gone, the damage was done, so if someone on his side really did screw him, they left the job half done with exile, and that's not the Qunari way, either.

[Keroko]

It isn't?
 
I provide my theory, you provide yours and citations to that effect.
 
.-. You dismissing a position because you cannot find proof to negate it does not make it wrong.

No, you provide a theory backed with evidence. Throwing out just a theory and demanding others to prove you wrong while providing no evidence that supports your theory brings us back to "there's a teapot in orbit around the sun, and unless you can prove otherwise I'm right!"
 

That obviously never happened because if it had the Dalish wouldn't exist.

 
The Dalish are those that ran away and/or evaded capture. They are elves that don't live under the Chantry and defy its rules. You claim that living under the Chantry is better than living under the Qun? Well, for a human it can be. Because what are the lots in life for elves under the Chantry? Alienage, alienage or... alienage. All the while being discriminated for being an elf.
 

Yup.
 
Well it was sort of hinted at in DA 2 if you paid close attention, but TME further cemented my personal belief on the matter.
 
Their mirrors are the product of them working with demons to achieve them, one of the elder four demons of Thedas personally provides the means to unlocking them, knows more then any living soul about them and even points the intrepid band of adventurers in the right direction to find them.

 
Wait, wasn't every demon involved with eluvians we see looking to murder all elves they could get their hands on? That sounds rather different than being buddy buddy with them and helping to construct the network... not to mention that, as the eluvian network exists outside the fade, I'm having trouble seeing how the demons could have helped construct it to begin with.

Could you perhaps quote the part that talks about their creation?
 

WOT's account is WOG, aka it may come from the Chantry and may be praised in a way that is pleasing to folks from the Chantry, but its the truth of the matter.
 
Word of God is word of god.

 
Nnnno? Because even WoT still fails to adress the rather huge elephant in the room regarding elves starting the war:

Motive.

The elves have zero motive to start the war. They created an isolationist society that wanted to avoid all contact with humans. There is no reason given anywhere for the elves to start their war. Even the Chantry stories go "and suddenly, the mean elves attacked us without reason!"

The Chantry, on the other hand, does have motive for provoking such a war. Not only does their chant demand all follow the belief of the Maker, it also declares everyone worshipping other gods as sinners.
 

Well on this point you aren't exactly wrong but that could have come from many varying scenario to be honest.
 
They might have needed that time to mobilize their own forces for the campaign, they may have needed further preparation, ultimately there are many reasoning for a delay for such a short period.
 
Because if you look into our own history and even if that of Thedas, but wars are not recovered from quickly, the longer they rage, the more people that are killed, the more cities and villages are sacked, it further weakens the system.
 
No one is growing crops during a blight, no one is mining ore, no one is shipping freight, all efforts go towards defeating the blight.
 
Commerce does not flow, it is abandoned in favor of survival.
 
So sure would Orlais have recovered somewhat by that point? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be anywhere near 100%.

The second blight lasted 90 years. According to your theory, the elves had 90 years to prepare their invasion. That is an utterly illogical amount of time for people to prepare for war to begin with, and certainly does not support the idea that they needed 14 more years.

There is nothing to support the idea that the elves kept out of the second blight with the explicit purpose of invading Orlais, and everything that points against it.
 

i like that aspect of the qun everybody has a place, a job its the alternative i complain about

If the Qun was voluntarily it'd be a utopia for those who love such a rule.

But they'd make poor antagonists, given that it removes their biggest flaw and reason to be an enemy.
 

Keroko, I don't have much to say to you as I've been reading your guys' arguments all the way through and recognize you aren't really defending the Qun as superior to the Chantry, but are merely pointing out that the Qun is better than the Chantry in some ways and the Chantry is better than the Qun in many other ways, but I do think I should say this.

You really ought to read the novels. They offer a great deal of extra lore. The Stolen Throne shows the Chantry's relation to Orlais. The Calling adds new depth to the Grey Wardens, Maric, and adds a potential scandal to Alistair's story even if he is completely unaware of it and gives Loghain a perfectly logical reason to distrust the Wardens, Asunder shows the good and bad of mages and templars, and The Masked Empire goes more into Orlesian society, the major players in the Civil War, and provides a bit more lore on eluvians.

Yeah, I really should read them. They're just a tad hard to come by where I live.
 

Or he made enough political enemies that the 'Qun' 'demanded' he go on the mission. After all, while the Tome of Koslun sounds important and impressive, its exactly the sort of sentimental hofflenosh the Qun is precisely supposed to not care about, and certainly not waste an entire army to recover.

If this instruction manual was so fundamental to the Qun, surely they made copies of it no? Who cares if an older mustier copy of it was lost to the Bas, the Qunari would have perfectly legible editions back in Por Vallen to instruct with.

If anything it goes to show that, at its core, the Qun is still a religion, and prone to certain religious irrationalities

[dragonflight288]

@ Keroko. 

 

Actually, by nearly all sources, the Chantry didn't engage in the war, at least not until Val Reyeaux was threatened. 

 

I have a theory, and it's based on both the Dalish and the Orlesian/Chantry accounts, but there is no real evidence to back it up beyond the fact that I could see it happening. 

 

The Dalish claim that missionaries came to them, and they kicked them out, and then came the templars. The Chantry and Orlesians claim that the elves were kidnapping humans for heathen rituals and sacrifices (without evidence,) and that one day they just attacked Red Crossing. 

 

I can see a few religious zealots, like Petrice, trying to convert the Dalish, and when missionaries failed, templars were sent to enforce it. If these templars or zealots were stationed in a Chantry at Red Crossing, the elves may have been provoked by that group, so the elves attack Red Crossing to stop the harassment of Templars and Chantry priests. 

 

Orlais goes to war with the Dales because of the attack on Red Crossing, and everyone is shocked to find that the Dalish are kicking their butt. Then the elves get close to Val Reyeaux and the Divine calls an Exalted March, and then the Dalish lose the war, their religion made illegal, and they are told to convert or die, and then commanded to live among humans in alienages by the Chantry, who then call it a kindness that the elves simply weren't killed off entirely. 

 

That is one possibility. 

 

Another is, as you said, the case of motive. Not only does the Chantry have a motive, so too does Orlais. It's fourteen years after a blight. It takes decades for the land to recover from one. So a lot of their land is blighted and thus unusable. They need fertile ground, places to expand and place their refugees, and lo and behold, who happens to have land but the elven neighbors. 

 

That is another possibility. 

 

A third one is that fanatics on both sides enflamed the tensions and provoked a war people didn't want to be in, similar to Adrian in Asunder. 

 

Again, these are nothing more than theories without much evidence to back them up, because as far as I know, there is no real evidence in any of the lore that describes how the war started. 

 

I can see these things happen, while taking into account what we know of the time period, the individual cultures, and what each culture's motive would be.