481 réponses à ce sujet

[SerCambria358]

Well he's not an idiot, he should understand he can't just sit in a city and break it's laws without conflict. He did it on purpose because he was a gigantic baby, lol. 

 

I just don't understand how people romanticize him and the Qun so much when they're both so fundamentally flawed. 

So you're one of those people, anyways he didnt choose for the suspects to convert thereby forcing him to take them into his care, he didnt choose for people to steal their chemical weapons, he didnt choose for part of the chantry to try and false flag the qunari. He had more patience than most and in the end it was a technicality in his philosophy that forced him into a fight.

 

Calling him a baby because he retaliated to clear corruption is just a comment out of spite. 

[Navasha]

I would assume that the 'lure' of the Qun is basically the same as the lure of 'collectivist' societies in our world.   There is the erroneous belief by people that they can all be equal and share in the wealth that everyone else seems to enjoy, but not have to work for it.    Those people don't tend to realize that the choice of being lazy is only available in a free system.   

 

If you were to live in a society like the Qun and don't meet your productivity quota, then you would simply be killed.   There  is no efficiency in keeping people alive who consume more resources than they provide to the society.    They would "serve" society as an example of what happens when you don't do your 'share'.   There is also zero motivation to ever over-produce above your quota either in these societies.    Thus why in such societies they are pretty much dominated by extreme poverty.     There would be no infirm/lazy/elderly in Qunari society.    They would simply be killed when they are no longer capable of contributing to society.

[Gtdef]

1.) Vengeance...you still think he attacked purely out of vengeance? That makes no sense and as for leaving, he already explained that he couldnt leave without the book or he'd be deemed unfit to lead, that was clearly stated. So there goes that third option, then theres returning the suspects which he also coudlnt do under the doctrine of the qun, and finally theres retaliate against someone who's threatening to use force against you, which he did.

 

He says that because it wasnt his priority, that clearly changed when the qamek was stolen, was almost victim to a false flag incident, and was confronted by the entire city guard

 

 

2.)How does bringing up plot convenience conclude that i think the writers are subpar? I completely understand why Arishok had to lose (if you didnt hand of Isabella), that would ruin the entire point of playing Hawke, but that doesnt mean the outcome didnt occur only out of what the writers decided rather than the facts we've been supplied with before. This is seen all the time in order to progress the story. Facts are however that a 7ft qunari trained his entire life for battle while a peasant who only recently became involved heavily in combat meet to fight, you can clearly see why a duel of all scenarios should only have one outcome but because our hero cant lose, irony (actual non opinionated irony) ensues

 

Speaking of irony, that is not what you were referring to at all when you initially said it, you were not referring to him losing. "Everything he says with his dying breath is irony" nothing he said was ironic by definition, opinion does not change that fact

 

3.)How did they not win? They invaded and settled in tevinter for 55 years, but because they were eventually pushed out of tevinter, that concludes they they didnt initially perform a successful invasion? Thats like saying Rome never successfully created an empire because they were later broken up or Alexander never successfully invaded parts of asia and the middle east because he later died

 

1. I didn't say to go back to Par Vollen, I said to leave the city and go after Isabela. He has knowledge of this. And no, nothing "clearly" changed. Kirkwall authorities supported the Arishok. Hawke dealt with the gas, the chantry condemned Petrice and the guard had a right to confront him, even if the elves were in the right. Unless the ground the Arishok stands is "sovereign qunari territory". 

 

2. My problem with his final words is because of what came before. When I say that I don't literally mean that his last few words are the irony. They add to the irony. That's why I said I have a different opinion. My problem here isn't that Hawke beat the Arishok in single combat. It's that I think that everything Arishok did from the moment Aveline speaks to him is a huge mistake due to impatience and bad decision making. I've stated this multiple times and explained it when you quoted me saying "Arishok failed at every level". It's the punchline to the joke that he became after this point in the game. This is my opinion. I assumed that you knew this since it's typed.

 

3. It's not the same. Alexander for example didn't lose anything. After his death the "kingdom" broke into pieces because they didn't want to decide on one successor. The settled qunari were either driven away or were slaughtered. That's when the conflict ended. The didn't lose their hold in northern thedas due to infighting after settling there. Also I'm referring to the conflict with the united Thedas. Sure I agree that their initial attack was successful. I don't dispute this. Although I'm under the impression that the resistance of Rivain and Antiva wasn't that impressive. But whatever. Doesn't matter much.

[Battlebloodmage]

Because one minute I'm the qun, but suddenly the qun is me.

 

 

On a more serious note, while I find the Qun to be horrible in real life if we based it on our moral compass. In the time of war and despair, brain washing and false hope are actually some of the best strategies for winning. The Qun are willing to die for their belief, and they recruit and brainwash the outcast from other cultures. There is no racism, and everything is systematic and bureaucracy. In term of World War II, they combine the tenacity of the Japanese, the solid regime of the Nazi... I don't know what the Hell Italy is doing in World War II. Unlike the Axis Power, they don't discriminate against anyone in their society and would be willing to let anyone be a part of them instead of an exclusive club like the Ferelden and Tevinter who treat elves as slaves and second class citizen.

[SerCambria358]

1. I didn't say to go back to Par Vollen, I said to leave the city and go after Isabela. He has knowledge of this. And no, nothing "clearly" changed. Kirkwall authorities supported the Arishok. Hawke dealt with the gas, the chantry condemned Petrice and the guard had a right to confront him, even if the elves were in the right. Unless the ground the Arishok stands is "sovereign qunari territory". 

 

2. My problem with his final words is because of what came before. When I say that I don't literally mean that his last few words are the irony. They add to the irony. That's why I said I have a different opinion. My problem here isn't that Hawke beat the Arishok in single combat. It's that I think that everything Arishok did from the moment Aveline speaks to him is a huge mistake due to impatience and bad decision making. I've stated this multiple times and explained it when you quoted me saying "Arishok failed at every level". It's the punchline to the joke that he became after this point in the game. This is my opinion. I assumed that you knew this since it's typed.

 

3. It's not the same. Alexander for example didn't lose anything. After his death the "kingdom" broke into pieces because they didn't want to decide on one successor. The settled qunari were either driven away or were slaughtered. That's when the conflict ended. The didn't lose their hold in northern thedas due to infighting after settling there. Also I'm referring to the conflict with the united Thedas. Sure I agree that their initial attack was successful. I don't dispute this. Although I'm under the impression that the resistance of Rivain and Antiva wasn't that impressive. But whatever. Doesn't matter much.

And where do you suggest they'd land, you cant take a large group of qunari on a man hunt around thedas without the surrounding countries consenting, this would be a clear violation. The qunari were forced onto a small city state because of a storm, which was understood, but to just go anywhere they please would not be understood by everyone. Just because the problems were fixed does not mean they didnt leave a negative impact, he was stuck there 4 years losing men to both killings and to the Tal Vashoth, had to deal with multiple attacks, of course that changes the state of which they're in

 

You cant expect people to just understand what should be taken literally or not, when you intially state your problem with someones threats, then say they were ironic, of course im going to assume that you're only talking about what he said in the threat. Plus how does giving a last dying threat add to irony? He warns of an invasion after being defeated. Theres nothing to imply the contrary will happen therefore irony is not present.

 

But the greeks established an empire and sustained it till it eventually broke apart, the qunari established themselves in thedas until they were pushed north, so by your logic, alexanders empire was never successful only because it eventually ended. They won the first engagement and forced the second into a stalemate where they gave up what they initially "won". Losing a second engagement in any situation doesnt erase the previous victory.

[Keroko]

There is no shopping. You are provided with what the Qun demands you be provided with. "Merchants" as bas know them do not exist in Qunari society, the closest thing to it are resources managers.

Weeeell, since I seem to have created quite a stir with what I thought was a simple example, let's try something different:

That sounds a tad stricter than what I've read about the Qun so far. I don't believe the Qun is so strict that you need to consult your daily walks with the Arishok.

Because I'll point out, again, that as much as people keep harping on the Tal-Vashoth and claim the qunari are falling apart, the qunari history is filled with examples where the Chantry found it very hard to convert people back to the Andrastian faith. As in, entire populations converted the Qun and liked it so much they refused to go back to the Chantry's religion even after the lands were firmly back into human hands to the point where they chose death over converting back.

That does not sound like a super-opressive "there's no way anyone not koslith can live in this" way of living to me.

2. My problem with his final words is because of what came before. When I say that I don't literally mean that his last few words are the irony. They add to the irony. That's why I said I have a different opinion. My problem here isn't that Hawke beat the Arishok in single combat. It's that I think that everything Arishok did from the moment Aveline speaks to him is a huge mistake due to impatience and bad decision making. I've stated this multiple times and explained it when you quoted me saying "Arishok failed at every level". It's the punchline to the joke that he became after this point in the game. This is my opinion. I assumed that you knew this since it's typed.

I'd like to point out that this is Hawke we're talking about. The guy who single-handedly slaughters entire armies. The Arishok losing to him after arguably one of the toughest fights in the game is not exactly a mark of disrespect.

[introverted_assassin]

There are some really utopian views about America in here. How many of you are minorities? Cause I'm not sure we grew up in the same place. God I hate being the one that has to mention that on here. That's twice and the week just started. Blah.

I do not necessarily agree with the Qun or rather what I know of it thus far. And I think it has everything to do with choice and that whole "stay within the lines" mentality that SEEMS to be attributed to following the Qun. Beyond that, I can't say much cause we have yet to visit their land to get an accurate feel of it all. I feel like the Qun would work in a world full of ideas. And as Izzy so implicitly pointed out, not their world and certainly not in ours.

[Battlebloodmage]

Weeeell, since I seem to have created quite a stir with what I thought was a simple example, let's try something different:

That sounds a tad stricter than what I've read about the Qun so far. I don't believe the Qun is so strict that you need to consult your daily walks with the Arishok.

Because I'll point out, again, that as much as people keep harping on the Tal-Vashoth and claim the qunari are falling apart, the qunari history is filled with examples where the Chantry found it very hard to convert people back to the Andrastian faith. As in, entire populations converted the Qun and liked it so much they refused to go back to the Chantry's religion even after the lands were firmly back into human hands to the point where they chose death over converting back.

That does not sound like a super-opressive "there's no way anyone not koslith can live in this" way of living to me.


I'd like to point out that this is Hawke we're talking about. The guy who single-handedly slaughters entire armies. The Arishok losing to him after arguably one of the toughest fights in the game is not exactly a mark of disrespect.

Just to point out. You may remember Brother Burkel, a man of faith who introduced the Chantry into the Dwarven society. The result of that was exactly like the one you described where people would die before converting. It was exactly what happened if the Chantry did establish in Orzammar. The dwarves start a revolution and would die fighting the government than worship the paragons again. 

 

While I have nothing against the Qun and find it a very practical culture for the world of Dragon Age. Faith and religion are very irrational in nature, people are always searching for the truth, and that truth could come in the form of the teaching of Chantry or the teaching of the Qun, it doesn't matter. When you introduce a new idea to a society, you are introducing it to the people who are seekers for that new idea, not those who have already found it within that society, so of course they would rather die than convert back because those seekers were either searching for a new truth or don't even believe in the previous truth in the first place. 

[Willowhugger]

I admit, there have been some eye-raising comments this thread.

 

1. America is the land of opportunity where everyone can achieve success if they work at it.

 

2. Islam is the religion of conversion by force where everyone wants to destroy you if you don't believe as they do. Ignoring it's the largest religion in the world now (my wife didn't even realize most Muslims weren't from the Middle East but Asia).

 

3. Freedom is the most important quality and people will always rebel against it even if they're starving.

 

A lot of very privileged non-true statements here.

[Gtdef]

And where do you suggest they'd land, you cant take a large group of qunari on a man hunt around thedas without the surrounding countries, this would be a clear violation. The qunari were forced onto a small city state because of a storm, which was understood, but to just go anywhere they please would not be understood by everyone. Just because the problems were fixed does not mean they didnt leave a negative impact, he was stuck there 4 years losing men to both killings and to the Tal Vashoth, had to deal with multiple attacks, of course that changes the state of which they're in

 

You cant expect people to just understand what should be taken literally or not, when you intially state your problem with someones threats, then say they were ironic, of course im going to assume that you're only talking about what he said in the threat. Plus how does giving a last dying threat add to irony? He warns of an invasion after being defeated. Theres nothing to imply the contrary will happen therefore irony is not present.

 

But Alexander established an empire and sustained it till it eventually broke apart, the qunari established themselves in thedas until they were pushed north. They won the first engagement and forced the second into a stalemate where they gave up what they initially "won". Losing a second engagement in any situation doesnt erase the previous victory.

 

 

The Arishok had a plan to conquer Kirkwall and couldn't have thought of the logistics in case the book thief escaped the city? Extremely smart. I actually hadn't thought of how absurd this is. Thanks for giving me perspective. You know, he could just state his intent when he arrived. Instead he decided to deceive and say that he was waiting for ships to take him back. Everything that happened to him is his own doing. Tal Vashoth used to be men under his command that terrorized the Kirkwall outskirts. Why the hell this gives him any right to do what he does? The theft of the gas, he "allowed it". He clearly states this. Totally preventable. The perpetrator was enemy of both the Qunari and the Kirkwallers. The only men he lost to Kirkwallers are the Qunari that Sir Varnell killed. In act 1 Hawke tries to reason and warn them, instead gets attacked. I don't even see how you consider these fine, while the "attacks" you claim he suffered started after multiple instances of his negligence.

 

Initially I wasn't expecting anyone to understand exactly what I meant because I was trying to make a funny comment. I guess if you had assumed that I know what irony is, then there is only one thing left to deduce. That the "We will return" can't be an ironic statement. I agreed with you that calling it an "empty" thread was poor choice of words because Qunari are warlike, so even in the case he said it out of spite, eventually "winter is coming". I didn't expect that you would think that I substituted the "empty threat" characterization with "ironic thread". I said "everything he says with his dying breath is ironic", meaning the act, not the actual words. In hindsight I understand why this would confuse someone. But I wasn't even remotely prepared for a serious argument.

 

As for the war I think we argue about semantics and we agree on this. I saw the conflict as a whole, so since they didn't actually gain anything when it was all over, they didn't win (nor lost). I totally agree that their initial attack was successful and impressive. 

[Br3admax]

I admit, there have been some eye-raising comments this thread.

 

1. America is the land of opportunity where everyone can achieve success if they work at it.

 

2. Islam is the religion of conversion by force where everyone wants to destroy you if you don't believe as they do. Ignoring it's the largest religion in the world now (my wife didn't even realize most Muslims weren't from the Middle East but Asia).

 

3. Freedom is the most important quality and people will always rebel against it even if they're starving.

 

A lot of very privileged non-true statements here.

Like literally everyone, lol. Also, Islam isn't the world's largest religion, just the fastest growing one. And the Middle East is in Asia, fyi. 

[Willowhugger]

The Arishok had a plan to conquer Kirkwall and couldn't have thought of the logistics in case the book thief escaped the city? Extremely smart. I actually hadn't thought of how absurd this is.

 

The Arishok didn't even think the book was in Kirkwall by that point, I'm sure.

I think he intended to invade Kirkwall just so he could "bring the Qun to Kirkwall" because he was sick of living amongst heathens.

I fully believe the Arishok would have invaded all of Thedas if he could just because it was an alternative to living in Kirkwall's cesspit of a society.

[Gtdef]

The Arishok didn't even think the book was in Kirkwall by that point, I'm sure.

I think he intended to invade Kirkwall just so he could "bring the Qun to Kirkwall" because he was sick of living amongst heathens.

I fully believe the Arishok would have invaded all of Thedas if he could just because it was an alternative to living in Kirkwall's cesspit of a society.

 

This is contradictory. The Arishok chased the thief and both of them got caught in the storm that stranded them in Kirkwall. Isabela avoided going into the compound cause she didn't want to be recognized. How can he not know that the book is there? (or at least that the thief is there, so by extention that's where he should look for the book) he clearly states that an act of greed binded him, meaning the theft, and he stays in Kirkwall for 4 years sitting on his makeshift throne? I don't think that this makes any sense at all.

[SerCambria358]

The Arishok had a plan to conquer Kirkwall and couldn't have thought of the logistics in case the book thief escaped the city? Extremely smart. I actually hadn't thought of how absurd this is. Thanks for giving me perspective. You know, he could just state his intent when he arrived. Instead he decided to deceive and say that he was waiting for ships to take him back. Everything that happened to him is his own doing. Tal Vashoth used to be men under his command that terrorized the Kirkwall outskirts. Why the hell this gives him any right to do what he does? The theft of the gas, he "allowed it". He clearly states this. Totally preventable. The perpetrator was enemy of both the Qunari and the Kirkwallers. The only men he lost to Kirkwallers are the Qunari that Sir Varnell killed. In act 1 Hawke tries to reason and warn them, instead gets attacked. I don't even see how you consider these fine, while the "attacks" you claim he suffered started after multiple instances of his negligence.

 

Initially I wasn't expecting anyone to understand exactly what I meant because I was trying to make a funny comment. I guess if you had assumed that I know what irony is, then there is only one thing left to deduce. That the "We will return" can't be an ironic statement. I agreed with you that calling it an "empty" thread was poor choice of words because Qunari are warlike, so even in the case he said it out of spite, eventually "winter is coming". I didn't expect that you would think that I substituted the "empty threat" characterization with "ironic thread". I said "everything he says with his dying breath is ironic", meaning the act, not the actual words. In hindsight I understand why this would confuse someone. But I wasn't even remotely prepared for a serious argument.

 

As for the war I think we argue about semantics and we agree on this. I saw the conflict as a whole, so since they didn't actually gain anything when it was all over, they didn't win (nor lost). I totally agree that their initial attack was successful and impressive. 

Alright. I think this would be a good time to end this, agreed?

[Keroko]

Just to point out. You may remember Brother Burkel, a man of faith who introduced the Chantry into the Dwarven society. The result of that was exactly like the one you described where people would die before converting. It was exactly what happened if the Chantry did establish in Orzammar. The dwarves start a revolution and would die fighting the government than worship the paragons again. 
 
While I have nothing against the Qun and find it a very practical culture for the world of Dragon Age. Faith and religion are very irrational in nature, people are always searching for the truth, and that truth could come in the form of the teaching of Chantry or the teaching of the Qun, it doesn't matter. When you introduce a new idea to a society, you are introducing it to the people who are searcher for that new idea, not those who have already found it within that society, so of course they would rather die than convert back because those seekers were either searching for a new truth or don't even believe in the previous truth in the first place.

The dwarf example is not exactly the same thing though. That was a new religion trudging in on a milenia old society (one that is also very radically traditionalist at heart) and finding conversion to their milenia old faith to be very hard to achieve.

The qunari, on the other hand, achieved the exact opposite: They smashed into lands where the Chantry was the primary faith for milenia, converted those who lived there (devout Andrastians) and when the Exalted March managed to reclaim the lands, they found that instead of being hailed as liberators, many of their former Andrastians now refused to abandon the Qun.

Comparing the two, the qunari did exactly what the Chantry failed to do at Orzammar.

[Willowhugger]

This is contradictory. The Arishok chased the thief and both of them got caught in the storm that stranded them in Kirkwall. Isabela avoided going into the compound cause she didn't want to be recognized. How can he not know that the book is there? (or at least that the thief is there, so by extention that's where he should look for the book) he clearly states that an act of greed binded him, meaning the theft, and he stays in Kirkwall for 4 years sitting on his makeshift throne? I don't think that this makes any sense at all.

He knew the book was in Kirkwall when he first arrived but, simply put, four years is a long time. The book may well have left by then and the same with a thief.

Which is why the Arishok is despairing.

He has no leads, no clues, and no idea where to begin looking for Isabela or the book.

 

Hence, why so many of his people start abandoning the Qun.

[Gtdef]

Alright. I think this would be a good time to end this, agreed?

 

Indeed, I think we dealt with the misconceptions. I don't think that the argument about Arishok is going to be resolved anyway. ^^

[Killdren88]

Well he's not an idiot, he should understand he can't just sit in a city and break it's laws without conflict. He did it on purpose because he was a gigantic baby, lol. 

 

I just don't understand how people romanticize him and the Qun so much when they're both so fundamentally flawed. 

 

Broad shoulders and near shirtless with straps will do that to some people.

[Wissenschaft]

I would assume that the 'lure' of the Qun is basically the same as the lure of 'collectivist' societies in our world.   There is the erroneous belief by people that they can all be equal and share in the wealth that everyone else seems to enjoy, but not have to work for it.    Those people don't tend to realize that the choice of being lazy is only available in a free system.   

 

If you were to live in a society like the Qun and don't meet your productivity quota, then you would simply be killed.   There  is no efficiency in keeping people alive who consume more resources than they provide to the society.    They would "serve" society as an example of what happens when you don't do your 'share'.   There is also zero motivation to ever over-produce above your quota either in these societies.    Thus why in such societies they are pretty much dominated by extreme poverty.     There would be no infirm/lazy/elderly in Qunari society.    They would simply be killed when they are no longer capable of contributing to society.

 

Qunari have a solution for lazy or otherwise unproductive members. Drugs are use on them to brainwash them into become obedient mindless workers and used like beasts of labor. I suspect there are no prisons in Qunari society, just labor camps.

[Killdren88]

Also just wanna throw it out there..please let us try to keep real world politics out...it will be too tempting for people to ignite flames.

[Willowhugger]

I sympathize with the Arishok because he's hateful of Kirkwall society not because of alien Qunari reasons. It's not that they blow their nose with the right hand when the Qun says to do it with their left hand.

 

No, he hates Kirkwall because it's a horrible-horrible place to live.

With horrible-horrible people.

 

The final breaking point is the fact they want to hang two elves for avenging their sister's rape.

**** the Guard.

Sorry Aveline.

 

That's a humanizing moment, for me.

[Gtdef]

He knew the book was in Kirkwall when he first arrived but, simply put, four years is a long time. The book may well have left by then and the same with a thief.

Which is why the Arishok is despairing.

He has no leads, no clues, and no idea where to begin looking for Isabela or the book.

 

Hence, why so many of his people start abandoning the Qun.

 

I understand this, but isn't it all the more reason to go after the book now that news of it reemerged? Also I'm actually annoyed by how this was handled. Obviously the Arishok knows the location of the book (in the end of act 2). Instead of going there himself he sends a sten? I think this is so contrived, just to make him attack Kirkwall.

[Willowhugger]

I understand this, but isn't it all the more reason to go after the book now that news of it reemerged? Also I'm actually annoyed by how this was handled. Obviously the Arishok knows the location of the book (in the end of act 2). Instead of going there himself he sends a sten? I think this is so contrived, just to make him attack Kirkwall.

 

I imagine this is far from the first rumor they've followed up on.

 

By this time, the Arishok and his people have been subject to hate-crimes, acts of terrorism, and attempts to hang converts.

If you had the military force to steamroll Kirkwall's citizens.

Well, would you have held back as long as he did?

[Willowhugger]

I understand this, but isn't it all the more reason to go after the book now that news of it reemerged? Also I'm actually annoyed by how this was handled. Obviously the Arishok knows the location of the book (in the end of act 2). Instead of going there himself he sends a sten? I think this is so contrived, just to make him attack Kirkwall.

 

I imagine this is far from the first rumor they've followed up on.

 

By this time, the Arishok and his people have been subject to hate-crimes, acts of terrorism, and attempts to hang converts.

 

If you had the military force to steamroll Kirkwall's citizens.

Well, would you have held back as long as he did?

 

Part of why people like the Arishok is he shows remarkable-remarkable restraint.

[Battlebloodmage]

The dwarf example is not exactly the same thing though. That was a new religion trudging in on a milenia old society (one that is also very radically traditionalist at heart) and finding conversion to their milenia old faith to be very hard to achieve.

The qunari, on the other hand, achieved the exact opposite: They smashed into lands where the Chantry was the primary faith for milenia, converted those who lived there (devout Andrastians) and when the Exalted March managed to reclaim the lands, they found that instead of being hailed as liberators, many of their former Andrastians now refused to abandon the Qun.

Comparing the two, the qunari did exactly what the Chantry failed to do at Orzammar.

What did they fail to achieve?

The Chantry established a big followers.

The Qun established a big followers.

Both groups refused to convert and brother Burkel died while demonstrating a peaceful demonstration.

 

Note that the magnitude is different. From the sound of it, the Qun forcibly introduce as well as possibly brainwashed people into believing while Burkel is more like appealing to a person's faith. You're comparing a crusade with the missionary, but that's besides the point here, the point is that those that they reach with their new ideology, they both converted because they found something lacking in their old belief system. Those who are adamant about their belief wouldn't change their belief no matter what regardless of whether it's peaceful conversion or forceful conversion. Those who claimed to be devout could very well be a believer for the sake of believe, They have to believe in it because they have nothing else to turn to, if a new ideal was introduced, some of those devotion could very well switch targets. All I'm saying is sometimes, it's not about how good or bad a certain beliefs are, it's about understanding the psychology and what a person turn to religion or a new ideology. For a short real life example, some of the members of Heaven's Gates cult was not clueless people who were tricked into it, some of the were professionals and well educated, There were a variety of reasons why they turn to a cult, but they weren't being forced into it, those that were forced into it by their loved ones ran away, Those that stay stayed because they found someone in it that they didn't find in their daily life. There are also stories of Americans convert to extremists and homegrown terrorists. In some of these cases, it's not about the morality or being force into anything, it's about whether a person can identify with that idea which could very turn into their new purpose in life.