138 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Then what was the point of ME1? Why does Saren do all this extra work to find the Conduit so he can attack the tower?

Because ME1 would've been a hell of a lot shorter otherwise, especially had Saren not been an idiot about his Spectre status.

[Han Shot First]

Because Saren is a well-known Spectre on the run. 

 

ME1's plot actually didn't make much sense. People just ignore that because it was a good game and fun ride.

 

Saren loses his Spectre status attacking Eden Prime to gain access to a Prothean beacon he already possessed (Virmire), to find a Conduit he didn't need, to gain access to the Presidium he and his indoctrinated Asari commandos already had full access to.

 

In retrospect that has always made me wonder whether Saren originally wasn't a Spectre in early drafts of the script. Remove Saren's Spectre status before ME1 (or have him never be a Spectre) and his searching for the Conduit now makes sense. 

[themikefest]

Saren has no idea what information the beacon contained on Eden Prime and we have no idea if the beacon on Virmire was in his possession before Eden Prime

[Vazgen]

As I recall, the beacon on Eden Prime contained only half of the information, second half was on Virmire. I do think that he could've been much subtler with getting that information, attacking the colony came largely from his disdain for humanity

[SporkFu]

OK, Shepard and his squadmates (forgot all those encounters, duh) I doubt C-Sec has anything more than photorobot though

It's possible he was already on the Citadel when shep and squad were on Thessia as well. We only ever see holo-TIM by then, I believe.

[Vazgen]

It's possible he was already on the Citadel when shep and squad were on Thessia as well. We only ever see holo-TIM by then, I believe.

Nah, vids on Cronos show him sending Kai Leng to Horizon after delivering the Prothean VI. He was there, breaking Vendetta's safety measures.

[SporkFu]

Nah, vids on Cronos show him sending Kai Leng to Horizon after delivering the Prothean VI. He was there, breaking Vendetta's safety measures.

Okay, yep. I'd forgotten those vids on Cronos Station. I had thought maybe they just talked over the comm. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

ME1's plot actually didn't make much sense. People just ignore that because it was a good game and fun ride.

 

Saren loses his Spectre status attacking Eden Prime to gain access to a Prothean beacon he already possessed (Virmire), to find a Conduit he didn't need, to gain access to the Presidium he and his indoctrinated Asari commandos already had full access to.

 

In retrospect that has always made me wonder whether Saren originally wasn't a Spectre in early drafts of the script. Remove Saren's Spectre status before ME1 (or have him never be a Spectre) and his searching for the Conduit now makes sense. 

 

 

Is it ever stated that Saren had access to the Virmire beacon before the Eden Prime one? Even if he did, it seems reasonable to assume, if we were Saren, that the Beacon might have different information. Furthermore, Saren's plan would have worked without any one experiencing the other beacon being alive or revealing his hand, if not for the coincidence that the Normandy would show up.

 

The other thing is that having simple access to the Presidium might not be enough. Saren could only open and close the Wards to insure Sovereign had enough time to open the relay. The success of Saren's job seems to depend on not only opening the Wards but insuring they remained closed around Sovereign (or else the CDF would blow apart Sovereign like the Alliance 5th fleet). Given how long it takes Sovereign to hack the thing, Saren and his commandos would have to hold the tower for a fairly long time against C-Sec, other Spectres, other Asari commandos, etc (I doubt the Council is dumb enough to let them loiter suspiciously around the console when there was an attack on the station). Saren and company may be good but to combat those odds it would probably be better to bring a Geth army.

[themikefest]

It's possible he was already on the Citadel when shep and squad were on Thessia as well. We only ever see holo-TIM by then, I believe.

I would guess TIM was on the Citadel just before Chronos. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a secret office on the Citadel for who knows how long and after the Citadel is moved to Earth, he makes his grand entrance when Shepard shows up. I'm a little surprised he didn't show up as Anderson approached the panel. Did he know at that time that Shepard made it on the Citadel like Anderson did?

[SporkFu]

I would guess TIM was on the Citadel just before Chronos. I wouldn't be surprised if he had a secret office on the Citadel for who knows how long and after the Citadel is moved to Earth, he makes his grand entrance when Shepard shows up. I'm a little surprised he didn't show up as Anderson approached the panel. Did he know at that time that Shepard made it on the Citadel like Anderson did?

He just kinda appears outta nowhere after shep arrives in the control room. I remember him saying to Kai Leng after Thessia that he's not willing to write shep off as a lost cause just yet. Maybe even right at the end he was hoping to talk shep around to his way of thinking and was just waiting for shep to show up. I'm guess that if shep never made it to the beam, TIM wouldn't have let Anderson open the Citadel arms. 

[themikefest]

He just kinda appears outta nowhere after shep arrives in the control room. I remember him saying to Kai Leng after Thessia that he's not willing to write shep off as a lost cause just yet. Maybe even right at the end he was hoping to talk shep around to his way of thinking and was just waiting for shep to show up. I'm guess that if shep never made it to the beam, TIM wouldn't have let Anderson open the Citadel arms. 

After the interference, its about 15-20 seconds before Shepard sees Anderson. So I guess TIM was in whatever location he was at for who knows how waiting for Shepard and the crucible to show up for him to carry out his plan.

[von uber]

Oh ffs. The reason they didn't take it straight away (like they should have) is because it would make me3 last about 5 minutes.

The reapers had to not do the easiest and simplest plan (and the one they have done countless times) otherwise there would be no game.

Headcanon all you like, but thats the way of it.

Regarding 'oooohhhh the arms! The arms!' the reapers can just starve them out. Job done.

[SporkFu]

After the interference, its about 15-20 seconds before Shepard sees Anderson. So I guess TIM was in whatever location he was at for who knows how waiting for Shepard and the crucible to show up for him to carry out his plan.

In order for TIM to take control of the reapers, like he planned -- he had no idea the reapers weren't gonna let him do this -- he still had to wait for the crucible to be docked and take the magic elevator up to the catalyst. it's probable that, once Shield showed up with the crucible, TIM started making his way to the control room, and possible he only just arrived there himself. 

[themikefest]

In order for TIM to take control of the reapers, like he planned -- he had no idea the reapers weren't gonna let him do this -- he still had to wait for the crucible to be docked and take the magic elevator up to the catalyst. it's probable that, once Shield showed up with the crucible, TIM started making his way to the control room, and possible he only just arrived there himself. 

That's possible.

[SporkFu]

Oh ffs. The reason they didn't take it straight away (like they should have) is because it would make me3 last about 5 minutes.

The reapers had to not do the easiest and simplest plan (and the one they have done countless times) otherwise there would be no game.

Headcanon all you like, but thats the way of it.

Regarding 'oooohhhh the arms! The arms!' the reapers can just starve them out. Job done.

Maybe once the reapers' tried and true method -- of taking the citadel right away and disrupting communication and transportation -- failed, and they arrived in the galaxy the old-fashioned way (by FTL travel), and saw how nobody was really prepared to fight the war harvest, they just decided divide and conquer was the most efficient way of reaping. If they had attacked the Citadel right away, it might've -- just maybe -- united the galaxy against them and made the process of reaping that much more difficult (less efficient). 

[Valmar]

Regarding 'oooohhhh the arms! The arms!' the reapers can just starve them out. Job done.

 

That would had taken a long ass time. They're on the citadel, not a random ferry boat. The citadel has its own water, its own gardens.

 

The reapers needed to take over the citadel with ground forces capable of shutting down the relay network - else what is the point. They could had probably managed this with the collectors (assuming direct control!) but Shepard had to go and blow up the base, killing the Collector General that seemed to be the key for Harbinger linking into the individual collectors.

 

Coincidentally, the use of the collector general could also explain why Sovereign was stunned after Saren was defeated. He was linked directly with no middle-man acting as a sort of filter or backup. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 

Is it ever stated that Saren had access to the Virmire beacon before the Eden Prime one? Even if he did, it seems reasonable to assume, if we were Saren, that the Beacon might have different information. Furthermore, Saren's plan would have worked without any one experiencing the other beacon being alive or revealing his hand, if not for the coincidence that the Normandy would show up.

 

The other thing is that having simple access to the Presidium might not be enough. Saren could only open and close the Wards to insure Sovereign had enough time to open the relay. The success of Saren's job seems to depend on not only opening the Wards but insuring they remained closed around Sovereign (or else the CDF would blow apart Sovereign like the Alliance 5th fleet). Given how long it takes Sovereign to hack the thing, Saren and his commandos would have to hold the tower for a fairly long time against C-Sec, other Spectres, other Asari commandos, etc (I doubt the Council is dumb enough to let them loiter suspiciously around the console when there was an attack on the station). Saren and company may be good but to combat those odds it would probably be better to bring a Geth army.

 

 

You don't get a full scale research facility like that going in as short a period between Eden Prime and one mission of Shepard's. It is only logical to conclude he had that beacon and the full scale operation going for some time. The Council sent Shepard to reinforce Kirrahe right after her first mission which could be the short Therum or Feros. It's like Saren went to Eden Prime to verify his own beacon. The ME1 plot doesn't make a lot of sense, but it has a plot, unlike ME2 which has no plot.

 

And you're wrong about Saren being able to do his thing undetected. Tali Zorah had irrefutable evidence.

[SporkFu]

Is it ever stated that Saren had access to the Virmire beacon before the Eden Prime one? Even if he did, it seems reasonable to assume, if we were Saren, that the Beacon might have different information. Furthermore, Saren's plan would have worked without any one experiencing the other beacon being alive or revealing his hand, if not for the coincidence that the Normandy would show up.
 
The other thing is that having simple access to the Presidium might not be enough. Saren could only open and close the Wards to insure Sovereign had enough time to open the relay. The success of Saren's job seems to depend on not only opening the Wards but insuring they remained closed around Sovereign (or else the CDF would blow apart Sovereign like the Alliance 5th fleet). Given how long it takes Sovereign to hack the thing, Saren and his commandos would have to hold the tower for a fairly long time against C-Sec, other Spectres, other Asari commandos, etc (I doubt the Council is dumb enough to let them loiter suspiciously around the console when there was an attack on the station). Saren and company may be good but to combat those odds it would probably be better to bring a Geth army.

You don't get a full scale research facility like that going in as short a period between Eden Prime and one mission of Shepard's. It is only logical to conclude he had that beacon and the full scale operation going for some time. The Council sent Shepard to reinforce Kirrahe right after her first mission which could be the short Therum or Feros. It's like Saren went to Eden Prime to verify his own beacon. The ME1 plot doesn't make a lot of sense, but it has a plot, unlike ME2 which has no plot.
 
And you're wrong about Saren being able to do his thing undetected. Tali Zorah had irrefutable evidence.

Could it be possible that, like shep, Saren didn't understand the Eden Prime beacon vision until he got the cipher from Shiala too? Just a thought.

[Vazgen]

Could it be possible that, like shep, Saren didn't understand the Eden Prime beacon vision until he got the cipher from Shiala too? Just a thought.

This. He might've also deliberately wasting time to figure out how the indoctrination works. That's what Virmire base was studying

[von uber]

That would had taken a long ass time. They're on the citadel, not a random ferry boat. The citadel has its own water, its own gardens.

There are 13million people on the citadel before refugees are counted.
That's a population bigger than greater London.

It would not take very long at all for them to starve.

[birefringent]

Could it be possible that, like shep, Saren didn't understand the Eden Prime beacon vision until he got the cipher from Shiala too? Just a thought.

It seems so according to Shiala. She also mentions the beacon message from EP was meant for a Prothean mind, which is why it's all messed up for everyone else unless you can get the Cipher.

 

The message in each beacon is also only partial. Which is probably why Shepard needs to go to Virmire, and Saren comes to EP as soon as he hears about a new beacon discovery.

 

I haven't seen any information as to when Virmire base is established, but given the size, and breeding krogan there, it should have been way before Eden Prime. Unless building stuff with the help of some fancy mass effect gimmicks makes it a lot faster somehow.

And someone mention that the Council sent Shepard to Virmire after one mission. It requires 2 main missions before you can get Virmire.

 

It seems Virmire was first used for breeding krogan to get more ground forces. The geth weren't enough. Then later Saren starts trying to study indoctrination after he thinks it's affecting himself.

[Obadiah]

Virmire had Krogan and Geth working together, or at least working in the same area. They fought side by side when Shepard and STG assaulted the base. I wonder what that was like?

[ImaginaryMatter]

You don't get a full scale research facility like that going in as short a period between Eden Prime and one mission of Shepard's. It is only logical to conclude he had that beacon and the full scale operation going for some time. The Council sent Shepard to reinforce Kirrahe right after her first mission which could be the short Therum or Feros. It's like Saren went to Eden Prime to verify his own beacon. The ME1 plot doesn't make a lot of sense, but it has a plot, unlike ME2 which has no plot.

 

And you're wrong about Saren being able to do his thing undetected. Tali Zorah had irrefutable evidence.

 

Well I'm unsure how Tali would work out given the oddities that surround her acquisition of the data file, but it seems that without Shepard and new friends looking for her she might have died and the data would have been taken back or destroyed.

 

I'm sure the base was around longer than Eden Prime but I don't think a beacon would be needed to spark it's creation. Saren had met Sovereign long before the events of the story. Given that the base had multiple purposes I find it completely reasonable to assume it was built to study Sovereign's ability to influence organics or perhaps research a genophage cure to get some Krogans on board and provide enemy variety. And only later was the beacon transferred there.

[Valmar]

There are 13million people on the citadel before refugees are counted.
That's a population bigger than greater London.

It would not take very long at all for them to starve.

 

Yeah, it would. I'm not saying they'd all survive and be well-fed and healthy. But for them ALL to die from starvation would take a lot of time. They'd sooner kill each other before they'd all starve. Honestly, unless they wipe each other out with one blow or sabotage themselves they're never going to run out of food. Even the quarian's are able to sustain their entire species with just three live ships. If the quarian's can manage to survive for centuries with their model ships I think the Citadel will be able to manage for a little while. Though that's just my opinion on the matter, its all speculation either way you look at it. Speculation to a hypothetical situation in a fictional universe, even.

 

 

Virmire had Krogan and Geth working together, or at least working in the same area. They fought side by side when Shepard and STG assaulted the base. I wonder what that was like?

 

Weren't those krogan supposed to be clones or something? I know in the second game they always refer to it as a cloning facility. Perhaps they were all tank-bred, similar to Okeer's work.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Virmire had Krogan and Geth working together, or at least working in the same area. They fought side by side when Shepard and STG assaulted the base. I wonder what that was like?

 

On Virmire I assume the Geth stayed inside a closet or something until they were needed and the Krogan probably ran around outside eating those crab things. I assume for the most part they left each other alone. As for operations, it generally looked like the Krogan were calling the shots and the Geth were just yes men. This dynamic might have changed if there was something like a Geth Prime or Colossus on the scene though.