369 réponses à ce sujet

[gr8dane]

I have killed Anders every single play through,the only way I can let him live is through the Keep,even that is damn hard!!! 

[Pestilence]

[herkles]

Well as my hawke was romancing Sebastian she naturally killed anders. 

[GalacticDonuts]

He killed innocent people for no reason that had nothing to do with his crap

This and

 

 

I had Hawke kill Anders because...

 

• Hawke had spent a great deal of time and effort trying to keep peace between mages and templars, only to have Anders not only sabotage those efforts but trick Hawke into helping him do it.
• A lot of innocent people died as a result of Anders' actions, both directly and indirectly. 
• Hawke felt partially responsible for it because Anders was his companion, he had trusted that Anders could control Justice/Vengeance, and because he had been tricked into aiding Anders in carrying out the attack. Killing Anders was an effort at righting his own wrongs. He had helped to unleash Anders upon Kirkwall. Now he had a duty to save Kirkwall (or lands beyond) from him.
• Anders had clearly lost control of himself and could no longer be counted on to keep the worst influences of Justice/Vengeance under wraps. He was in a downward spiral and had been for quite some time. Allowing him to live posed a danger to even more innocent lives.
• Pity. Anders may not have been an abomination exactly as Justice isn't a demon, but he is something akin to it. His identity was being swallowed up by the spirit of Justice/Vengeance and his own free will was diminished. It's almost like indoctrination from the Mass Effect series. Killing Anders at that point is partially an act of mercy.

 

 this pretty much sum up my reasons for killing Anders.

[Ryriena]

I wonder if the same people on here, who say they've kill Anders have also killed Thane since he too killed innocent people. SO basicly people hate that he took the power away from the player is, what I have gathered from this entire thread. But people love Thane who has killed sometime innocent people for money, or Zevran for that matter has also killed a lot more people than Anders. Mikefest I know you've done every thing in the games...

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I wonder if the same people on here, who say they've kill Anders have also killed Thane since he too killed innocent people. SO basicly people hate that he took the power away from the player is, what I have gathered from this entire thread. But people love Thane who has killed sometime innocent people for money, or Zevran for that matter has also killed a lot more people than Anders. Mikefest I know you've done every thing in the games...

You have somewhat of a point with Zevran, but Thane's not quite an equivalent scenario. Thane has retired and is now not only no longer taking lives, but willing to work with you to save them. He's no longer a danger to society; the opposite is in fact true. Anders, thanks to the spirit of Justice that has either completely co-opted him or shown the power to completely overrule him when it wants to, is going to be a danger to innocent people for as long as he lives. And given that unlike Thane he's not fast on the way to dying, that life of being a threat to everyone around him could last quite some time. Now, if someone is arguing to kill Anders to avenge past victims as well as to protect those in the future (as some on this thread are), then you have a point. Otherwise I see some room to view Thane as a life worth preserving (for as long as that can last) while Anders isn't.

[Sports72Xtrm]

You have somewhat of a point with Zevran, but Thane's not quite an equivalent scenario. Thane has retired and is now not only no longer not taking lives, but willing to work with you to save them. He's no longer a danger to society; the opposite is in fact true. Anders, thanks to the spirit of Justice that has either completely co-opted him or shown the power to completely overrule him when it wants to, is going to be a danger to innocent people for as long as he lives. And given that unlike Thane he's not fast on the way to dying, that life of being a threat to everyone around him could last quite some time. Now, if someone is arguing to kill Anders to avenge past victims as well as to protect those in the future (as some on this thread are), then you have a point. Otherwise I see some room to view Thane as a life worth preserving (for as long as that can last) while Anders isn't.

It's really an assumption that Anders is gonna go all boogeyman and try to kill innocents. For all we know, he goes to Rivain, learns from seers how to cope with living with a merged spirit, and spends the rest of his days doing good like healing the sick, fighting for the downtrodden, and other heroic stuff. In Justice's dialogue with Velanna, he does say he believes in atonement and when finding the lyrium ring, in finding the good in tragedy. what better way for Anders to atone for the deaths of the Chantry than that, he'll die when it's his time and let the Maker judge him. Man's justice is too petty and paranoid.

[Stronglav]

The only thing I regret is I can't torture him first.

That psycho SOB killed the only woman who could make Meredith stop.

And he is responsible for starting a war in which millions will die.

I wish I could rip his skin of his bones while he still alive.

Make him eat his guts.A pathetic stab just isn't enough for me.

I wanted to torture him first.

[KaiserShep]

It's only a pathetic stab if you need to do it more than once to finish the job.

 

Besides, deriving pleasure from torture isn't the healthiest past time.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's really an assumption that Anders is gonna go all boogeyman and try to kill innocents. For all we know, he goes to Rivain, learns from seers how to cope with living with a merged spirit, and spends the rest of his days doing good like healing the sick, fighting for the downtrodden, and other heroic stuff. In Justice's dialogue with Velanna, he does say he believes in atonement and when finding the lyrium ring, in finding the good in tragedy. what better way for Anders to atone for the deaths of the Chantry than that, he'll die when it's his time and let the Maker judge him. Man's justice is too petty and paranoid.

It's an assumption fairly well backed up by his past actions. Even if Anders goes to Rivain, we don't know that they can or will help him; to the best of my knowledge we have no direct knowledge of how Rivaini seers handle spirits and how well it works. And that's without factoring in what happened to their mage population recently, which the survivors might well blame on Anders. You're right in that we can't be sure he doesn't find some way of curing himself of what he and Justice have done to each other, but it strikes me as really questionable to let him go after he's proven himself dangerous in the hopes that he'll stop being so.

[Sports72Xtrm]

 

It's an assumption fairly well backed up by his past actions. Even if Anders goes to Rivain, we don't know that they can or will help him; to the best of my knowledge we have no direct knowledge of how Rivaini seers handle spirits and how well it works. And that's without factoring in what happened to their mage population recently, which the survivors might well blame on Anders. You're right in that we can't be sure he doesn't find some way of curing himself of what he and Justice have done to each other, but it strikes me as really questionable to let him go after he's proven himself dangerous in the hopes that he'll stop being so.

Well the thing about assumptions is that it can't be backed up by evidence, That's why it's an assumption because you are not an expert on abominations. So when you say Anders will go "crazy", it's just your assumption synthesized out of your subjective biases. Rivaini seers have been doing the whole abominations thing for a while now. They at least have more credible guidance than anybody else too pessimistic to try. That is, I don't personally believe the merging with Justice is something that needs to be cured. Just coped with. Maybe I'm just not that spooked by spirits, especially one of a virtue like Justice.

 

He's no more a danger than any of Hawke's other companions. Merrill is a blood mage consorting with demons to fix a tainted mirror, Isabela is a notorious pirate who instigated a war with the Qunari, and Fenris is a mage hating tevinter fugitive, Sebastian is willing to instigate a war either out of vengeance or to reclaim a title he long gave up all claims to. The only normal one in Hawke's party that is least likely to get Hawke killed or instigate conflict is Aveline. Hawke's friends are a bunch of troublemakers but together they sure do some good.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well the thing about assumptions is that it can't be backed up by evidence, That's why it's an assumption because you are not an expert on abominations. So when you say Anders will go "crazy", it's just your assumption synthesized out of your subjective biases. Rivaini seers have been doing the whole abominations thing for a while now. They at least have more credible guidance than anybody else too pessimistic to try.

You misunderstand my argument. My argument is not that Anders will go crazy, it's that he's arrived. If you want to tell me I don't have evidence for that, you'll need to make it good. And we don't know that a spirit going around the twist like that is curable. We don't know that the Rivaini seers would know, either, since we really don't see how well they handle spirits. All we have been told is that they do what Anders did, not how consistently it ends well for them.

 

Nor do we know that Anders would be able to make it all the way there before the next time he found himself dealing with Vengeance's influence, since I believe it's rather distant from Kirkwall. There's just way too many moving parts to hoping he gets to Rivain to justify letting him live on those grounds, and since Rivain is the only place we know of where he even might get help...

 

 

 

He's no more a danger than any of Hawke's other companions. Merrill is a blood mage consorting with demons to fix a tainted mirror, Isabela is a notorious pirate who instigated a war with the Qunari, and Fenris is a mage hating tevinter fugitive, Sebastian is willing to instigate a war either out of vengeance or to reclaim a title he long gave up all claims to. The only normal one in Hawke's party that is least likely to get Hawke killed or instigate conflict is Aveline. Hawke's friends are a bunch of troublemakers but together they sure do some good.

You have a point with Sebastian. (Though killing Anders has the side benefit that he calms down.) The rest of the party, however, don't have nearly the potential to do harm in the future that Anders does. Merrill and Isabella's plots that would put countless people in danger have been resolved by this point, and Fenris has neither the raw power Anders does nor the raw insanity that we see when he threatened Ella. Nor does any of this work as an argument for sparing Anders even if I conceded it; the fact that there's already dangerous people who could snap and go on a mass-murder spree in Hawke's party does not mean it's a good idea for him to recruit more.

[Jagokoz]

The first time I did kill Anders, simply because I was so shocked at the action I didn't know how to forgive that sort of thing. I just played it recently and had an entirely new perspective. I was so sick of the Mages and Templar crap (none were blameless in this city of frustration that is Kirkwall) I finally decided he had to do this because the game could have been dragged on for another 3 chapters with just new things sprouting up and Hawke fixing them. In the long run Anders might have caused more pain with his action but lets just get the conflict started now so we can be done with it sooner.

 

I let him live with his mistakes. And sided with the templars and made him fight for them, just to see if he would (and he did!).

[Sports72Xtrm]

You misunderstand my argument. My argument is not that Anders will go crazy, it's that he's arrived. If you want to tell me I don't have evidence for that, you'll need to make it good. And we don't know that a spirit going around the twist like that is curable. We don't know that the Rivaini seers would know, either, since we really don't see how well they handle spirits. All we have been told is that they do what Anders did, not how consistently it ends well for them. Or that Anders would be able to make it all the way there before the next time he found himself dealing with Vengeance's influence, since I believe it's rather distant from Kirkwall. There's just way too many moving parts to hoping he gets to Rivain to justify letting him live on those grounds, and since Rivain is the only place we know of where he even might get help...

Well I don't see him as crazy. I saw him as someone who did an extreme thing to catalyze a change for the mages. Whether it ends up good or bad will depend on the outcome of the new game but something is going change and that depends on the choices of the player. I don't see him blowing up the chantry, instigating a war, as a bad thing. He may be the catalyst, but the war is the product of how people react to them. To cast all blame on Anders is just to be someone who lacks any sense of personal responsibility.

 

As for all the what ifs, I personally chose to have a little faith in him. I also don't think his merging with Justice is something that needs to be cured. My friendship route with him anyways,Anders seems sensible and noble enough. I have no qualms about his means as I respect his intentions. And I see eye to eye with someone seeking to help the downtrodden. I think Velanna's quote about Andraste is similar to my views about Anders: "I should hate him but I don't. I can respect a man who fights for freedom and justice."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well I don't see him as crazy. I saw him as someone who did an extreme thing to catalyze a change for the mages. Whether it ends up good or bad will depend on the outcome of the new game but something is going change and that depends on the choices of the player. I don't see him blowing up the chantry, instigating a war, as a bad thing. He may be the catalyst, but the war is the product of how people react to them. To cast all blame on Anders is just to be someone who lacks any sense of personal responsibility.

 

As for all the what ifs, I personally chose to have a little faith in him. I also don't think his merging with Justice is something that needs to be cured. My friendship route with him anyways,Anders seems sensible and noble enough. I have no qualms about his means as I respect his intentions. And I see eye to eye with someone seeking to help the downtrodden. I think Velanna's quote about Andraste is similar to my views about Anders: "I should hate him but I don't. I can respect a man who fights for freedom and justice."

The problem is that Anders nearly kills an innocent he had been trying to protect after a fight. I could maybe view the Chantry thing as relatively sane on a Friended Anders (keyword: "relatively") but that Justice attempts to kill Ella whether or not Anders has been Friended, coupled with the Chantry bombing proving raw potential to kill massive numbers of people, is what convinces me that Anders is too much of a gamble.

[Sports72Xtrm]

 

 

You have a point with Sebastian. (Though killing Anders has the side benefit that he calms down.) The rest of the party, however, don't have nearly the potential to do harm in the future that Anders does. Merrill and Isabella's plots that would put countless people in danger have been resolved by this point, and Fenris has neither the raw power Anders does nor the raw insanity that we see when he threatened Ella. Nor does any of this work as an argument for sparing Anders even if I conceded it; the fact that there's already dangerous people who could snap and going on a mass-murder spree in Hawke's party does not mean it's a good idea for him to recruit more.

Anders does have control of his facilities and is not dominated by Justice. For example,  if Hawke romances Anders, "Justice" may disapprove but he won't interfere. What changes are his values and his compulsion to act on it. the compulsion to act and right wrongs he interprets. But we all have these compulsions, humans however just find other things to procrastinate or give up on them when when accomplishing them becomes too inconvenient. For anders, he is compelled to follow through with it. He is after all, intertwined with the spirit of justice and as he claims, he is "the cause of mages." He cannot pick and chooses what parts of Justice he likes, Justice's entire identity is the search of what is just and so that must be what anders must be as well. He cannot ignore the injustice of the circle, mages being treated like criminals while mundanes have mudane priveledge (i.e., like white priviledge but for non-mages), the lobotomization of mages and the threats of violence to force them to comply. Doing so, ignoring the injustice just forces Justice to take control and become Vengeance. Did Anders almost kill ella? Yes, just like Fenris "almost (or can)" kills his sister. In a fit of passion. Yet if Hawke has enough influence, Anders is able to reign himself in just like any other overly emotional being. Thus he can be in "control".

 

Now if we define insanity by  "Not knowing the difference between right and wrong" when the perpetrator was performing the crime, then all of society is guilty of that by perpetuating the Circle system. The systematic hunt and oppression of a discriminated sect for thousands of years some would say is wrong and evil. Though what is right and wrong is subjective to each individual's values. So this is a vague definition of insanity or perhaps not a very apt one. Anders or Justice did not orchestrate the chantry bombing out of any cruelty or malice, he did it as he said "to change the world". He wanted to provoke the templars into orchestrating the rite of annulment so that the mages would be forced to fight for their independence. It was an act of terrorism with political aims and objectives, things every nation, every clandestine spy or military agency is guilty of to try and tip an advantage to their favor in our history. That is not objectively insanity, its just politicking.

[Althix]

To cast all blame on Anders is just to be someone who lacks any sense of personal responsibility.

that's why we put him to death.

 

yeah, one more thing. there is a difference between fighting on the war against military personnel and murdering civilians.

[Sports72Xtrm]

that's why we put him to death.

 

yeah, one more thing. there is a difference between fighting on the war against military personnel and murdering civilians.

Is that why the templars were orchestrating kill squads to kill family members who helped apostates free the Circle? Apparently the chantry can't tell the difference between military personnel and civilians either.

 

 

as for anders sure you can kill him, hell he even admits he deserves it, but he's a good man and it's such a waste.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Did Anders almost kill ella? Yes, just like Fenris "almost (or can)" kills his sister. In a fit of passion. Yet if Hawke has enough influence, Anders is able to reign himself in just like any other overly emotional being. Thus he can be in "control".

It's not "just like it." I'm not saying Fenris should have killed his sister, but I will say that his rage is understandable. He has been stripped of any memories of his sister, given an opportunity to meet her, and then led into an ambush because Varania stood to benefit from betraying Fenris to the one man he most hates. Anders, on the other hand, threatens and possibly kills Ella for being afraid in his presence while he is clearly possessed. Combine that with Anders' raw power (there's a reason abominations are feared) and I think "too petty and paranoid" is an inaccurate way of describing killing him to protect others.

[Sports72Xtrm]

It's not "just like it." I'm not saying Fenris should have killed his sister, but I will say that his rage is understandable. He has been stripped of any memories of his sister, given an opportunity to meet her, and then led into an ambush because Varania stood to benefit from betraying Fenris to the one man he most hates. Anders, on the other hand, threatens and possibly kills Ella for being afraid in his presence while he is clearly possessed. Combine that with Anders raw power (there's a reason abominations are feared) and I think "too petty and paranoid" is an inaccurate way of describing killing him to protect others.

Well nobody said calming emotions was going to be easy but it is possible and with Hawke's support, he doesn't kill Ella and he suceeds in gaining control. Sure it was by a thin margin but with practice he could get better at it.I'm sure neither Anders nor Justice would want innocent Ella's blood on their hands just because they're hot headed. And Ella could have been a bit more greatful, he did just save her from a bunch of rapist templars and her first reaction was to insult him by calling him a demon. But I understand and I am tolerant of her reaction just as I am with Anders' reaction. As for Anders' raw power, every mage is dangerous and has raw power. Just because they have raw power doesn't mean you put every one of them to the torch, even the ones that glow and look menacing. That isn't justice, that's fear, and I can't stand for that. If I did, it's a slippery slope to also kill all the dreamers, also all the mages must be feared and put to the torch instead of guided. Guided is much better imo.

[Althix]

Is that why the templars were orchestrating kill squads to kill family members who helped apostates free the Circle? Apparently the chantry can't tell the difference between military personnel and civilians either.

 

 

as for anders sure you can kill him, hell he even admits he deserves it, but he's a good man and it's such a waste.

he is not a man, he is a possessed abomination. there is a difference you know.

 

as for kill squads, sure, and by blowing up chantry Anders just brought free mages movement on the same level with their oppressors if not lower. good job. high five.

[Sports72Xtrm]

he is not a man, he is a possessed abomination. there is a difference you know.

 

as for kill squads, sure, and by blowing up chantry Anders just brought free mages movement on the same level with their oppressors if not lower. good job. high five.

Moral high grounds don't always win wars so no lost for me.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well nobody said calming emotions was going to be easy but it is possible and with Hawke's support, he doesn't kill Ella and he suceeds in gaining control. Sure it was by a thin margin but with practice he could get better at it.I'm sure neither Anders nor Justice would want innocent Ella's blood on their hands just because they're hot headed. And Ella could have been a bit more greatful, he did just save her from a bunch of rapist templars and her first reaction was to insult him by calling him a demon. But I understand and I am tolerant of her reaction just as I am with Anders' reaction. As for Anders' raw power, every mage is dangerous and has raw power. Just because they have raw power doesn't mean you put every one of them to the torch, even the ones that glow and look menacing. That isn't justice, that's fear, and I can't stand for that. If I did, it's a slippery slope to also kill all the dreamers, also all the mages must be feared and put to the torch instead of guided. Guided is much better imo.

I'm not arguing for killing Anders for being powerful, I'm arguing for killing Anders for being a powerful being who happens to be quite capable of killing people for insulting him. Could you please explain to me how you think that is morally similar? Yes, he can be talked down, and he regrets it, but what good is any of that going to do if Hawke isn't around next time?

[Sports72Xtrm]

I'm not arguing for killing Anders for being powerful, I'm arguing for killing Anders for being a powerful being who happens to be quite capable of killing people for insulting him. Could you please explain to me how you think that is morally similar?

In the end it's all rage. In one of your post you are excusing Fenris becauseas you say"it's not "just like it." I'm not saying Fenris should have killed his sister, but I will say that his rage is understandable." Fenris' sister was meek and defenseless and he wanted to kill her because of Vengeance (see what i did there) yet you think Anders rage issues are worth harsher punishment? Is Fenris' reason any less petty? I assume the reason why you fear Anders' tantrums more than Fenris is because he's alien to you with the whole abomination thing. I see both their issues on equal footing and both I believe can be mastered on equal footing.

 

Yes, he can be talked down, and he regrets it, but what good is any of that going to do if Hawke isn't around next time?

 

Who says he'll need Hawke next time? Learning to control his rage issues means learning more about his condition and how to master it. Unlike you, I don't think that endeavor is a hopeless cause. Just like Feynriel's case.

[Althix]

Moral high grounds don't always win wars so no lost for me.

you don't say. there is a difference between military morals and civilian morals.

however people who provide shelter or protection for apostate are breaking the law, and templars has their right to punish those who break this law. Because those people are criminals.