481 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilaeth]

As soon as Sten in DA:O gave his little spiel about what women could and couldn't be in life, I knew it wasn't for me.  Heard too much of that crap growing up!

[Vita Brevis]

Care to share why it appeals to you? Is it the fact that you don't need to feel what your doing is pointless? Is it lacking purpose and the Qun gives it to you no matter what it is? Is it just the desire to belong and follow a group? Does the idea of choice and individuality seem unimportant to you? What about the Qun makes it appealing to you?

Because Qun is just. It may not be perfect, but as a teaching it's certainly better than hypocritical good for nothing andrastian faith.

But as always - the idea is appealing, the practice not so much.

[PhroXenGold]

Compared to the life we live, yes, the Qun is pretty unpleasant. Compared to the life of a peasant in Thedas, it's pretty tempting. Peasants don't have freedom anyway, they aren't losing anything joining the Qun, and while it might not be perfect, it gives them far more opportunity than the corrupt feudal system elsewhere.

[Dusksworn]

Listen to any of the Qunari parables told to the Warden by Sten. A philosophy that strive towards knowledge and wisdom is enough for me (albeit imperfect in it's lack of understanding).

 

And Andrastianism is a philosophy about being creative and original, at least in part. That's what they say the Maker's original purpose for mortals is. Making new things, and coming up with new ideas.

 

While it's very obvious that Andrastianism sort of fails in many regards, they don't make mindwiped slaves in anywhere near the same number as the Qunari. Really, there are few bad things the Chantry does that the Qun doesn't do worse.

 

However, this comparison isn't entirely fair.

 

The Chantry doesn't have absolute power over the Human kingdoms. Not every Human is a Lay Sister/Brother of the Chantry, while for the Qun... Well, every Qunari is an active and official servant of their belief system assigned a role by the head of their order.

 

So, basically... Where the Chantry has failed compared to the Qun, it has largely done so because the Chantry simply hasn't seized direct control over all facets of Human government and made everyone into Lay Sisters/Brothers or Templars/whatever. As such, the Qun and the Chantry really just can't be compared the same way. They're two very different things.

[animedreamer]

Care to share why it appeals to you? Is it the fact that you don't need to feel what your doing is pointless? Is it lacking purpose and the Qun gives it to you no matter what it is? Is it just the desire to belong and follow a group? Does the idea of choice and individuality seem unimportant to you? What about the Qun makes it appealing to you?

 

This sounds like a very American point of view, despite myself being a fellow American, and old enough to tell you that this idea of individualism does not exist even in America unless you are Already Untouchable. Tell the poor man and his family, or even the unwanted, unaccepted that they are still better off without a given measure of order, purpose, duty. Tell the 99% who want to be able to do what they want when they want, for as long as they want, they are still better off than those who call all the shots and get to live like kings. The Qun does not Lavish the few at the expense of the many. Don't get me wrong, I like living in a democracy but I didn't really have a choice, nor was one really given to me either, though if one was given to me, i probably would have taken it. Like many American's who came from a less than favorable beginning I was pretty much left to fate in terms of how i would eventually get by on my own.. The biggest hypocrisy is when people tell you your life is yours to choose what you do with, or your failures are your own. Look to many of your filthy rich and famous and tell me, they are all the pinnacle of self deserving super achievers, of whom many are famous simply because they were born with the right genetic code to make them appealing to the masses and thus have their looks bought and sold hundreds of times over for millions of dollars in endorsements, and product ads. The way the Qun works, there are 2 types of people those who need to belong to something that is certain, and those who think they should be allowed to do whatever it is they want with no consequence. 

 

I'm not sure im a advocate for the Qun, but I do believe in order, I do believe everyone should have something to belong to, a purpose, a sense of fellowship, depriving people of such things is exactly what causes the worst kind of human suffering. There is a lot about how daily life within a Qun controlled land is that is unknown to us, you'd have to see it from every potential position within that region of the world. How each follower of the Qun is treated by every other follower, if whether or not people still communicate in and out of their assigned lot. A lot of people simply jump on the negatives, and what they perceive as lack of freedoms that those within the Qun suffer from. People say there is no family within the Qun, wrong, the entire community is your family, your continued existence means their continued existence and vice versa, that is probably the most profound type of love there is. It;s funny in Dragon Age Origins we are presented a lot of different viewpoints on some of the most basic examples of humanity. Wynne says that love is ultimately selfish, while Sten says that happiness can be found by doing ones duty, and helpings ones people. Now if i had to compare to the two, helping an entire group of my fellows, or simply giving myself entirely to one person, i would have to agree with Wynne, love is selfish, and if it means I love this one person, while not feeling i need to contribute to the rest of the people around me then that looks like a negative trait to me. 

 

Think about this, the Qunari who fight, are equally responsible in protecting even the weakest Elf under the Qun, where as Banns, Arls and even Kings in other places like Ferelden seek only to protect what can be called their best interest, a lot of the time the Elves or surface Dwarves don't factor into that, especially if they are poor. The Dwarves of Orzammar are the best example of a society that could benefit greatly from the Qun. 

 

There is a lot i want to say about this, but i don't want to spend all day after getting off work thinking about fictional religions, and how many could benefit from them, that is unless im playing the game so im going to go play the game.

[Xilizhra]

This sounds like a very American point of view, despite myself being a fellow American, and old enough to tell you that this idea of individualism does not exist even in America unless you are Already Untouchable. Tell the poor man and his family, or even the unwanted, unaccepted that they are still better off without a given measure of order, purpose, duty. Tell the 99% who want to be able to do what they want when they want, for as long as they want, they are still better off than those who call all the shots and get to live like kings. The Qun does not Lavish the few at the expense of the many. Don't get me wrong, I like living in a democracy but I didn't really have a choice, nor was one really given to me either, though if one was given to me, i probably would have taken it. Like many American's who came from a less than favorable beginning I was pretty much left to fate in terms of how i would eventually get by on my own.. The biggest hypocrisy is when people tell you your life is yours to choose what you do with, or your failures are your own. Look to many of your filthy rich and famous and tell me, they are all the pinnacle of self deserving super achievers, of whom many are famous simply because they were born with the right genetic code to make them appealing to the masses and thus have their looks bought and sold hundreds of times over for millions of dollars in endorsements, and product ads. The way the Qun works, there are 2 types of people those who need to belong to something that is certain, and those who think they should be allowed to do whatever it is they want with no consequence. 

 

I'm not sure im a advocate for the Qun, but I do believe in order, I do believe everyone should have something to belong to, a purpose, a sense of fellowship, depriving people of such things is exactly what causes the worst kind of human suffering. There is a lot about how daily life within a Qun controlled land is that is unknown to us, you'd have to see it from every potential position within that region of the world. How each follower of the Qun is treated by every other follower, if whether or not people still communicate in and out of their assigned lot. A lot of people simply jump on the negatives, and what they perceive as lack of freedoms that those within the Qun suffer from. People say there is no family within the Qun, wrong, the entire community is your family, your continued existence means their continued existence and vice versa, that is probably the most profound type of love there is. It;s funny in Dragon Age Origins we are presented a lot of different viewpoints on some of the most basic examples of humanity. Wynne says that love is ultimately selfish, while Sten says that happiness can be found by doing ones duty, and helpings ones people. Now if i had to compare to the two, helping an entire group of my fellows, or simply giving myself entirely to one person, i would have to agree with Wynne, love is selfish, and if it means I love this one person, while not feeling i need to contribute to the rest of the people around me then that looks like a negative trait to me. 

 

Think about this, the Qunari who fight, are equally responsible in protecting even the weakest Elf under the Qun, where as Banns, Arls and even Kings in other places like Ferelden seek only to protect what can be called their best interest, a lot of the time the Elves or surface Dwarves don't factor into that, especially if they are poor. The Dwarves of Orzammar are the best example of a society that could benefit greatly from the Qun. 

 

There is a lot i want to say about this, but i don't want to spend all day after getting off work thinking about fictional religions, and how many could benefit from them, that is unless im playing the game so im going to go play the game.

I'd say that parochialism and groupism are more selfish than love, for in them, you advocate solely for the people who are like you. The qunari only love their fellows because all exist as part of the same machine; there's only disdain and disregard for those who exist outside the machine. They're mere things to the qunari, either converts or targets, or simple obstacles.

[Tarvesh]

This sounds like a very American point of view, despite myself being a fellow American, and old enough to tell you that this idea of individualism does not exist even in America unless you are Already Untouchable. Tell the poor man and his family, or even the unwanted, unaccepted that they are still better off without a given measure of order, purpose, duty. Tell the 99% who want to be able to do what they want when they want, for as long as they want, they are still better off than those who call all the shots and get to live like kings. The Qun does not Lavish the few at the expense of the many. Don't get me wrong, I like living in a democracy but I didn't really have a choice, nor was one really given to me either, though if one was given to me, i probably would have taken it. Like many American's who came from a less than favorable beginning I was pretty much left to fate in terms of how i would eventually get by on my own.. The biggest hypocrisy is when people tell you your life is yours to choose what you do with, or your failures are your own. Look to many of your filthy rich and famous and tell me, they are all the pinnacle of self deserving super achievers, of whom many are famous simply because they were born with the right genetic code to make them appealing to the masses and thus have their looks bought and sold hundreds of times over for millions of dollars in endorsements, and product ads. The way the Qun works, there are 2 types of people those who need to belong to something that is certain, and those who think they should be allowed to do whatever it is they want with no consequence.

I'm not sure im a advocate for the Qun, but I do believe in order, I do believe everyone should have something to belong to, a purpose, a sense of fellowship, depriving people of such things is exactly what causes the worst kind of human suffering. There is a lot about how daily life within a Qun controlled land is that is unknown to us, you'd have to see it from every potential position within that region of the world. How each follower of the Qun is treated by every other follower, if whether or not people still communicate in and out of their assigned lot. A lot of people simply jump on the negatives, and what they perceive as lack of freedoms that those within the Qun suffer from. People say there is no family within the Qun, wrong, the entire community is your family, your continued existence means their continued existence and vice versa, that is probably the most profound type of love there is. It;s funny in Dragon Age Origins we are presented a lot of different viewpoints on some of the most basic examples of humanity. Wynne says that love is ultimately selfish, while Sten says that happiness can be found by doing ones duty, and helpings ones people. Now if i had to compare to the two, helping an entire group of my fellows, or simply giving myself entirely to one person, i would have to agree with Wynne, love is selfish, and if it means I love this one person, while not feeling i need to contribute to the rest of the people around me then that looks like a negative trait to me.

Think about this, the Qunari who fight, are equally responsible in protecting even the weakest Elf under the Qun, where as Banns, Arls and even Kings in other places like Ferelden seek only to protect what can be called their best interest, a lot of the time the Elves or surface Dwarves don't factor into that, especially if they are poor. The Dwarves of Orzammar are the best example of a society that could benefit greatly from the Qun.

There is a lot i want to say about this, but i don't want to spend all day after getting off work thinking about fictional religions, and how many could benefit from them, that is unless im playing the game so im going to go play the game.

This sounds like someone who isn't considering that, in America, no one is stopping anyone from being successful. The only hinderance to success in America is you and your willingness to succeed. You're also not considering that Americans enjoy the highest standard of living in the history of the world. Your average middle class family lives a very rich life by the standards of almost any other nation even today. We don't see it that way because in our society, we're middle class and we can only compare ourselves to what we see around us. And all that is thanks to the modern day process of being to work towards success in a casteless society where all men are created equal and have equal opportunity (whether you take advantage of that opportunity is the true difference between your successful and unsuccessful individuals).

In Thedas, it's rare for anyone, no matter how good a worker or their willingness to work to succeed in life, to move beyond the station they born into. Feudal societies had little to no room for such things. And the common man couldn't move beyond his station in life because I his low birth, lack of noble blood, was born into disgrace, poverty, or any number or things that weren't noble or high born. They don't have rights, they can be denied work and services based on their station, their sex, color, etc.

The Qun ignores everything about except what you're good at. And in that, they let you shine. You will be fed, housed, and be taken care if spiritually and physically. This is appealing to people who live in a feudal society. But it's not so appealing to the modern mind set where you can achieve fame and fortune through hard work and a willingness to succeed.

[animedreamer]

I'd say that parochialism and groupism are more selfish than love, for in them, you advocate solely for the people who are like you. The qunari only love their fellows because all exist as part of the same machine; there's only disdain and disregard for those who exist outside the machine. They're mere things to the qunari, either converts or targets, or simple obstacles.

 

I disagree, the Qunari make it perfectly clear, if they only cared about themselves and those like them they would be like the people they are usually fighting against (Think about what Tevinter is). They wouldn't spend time trying to convert others. Even when they aren't trying to convert others the ideas they uphold to spread to those around them, and they come in droves looking for acceptance into the Qun (why would people do this if where they came from was already ideal, or even offered them something worth staying for) and they are granted it, no questions asked. If the Qunari truly believed in the ideas you quoted, they would isolate themselves from the world, and try to keep others out, instead they search the world looking to understand those around them and SHOW THEM A BETTER WAY. The Nation that must be.... 

[Revelat0]

This sounds like someone who isn't considering that, in America, no one is stopping anyone from being successful. The only hinderance to success in America is you and your willingness to succeed. You're also not considering that Americans enjoy the highest standard of living in the history of the world. Your average middle class family lives a very rich life by the standards of almost any other nation even today. We don't see it that way because in our society, we're middle class and we can only cAnd all that is thanks to the modern day process of being to work towards success in a casteless society.

In Thedas, it's rare for anyone, no matter how good a worker or their willingness to work to succeed in life, to move beyond the station they born into. Feudal societies had little to no room for such things. And the common man couldn't move beyond his station in life because I his low birth, lack of noble blood, was born into disgrace, poverty, or any number or things that weren't noble or high born.

I agree, and you make a good point, in Thedas the standard of living is so low because people in the societies are not part of a booming economy yet, people in feudal societies are too busy trying to survive instead of thrive. Thriving comes when people begin to meet necessities in life, food, shelter, and education. Thedas ain't at that renaissance point yet, although they are close by DA:I, I'd say probably about 1400s era.

[Xilizhra]

I disagree, the Qunari make it perfectly clear, if they only cared about themselves and those like them they would be like the people they are usually fighting against (Think about what Tevinter is). They wouldn't spend time trying to convert others. Even when they aren't trying to convert others the ideas they uphold to spread to those around them, and they come in droves looking for acceptance into the Qun, and they are granted it, no questions asked. If the Qunari truly believed in the ideas you quoted, they would isolate themselves from the world, and try to keep others out, instead they search the world looking to understand those around them and SHOW THEM A BETTER WAY. The Nation that must be.... 

The Qun is a machine that demands conformity and territory. They waste nothing; adding things to the machine is more efficient than destroying them and making new qunari.

 

Also, people who don't see the "better way" will either be murdered or mindraped and enslaved.

[Jaison1986]

This sounds like someone who isn't considering that, in America, no one is stopping anyone from being successful. The only hinderance to success in America is you and your willingness to succeed. You're also not considering that Americans enjoy the highest standard of living in the history of the world. Your average middle class family lives a very rich life by the standards of almost any other nation even today. We don't see it that way because in our society, we're middle class and we can only cAnd all that is thanks to the modern day process of being to work towards success in a casteless society.

In Thedas, it's rare for anyone, no matter how good a worker or their willingness to work to succeed in life, to move beyond the station they born into. Feudal societies had little to no room for such things. And the common man couldn't move beyond his station in life because I his low birth, lack of noble blood, was born into disgrace, poverty, or any number or things that weren't noble or high born.

 

Me coming from Brazil, I can tell it's true. You could say my family lives an lifestyle similar to an middle class american, and we needed to work really hard just to get were we are, and we still need to spend our money wisely even so. Most people who live here aren't so lucky.

 

As for the topic itself, the qun is very polarized. It's almost perfect in one side, and outright terrible in the other. There is an appeal to an defined society, were there is no difference, were there is goal and a granted future. The problem the prices the qunari pay to get there are too high most of the time. You have no choice, almost no life, no family, you're children are not your own. It's almost like they want you to be an robot. What kind of life is that? Never mind their primitive treatment of mages, for all their wisdom, the way the qunari treat their mage make them look like savage animals to me.

[Lilaeth]

The Qun is a machine that demands conformity and territory. They waste nothing; adding things to the machine is more efficient than destroying them and making new qunari.

 

Also, people who don't see the "better way" will either be murdered or mindraped and enslaved.

The Qun are The Borg.

[Revelat0]

The Qun are The Borg.

lol, maybe a stepping stone toward them, the Qun lack the apprehension to achieve that level of unified thought, as it would require technology that the Borg have, or a massive understanding of Blood Magic and mind control, which the Qunari people fear anyway. If the Qun did reach that level they would also be like the Darkspawn.

 

Yet, that may be a theme that David Gaider and the team were trying to portray... Individualism versus Collectivism. There are certainly enough examples in their many different stages.

[Navasha]

A lot of the people who seem to think the Qun is good, simply dismiss all the negatives which FAR outweigh any benefits.    They believe that they can live just like they do in a free society except everyone gets to be equal.   

 

Trust me, if ANY of these people actually lived in a society like the Qun in real life, they would be hating every moment of their lives.     Part of freedom is the ability to take for granted all the benefits of freedom and just focus on the negatives.

 

Everyone being equal is pretty meaningless when that equality means you are little more than robotic cattle. 

[raging_monkey]

A lot of the people who seem to think the Qun is good, simply dismiss all the negatives which FAR outweigh any benefits.    They believe that they can live just like they do in a free society except everyone gets to be equal.    Trust me, if ANY of these people actually lived in a society like the Qun in real life, they would be hating every moment of their lives.     Part of freedom is the ability to take for granted all the benefits of freedom and just focus on the negatives. Everyone being equal is pretty meaningless when that equality means you are little more than robotic cattle.

sounds like mental slavery to me

[Wissenschaft]

The Qun is just another caste society, but the castes are not necessarily determined by birth.  Your life is determined almost solely by external locus.  While this is also true for Andrastian society (and our society, for that matter), in the Qun it's written in stone.

 

Basically, if you ever want things to change in Thedas to the point society is like ours, the Qun is out of the picture.  The Qun completely stifles social mobility and free will.

 

Exactly, to me the Qun is just another Caste system. Dwarven society is another Caste system. Why would I prefer a caste system that essentially requires its members not to think for themselves but be brainwashed drones that do only what their role demands.

[Medhia_Nox]

Well, I cannot say I "Love" the Qun - and I'm not sure what I would feel about being part of it.

 

Would I mind being a farmer?  No, not at all.  Would I hate being a miner?  Yes, absolutely. 

 

However - I have the impression that you're given aptitude tests early on and you're put into training suited to you.  I am told schools in Germany actually have a similar approach - and I don't think that's horrible.  "Suited to you" can - and should - take into account enjoyment.  Productivity would suffer if a person hated their "life calling".  

 

The Saarebas fascinate me storywise.  That the one saarebas we get to talk to truly believes in the worth of what's been done to him fascinates me more.  I don't instantly jump to "brainwashing" just because I disagree with it.  I would prefer it if the hint that "Saarebas are treated with respect." were true.  Putting someone into that state - but then pampering them with fame and luxury would provide a unique take. 

 

And I do not hold individuality in high regard - at all.  Individuality is only a convenience of safety and luxury - and my opinion is that it's largely wasted.

 

Also - you simply cannot argue against the success of hive insects - and exploring this in a sapient species is interesting to me.

[Wissenschaft]

Yeah, if the Qun's respect involves putting leashes and muzzles on their mages and requires them to commit suicide if they lose their handler then they can keep their "respect" for it means nothing.

[TheKomandorShepard]

A lot of the people who seem to think the Qun is good, simply dismiss all the negatives which FAR outweigh any benefits.    They believe that they can live just like they do in a free society except everyone gets to be equal.   

 

Trust me, if ANY of these people actually lived in a society like the Qun in real life, they would be hating every moment of their lives.     Part of freedom is the ability to take for granted all the benefits of freedom and just focus on the negatives.

 

Everyone being equal is pretty meaningless when that equality means you are little more than robotic cattle. 

What negatives? i can see only lack of freedom as negative but pretty much every society takes you freedom and demands to adapt to it otherwise you will be punished for being different in one way or another...

 

Unlike all other societies in thedas qunari won't abuse you as i said and it isn't that qunari live badly if that was in case peoples like slaves or city elves wouldn't see it as better alternative.

 

Besides as i said qunari are the most technologically advanced and prospering culture in entire setting pretty much large positives add to that low corruption.

 

If you are willing give up your freedom and pretty much as i said you forced into that in every society you can gain something.

[Wissenschaft]

What negatives? i can see only lack of freedom as negative but pretty much every society takes you freedom and demands to adapt to it otherwise you will be punished for being different in one way or another...

 

Unlike all other societies in thedas qunari won't abuse you as i said and it isn't that qunari live badly if that was in case peoples like slaves or city elves wouldn't see it as better alternative.

 

 

Another negative is you don't get to choose your role. Its determined for you. Theres seemingly a lack of romantic love in Qunari society as well. So if thats important, its out the window. It seems likely that homosexuality also isn't tolerated because it serves no purpose (no reproduction is possible).

Qunari pretty much wish to turn most people into unthinking drones much like an ant hill. It can make society a well functioning machine but I'd rather not live in it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Another negative is you don't get to choose your role. Its determined for you. Theres seemingly a lack of romantic love in Qunari society as well. So if thats important, its out the window. It seems likely that homosexuality also isn't tolerated because it serves no purpose (no reproduction is possible).

Qunari pretty much wish to turn most people into unthinking drones much like an ant hill. It can make society a well functioning machine but I'd rather not live in it.

And that isn't another negative it is that one i have mentioned lack of freedom but pretty much same can be said about other societies just read human inq backstory.There is love but from what i remember they separate sex from love.

 

Well to be honest as i said same can be said about any society even our but even just reach to our history "why this guy rule us?" "because god says that".
  

[Gtdef]

I like the Qunari but I wouldn't join them. I'd love to face them in battle though. They are the picture of excellence, order and efficiency. There is no more worthy foe than them. And being glib in their face about defeating them would be the ultimate reward.

[Wissenschaft]

I like the Qunari but I wouldn't join them. I'd love to face them in battle though. They are the picture of excellence, order and efficiency. There is no more worthy foe than them. And being glib in their face about defeating them would be the ultimate reward.

 

Hahaha, yup, this is why the duel vs the Arishok is the best part of DA 2.