481 réponses à ce sujet

[The Baconer]

Qunari do not buy and sell things amongst one another. Of course how they might trade with other societies is a different matter.

[prosthetic soul]

I would gladly submit to the Qun if it meant I could be a dedicated breeder.  I mean, someone's got to carry on the race right?

[Super Drone]

1. Matches were, however, entirely arranged ahead of time and not subject to individual choice.

 

2. The dismantling of the family was counteracted with complete obedience to an all-powerful patriarch.

 

3. You got me there. They just tended to kill dissenters.

 

4. That's just a part of conquest in Thedas.

 

1. The ethics of arranged marriages aside, at least they were matches. The couple could grow to love one another and form a family unit to balance out how god-awful the rest of their life is.

 

2. Meh. That Patriarch was still your father or grandfather. He still had to look you in the eye at breakfast. He was not a passive beauracracy that didn't actually know you as anything but a number on a ledger.

 

3. I'd prefer death... just sayin'

 

4. Two wrongs and all that... well, Nine Wrongs in this case...

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Because the weak do not deserve free will

[Gtdef]

 

How did i imply that he made this decision out of vengeance? Theres a difference between attacking someone only out of a personal vendetta and then theres attacking someone so you arent attacked again. Inconsequential? I think you forgot the part where Aveline left him two choices, turn in the suspects (which he wouldnt do because the qun demands they stay for conversion) or be attacked. He didnt choose to attack the city he reacted to a situation where he was left with one choice. Plus from the perceptive of a qunari, "cleansing" a city as corrupt as Kirkwall is in no way inconsequential, it is exactly what the qun demands.

 

Your argument was that he was attacked while he was sitting there doing nothing. That's why I made the assumption about "vengeance". I still think it's the only possible reason. And there was a third option. Just leave. The book isn't here, the Qun demands that the book is returned. It's the only reason the Arishok is in Kirkwall. He doesn't even have to compromise. Instead of attacking Kirkwall he can just make an exodus. I doubt that Kirkwall authorities would go after him. I'm not going to continue debating this. The Arishok leads the expedition to return the book, and when there is only one choice to be made about how to continue searching for the book, he instead decided to disregard it and played the conqueror. 

 

He himself says earlier that dealing with Kirkwall's mess isn't a demand of the Qun and we should be grateful, and then he says that he is still thinking about it (which indicates personal preference I guess, after all isn't the word of the Qun the law?). He either lies, or you are wrong. Choose one. 

 

 

 

Because im defending my point im bias? I've supported my points with legitimate evidence and facts, regardless to whether im a fan of the Arishok, that shouldnt diminish what im saying. Well when the writing of Bioware affects what happenes, yes i think its fair to bring up why the outcome occurred. As i mentioned above, taking the city is quite the opposite of straying from his duty which is always primarily the quns demands.

 

Irony isnt dependent on opinion, so im still not sure you understand what the irony is. Can i ask what the irony was?

 

No, I said that because you disregarded the facts in the game and bring external factors into play. If the discussion is about what Bioware could have done better I'm all up for it. There are two ways to see this, yours, that the writing is subpar, and mine, that the writing indicates that the Arishok got afflicted with a severe case of impatience and costed him everything. Which is the irony. And as it seems, it's an opinion as well. The mighty and virtuous Arishok, dealt with 4 years of hardship, only to go berserk and break his teeth and end up making "promises" for his successor.

 

But in any case, the reason I called you biased is because you did too when I have a perfectly good reason for my stance. If I was biased providing examples inside the game, what are you for blaming this on the game's foundation? I agree that the game has flawed writing but it's a different topic. It is what it is. I'm not here to study the stratagems of the Arishok. I'm just here to comment on the game.

 

 

 

He completely defeated the city guard, it was outside help that changed the outcome, whether they could have beaten the handful of mages and templars is up for debate.

 

Yes they did "win" they successfully invaded the upper half of Thedas, it was 55 years after the fact that they were pushed back and even then Thedas could only settle on a treaty.

 

You may be right on the account of the city guard, can't be sure. In game there is a lack of information.

 

Ehm, and how this qualifies as winning? They were pushed back in the end. I didn't say they lost. But I don't think this qualifies as winning. After all most of the converted population was slaughtered. I'm either missing info or you are exaggerating.

 

Now as for the Qunari vs the whole Thedas thing, I'm not sure how this works. I assume that the Qunari involved in the attack are more numerous than the armies of 2 human countries. I'll reserve judgement on this though till I have more info.

 

Edit: Typos, damn wall of texts.. ^^

[Super Drone]

How this imply that there aren't Merchants? Even if those inside the society aren't, the one who trade with the rest of Thedas are still Merchants.

 

The context was the Arishok telling you what you could shp for. I said there was no shopping, and Merchants aren't what humans think of them as. The rest was all you.

[Super Drone]

That seems to be wrong as Sten explicitly talks about Qunari merchants.

 No, Sten talks about Merchants as a role, in the context of human society. "Your farmers try to be merchants, you merchants try to be...." He was equating Merchants to a role, which from his understanding makes sense. None of that implies Qunari have merchants as we understand them, or money.

 

The don't. Whay would they?

[The Elder King]

The context was the Arishok telling you what you could shp for. I said there was no shopping, and Merchants aren't what humans think of them as. The rest was all you.

It wasn't. I responded to the part of your post where you said that there aren't Merchants. I said they were. I never said that Merchants exist for their owns needs.

[Super Drone]

It wasn't. I responded to the part of your post where you said that there aren't Merchants. I said they were. I never said that Merchants exist for their owns needs.

 

 No. I said "Merchants as bas know them..." don't exist in Qunari Society.  All of that is true.

[The Elder King]

No. I said "Merchants as bas know them..." don't exist in Qunari Society.  All of that is true.

So qunari Merchant that trades with other countries isn't part of their society?

[Super Drone]

So qunari Merchant that trades with other countries isn't part of their society?

 

I would argue spies and intelligence gatherers masquerading as traders stretch the definition of Merchant.

[Gtdef]

The lore is pretty clear on this. Qunari don't have currency and don't banter. Their "merchants" are distributors and various qunari merchants in Thedas are information gatherers.

[The Elder King]

I would argue spies and intelligence gatherers masquerading as traders stretch the definition of Merchant.

  

The lore is pretty clear on this. Qunari don't have currency and don't banter. Their "merchants" are distributors and various qunari merchants in Thedas are information gatherers.

The wiki mentioned they trade in a limited manners, and it's never said that that the information they get is through spying.
It's irrelevant the goal of their trade. They still trade. They're Merchants.
The Qun have their own spies, and they aren't called 'Merchants' by them.

[Ailith Tycane]

I imagine it's probably the same reason that high school or early college kids love the idea of communism when they first read something by Marx. 

[Gtdef]

"The Qunari reject private property. They also don't have currency, nor do they engage in direct bartering: they don't buy and sell things amongst one another. "Merchants" in Qunari cities have the job of making sure goods are distributed appropriately. They will however, trade with the rest of Thedas in a limited matter. To the Qunari, this trade is less a way to obtain goods as an opportunity to learn more about those who do not yet accept the Qun as law."
 

 

That's what the wiki says. I didn't say that they are spies. Spying implies deception and invasive ways to gather information. These "merchants" sound like observers taking note of different cultures. Don't think there is much room for interpretation. Since they don't have currency and don't banter, they don't have a reason to be merchants among themselves. But they can't interact like this with other cultures that have traditional merchants.

[SerCambria358]

Your argument was that he was attacked while he was sitting there doing nothing. That's why I made the assumption about "vengeance". I still think it's the only possible reason. And there was a third option. Just leave. The book isn't here, the Qun demands that the book is returned. It's the only reason the Arishok is in Kirkwall. He doesn't even have to compromise. Instead of attacking Kirkwall he can just make an exodus. I doubt that Kirkwall authorities would go after him. I'm not going to continue debating this. The Arishok leads the expedition to return the book, and when there is only one choice to be made about how to continue searching for the book, he instead decided to disregard it and played the conqueror. 

 

He himself says earlier that dealing with Kirkwall's mess isn't a demand of the Qun and we should be grateful, and then he says that he is still thinking about it. He either lies, or you are wrong. Choose one. 

1.) Vengeance...you still think he attacked purely out of vengeance? That makes no sense and as for leaving, he already explained that he couldnt leave without the book or he'd be deemed unfit to lead, that was clearly stated. So there goes that third option, then theres returning the suspects which he also coudlnt do under the doctrine of the qun, and finally theres retaliate against someone who's threatening to use force against you, which he did.

 

He says that because it wasnt his priority, that clearly changed when the qamek was stolen, was almost victim to a false flag incident, and was confronted by the entire city guard

 

 

2.)How does bringing up plot convenience conclude that i think the writers are subpar? I completely understand why Arishok had to lose (if you didnt hand of Isabella), that would ruin the entire point of playing Hawke, but that doesnt mean the outcome didnt occur only out of what the writers decided rather than the facts we've been supplied with before. This is seen all the time in order to progress the story. Facts are however that a 7ft qunari trained his entire life for battle while a peasant who only recently became involved heavily in combat meet to fight, you can clearly see why a duel of all scenarios should only have one outcome but because our hero cant lose, irony (actual non opinionated irony) ensues

 

Speaking of irony, that is not what you were referring to at all when you initially said it, you were not referring to him losing. "Everything he says with his dying breath is irony" nothing he said was ironic by definition, opinion does not change that fact

 

3.)How did they not win? They invaded and settled in tevinter for 55 years, but because they were eventually pushed out of tevinter, that concludes they they didnt initially perform a successful invasion? Thats like saying Rome never successfully created an empire because they were later broken up or Alexander never successfully invaded parts of asia and the middle east because he later died

[Willowhugger]

The Arishok was caught in a trap. He couldn't return home if he didn't have the book and he couldn't find the damn book after years of searching.

So he triggered a Qunari invasion of Kirkwall and possibly all of Thedas.

At least that way he could get out of the Purgatory he was in, even if it began a Second Qunari Invasion.

[Ailith Tycane]

The Arishok was a dick head, but his reaction to invade Kirkwall was one of emotion, not "duty to the Qun." He was pissed off and tired of waiting, so he started a war. Just goes to show even Qunari are not immune to emotional outbursts. 

[SerCambria358]

The Arishok was a dick head, but his reaction to invade Kirkwall was one of emotion, not "duty to the Qun." He was pissed off and tired of waiting, so he started a war. Just goes to show even Qunari are not immune to emotional outbursts. 

No, when Aveline gave him the option to hand over the suspects "or else" he was pretty much given the only choice. The Qun would not allow for him to turn in the converts meaning fighting was the clear choice, it doesnt help that he hates the city anyways. 

[Sir DeLoria]

Yeah, no thanks, I'm a proud individualist...

So screw you, Qun!

[Tarvesh]

@Tarvesh:  May I make an genuine inquiry.  Are you a white, straight male?

You may ask. And I am not. Why?

[Ailith Tycane]

No, when Aveline gave him the option to hand over the suspects "or else" he was pretty much given the only choice. The Qun would not allow for him to turn in the converts meaning fighting was the clear choice, it doesnt help that he hates the city anyways. 

 

Well he's not an idiot, he should understand he can't just sit in a city and break it's laws without conflict. He did it on purpose because he was a gigantic baby, lol. 

 

I just don't understand how people romanticize him and the Qun so much when they're both so fundamentally flawed. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ailith Tycane:  The same way people romanticize the elves, or the mages, or Celene, or Gaspard... or whomever it is they like.

[Ailith Tycane]

@Ailith Tycane:  The same way people romanticize the elves, or the mages, or Celene, or Gaspard... or whomever it is they like.

 

Exactly...

 

Did you think I would disagree somehow? lol

 

 

@Tarvesh:  May I make an genuine inquiry.  Are you a white, straight male?

 

It doesn't matter was their race or orientation is, their point is still demonstrably wrong in multiple ways. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ailith Tycane:  Nope.