369 réponses à ce sujet

[Izanagi_Nazo]

I killed Anders everytime in my PTs, but left him alive in the keep. I also sided with the Temps as a mage, so he helped me crush the mages

[Sports72Xtrm]

you don't say. there is a difference between military morals and civilian morals.

however people who provide shelter or protection for apostate are breaking the law, and templars has their right to punish those who break this law. Because those people are criminals.

Well I don't need to know difference between anyone's morals because I follow my own morals so agree to do whatever the hell i want.

 

People that hunt mages belong in cages and the Maker hates them.

[Althix]

Well I don't need to know difference between anyone's morals because I follow my own morals so agree to do whatever the hell i want.

 

People that hunt mages belong in cages and the Maker hates them.

you have such a strong position in this debate.

have a nice day.

[Eledran]

Stabbed him dead right away. 

 

Because karma is a ******. That's the way I played Hawke and the Warden in both games. Sure he might have been fighting for a just cause, but that doesn't mean you can go ahead and blow up tons of innocent bystanders. Even if the act in itself eventually leads to good, the perpetrator still has to bear the consequences and undergo the punishment.

 

In fact, Anders / Justice actually agrees with me on that one.

 

Aside from all that, I hated Anders in DA2 and was happy to see him go. Didn't hate him as a character, but I hated that the funny Anders from Awakening had become this dry dull dude that I HAD to take along on my journeys most of the time.

[Ryriena]

You have somewhat of a point with Zevran, but Thane's not quite an equivalent scenario. Thane has retired and is now not only no longer taking lives, but willing to work with you to save them. He's no longer a danger to society; the opposite is in fact true. Anders, thanks to the spirit of Justice that has either completely co-opted him or shown the power to completely overrule him when it wants to, is going to be a danger to innocent people for as long as he lives. And given that unlike Thane he's not fast on the way to dying, that life of being a threat to everyone around him could last quite some time. Now, if someone is arguing to kill Anders to avenge past victims as well as to protect those in the future (as some on this thread are), then you have a point. Otherwise I see some room to view Thane as a life worth preserving (for as long as that can last) while Anders isn't.

Your saying that Anders can't have the same room to change like Thane. That's a lot like your assuming he too far gone, when in the game Thane for example had a choice too kill people for the Hanar, then Zevran was in retrospect was a good kid that was forced in too the life, when he was sold to the crows at a young age. He changed his ways and began a new out look on life, their always a chance your able too see the errors of your ways. Their is a chance for Anders since their is still good inside him. He healed people for free and earned the respect of the residents of Darktown because of this he has people that protected him from harm. The angry mob that tries to kill after you met that store owner thinking your here too take him into the gallows. I think he too has value, as well, but I don't let my spite cloud my judgement either. Your letting vengeance take over your view point and that leads to bad outcomes in the long run. As you can, see, I very on the side of, which Hawke I play so some kill him and other ask him to join up with her or tell him to leave and never come back. I very much against the death penalty, as I have seen this abused too no end in Texas, mostly on black defendants more so than whites and more likely the poor folks also get the worst treatment with this outcome.

[Beerfish]

Well I don't need to know difference between anyone's morals because I follow my own morals so agree to do whatever the hell i want.

 

People that hunt mages belong in cages and the Maker hates them.

We can see why you like Anders with that response.

[KaiserShep]

I wonder if the same people on here, who say they've kill Anders have also killed Thane since he too killed innocent people. SO basicly people hate that he took the power away from the player is, what I have gathered from this entire thread. But people love Thane who has killed sometime innocent people for money, or Zevran for that matter has also killed a lot more people than Anders. Mikefest I know you've done every thing in the games...

 

I don't think it's a matter of power being taken away from the player.

 

I killed Anders for the same reason I kicked him out of the group after Dissent: he's proving himself to be more of a liability. I actually enjoy the Anders dynamic, because I like the irony that Hawke's growing animosity with him in my playthrough clashes with the fact that they both share a similar cause. I enjoyed that he has his own sense of agency, and can't simply be talked out of doing this or that because the protagonist's coercion is Super-Effective. Thane is a far different story. I don't know about the people he's killed beyond the fact that they were on contract. As a soldier that has paved a long and bloody path, it would be kind of weird for Shepard to pass judgment that Thane should die, despite the vagueness of Thane's past. But Hawke was there to see Anders kill all those people, and ignite the conflict first-hand, whereas Shepard only gets some brief info from a dossier. Zevran is different though. Even without knowing anything about his past, the Warden is perfectly justified to simply kill him and be done with it, but is also justified to recruit him as a combatant to help fight darkspawn. After all, Wardens take all sorts for aid. But still, both Thane and Zevran can be used to resolve conflict, whereas Anders only exacerbates it.

[Dutchess]

Your saying that Anders can't have the same room to change like Thane. That's a lot like your assuming he too far gone, when in the game Thane for example had a choice too kill people for the Hanar, then Zevran was in retrospect was a good kid that was forced in too the life, when he was sold to the crows at a young age. He changed his ways and began a new out look on life, their always a chance your able too see the errors of your ways. Their is a chance for Anders since their is still good inside him. He healed people for free and earned the respect of the residents of Darktown because of this he has people that protected him from harm. The angry mob that tries to kill after you met that store owner thinking your here too take him into the gallows. I think he too has value, as well, but I don't let my spite cloud my judgement either. Your letting vengeance take over your view point and that leads to bad outcomes in the long run. As you can, see, I very on the side of, which Hawke I play so some kill him and other ask him to join up with her or tell him to leave and never come back. I very much against the death penalty, as I have seen this abused too no end in Texas, mostly on black defendants more so than whites and more likely the poor folks also get the worst treatment with this outcome.

 

To me Anders more than proved that he is a lost cause when he blew up the Chantry. He already showed it when Hawke needs to stop him from killing an innocent girl. It's not necessarily about Anders being a bad person, but the merging with Justice and the consequent warping into a force of Vengeance has damaged his humanity too much to expect him to still function properly in society. He is not fully in control of his own actions, unlike Thane and Zevran. In the end there is only room for vengeance (not justice) in his mind, and only with regards to the cause of free mages. 

[Nukekitten]

Even violent people, not fully in control of their actions, can be useful if placed in the right sort of situation. He's just started a war, and there will be plenty of opportunities for his destructive tendencies to either burn themselves out or to get him killed while killing people who need to be removed.

Perhaps he is dangerous, and perhaps he deserves to die, but since the environment is already unstable there is time to play around with alternative solutions to simply killing him.

[Ryriena]

Again, your assuming he is too far gone that is not how English common laws should work for a person, in fact, your judging him on things that can be entirely avoided. It's because of this that you can not fully judge him because at this moment you are in fact clouded by retribution

[Nukekitten]

Again, your assuming he is too far gone that is not how English common laws should work for a person, in fact, your judging him on things that can be entirely avoided. It's because of this that you can not fully judge him because at this moment you are in fact clouded by retribution

Uhm, modern laws sort of have an advantage there in that you can lock someone up indefinitely – until they cease to be a threat, not that this would apply in his case, or until they are rehabilitated. However, with regards to being locked up, he's frequently shown his propensity to escape.

What options are there, besides killing him and letting him go?
Releasing him into the custody of the wardens? Whom he has run from before.
Releasing him into the custody of the Templars? Who would undoubtedly kill him for his crimes.
Making him tranquil? Better to kill him.
Release him into the custody of the mages? Who may or may not glorify him or kill him themselves.

I don't see the resources to deal with the problem in many of the more finely grained terms that we might be able to with modern laws and relatively abundant resources.

[Ryriena]

Why not send him too Riverine so he can learn to control himself better since they are the only ones too have actually studied the effects of spirit possession on a person.

The reason he ran away from the Wardens was because they turned on him it was because of a Tempalr that was put their in order to wacth him and somehow he found out about Justice and told the other Wardens and he was forced to flee from him. He thought he had found a home with the Wardens and friends and thus was going to be killed by the same people he though were his friends.

[Nohvarr]

Why not send him too Riverine so he can learn to control himself better since they are the only ones too have actually studied the effects of spirit possession on a person.

What is the sentence given for mass murder? I'm pretty sure exile to Riverine is not in the cards.

 

That said...I will allow him to survive DA 2...if I can make him tranquil in DA:I.

[Ryriena]

What is the sentence given for mass murder? I'm pretty sure exile to Riverine is not in the cards.

That said...I will allow him to survive DA 2...if I can make him tranquil in DA:I.

He will still have magic, since he'll just be cut off from Justice and the fade this Acorrding too Gaider. You do know that right?

[Lulupab]

What is the sentence given for mass murder? I'm pretty sure exile to Riverine is not in the cards.

That said...I will allow him to survive DA 2...if I can make him tranquil in DA:I.

Might as well kill him then, possessed mages are immune to tranquility because you cannot severe their connection to the fade when a piece of fade itself lives inside them, shining like a beacon. Literally.

He will still have magic he'll just be cut off from Justice and the fade. You do know that right?

He cannot be made tranquil in the first place. He is by definition of tranquility cure immune to it.

[Ryriena]

I thought according too what Gaider has said on this issuse is that this would still let them use magic, but just cut him off from Justice?

[Lulupab]

I thought according too what Gaider has said on this issuse is that this would still let them use magic, but just cut him off from Justice?

A tranquil is made that way by branding boiling Lyrium on their head which causes great pain and severes the mage's connection with the fade. Justice is source of pure magic, he is an entity of the fade and because of that as long as Anders is possessed his connection to the fade can never be severed. Since there is no cure for possession Anders is practically immune to tranquility. He even temporarily cures Karl when he uses his magic nearby him.

[Ryriena]

A tranquil is made that way by branding boiling Lyrium on their head which causes great pain and severes the mage's connection with the fade. Justice is source of pure magic, he is an entity of the fade and because of that as long as Anders is possessed his connection to the fade can never be severed. Since there is no cure for possession Anders is practically immune to tranquility. He even temporarily cures Karl when he uses his magic nearby him.

I knew that I had been confused on this subject thanks for clearfiying this for me.

[Nukekitten]

Why not send him too Riverine so he can learn to control himself better since they are the only ones too have actually studied the effects of spirit possession on a person.

The reason he ran away from the Wardens was because they turned on him because of a Tempalr that was put their in order to wacth him for and somehow he found out about Justice and told the other Wardens and he was forced to flee from him. He thought he had found a home with the Wardens and friends and this was going to be killed by the same people he though were his friends.

Mmm, it's an interesting thought. Though I was under the impression that the circle there had been annulled precisely because they studied these issues? Would they be reliable to restrain him while he learned to control himself?

It'd be worth looking into though if he was already imprisoned, if there was the time and resources available to investigate it as a potential solution.

[Yermogi]

Alright, so here is my opinion on the whole thing.

 

In all of my playthroughs, I sided with the mages, not necessarily because I think that mages should be free to walk around unrestricted, but because I think that the current system with the mages stuck in towers guarded by templars needs significant tweaking, and preferably should be changed to something else completely. It is made very clear throughout DA:II, and to some extent in Origins, that many Templars do not see mages as human beings, but instead as monsters, and therefore do not deserve the consideration or treatment as "normal" person would. In Kirkwall, the abuses of templars towards mages are seen almost constantly, and not just revoking their rights to visit family- Rights of Tranquility without provocation happens, physical abuse happens, executions happen, rape happens, and murder happens. The mages are almost universally terrified because they all feel like being in or being sent to the Circle is a death sentence. While it would be natural for someone to be disappointed to be sent to the Circle, outright horror should certainly not be a reaction. The Templars were in the wrong, no matter how I slice it. Cullen thought of them as sub-human (or elf), Meredith thought they should all be killed, and most other Templars just abused them as they pleased.

 

Granted, the templar group in Kirkwall might be an extreme, but these abuses had been around for a very long time in pretty much every Circle in Thedas. As some have already mentioned, the rumblings of Templar/Mage war were being heard long before the Kirkwall Incident. Anders' action was just the spark that lit the powder keg.

 

Now, Grand Cleric Althea... I liked her, I did. I also understood her position. The Chantry's belief that mages should be kept separate is clearly stated, so she can't really argue with that. She could, however, have called Meredith and her Templars out on their horrible treatment of the mages, and told them to knock it off, which probably would have helped to some extent. Instead, she refused to take part in the argument, even when everyone could clearly see that the Templars were overstepping their bounds when it came to their duties. Did she deserve to die? No. Was she completely blameless? To that, I would also have to say No. The other clerics and people in the Chantry at the time also did not deserve to die. But something was going to have to give sooner or later, and whatever it was wasn't going to be small or forgetful.

 

Now, onto Anders. Anders is a tragic character, no matter what you think of him. Whether or not he was Hawke's lover, he had a very sad story.He was intertwined with a spirit of Justice which had a severe impact on his life and personality, and drove him further and further into desperation. But I don't think it was all his fault. Anders never wanted to take the path he did. He wrote manifestos. He spoke to the Grand Cleric. He spoke to Orsino (I think, but someone can correct me on that). He spoke to regular people. He spoke until his throat was hoarse, and then he realized that talking wasn't getting him anywhere, and he started doing something about it. Anders was not always obsessive, violent, and utterly driven towards this fate. He was pushed there, as far as I can see and tell, by the circumstances and lack of caring from others. If someone had taken a stand, if someone had done something to rectify the situation sooner, I believe that things would have turned out differently for him. And as I said before, the man was literally one with a Spirit of Justice, which probably made it completely impossible for him to be a bystander. Plus, I think many people forget that he was in a Circle, and had seen all those things first-hand. He had lived it. He knew what it was like to live scared of your future on a day-to-day basis, to just want to be free and walk where you wanted to and not have someone looking over your shoulder all the time. He wanted that for all mages. He wanted them to have that freedom, and trying to be peaceful wasn't getting him, or them, anywhere.

 

So Anders blew up a Chantry, killing several people in the building, and no doubt injuring others in the blast. His actions also started a war in which thousands have perished. Does this mean he should also be killed? I personally think the answer is no. If nothing else, he needs to witness first-hand the chaos and death he's caused. Killing him would just make him a martyr. His actions certainly aren't laudable, but at least he did something about the problem at hand, which no one else was doing. Even Hawke didn't really do anything to change the situation. Even if you play a Hawke who is pro-mage, Hawke, in the game, never really takes action for the side of the mages, except speak out and possibly help some of them escape. Hawke's own actions don't change anything. Was blowing up the Chantry a good thing then? Absolutely not. But he felt that if that is what it took to help mages, then that is what he needed to do.

 

It does not make sense, to me, to kill him. Killing Anders changes nothing, and also keeps him from seeing what happens as a result of his actions. Keeping him alive is a greater punishment than killing him in my opinion. I almost always (except in one playthrough) kept him with the group, or sent him away. Killing him wouldn't bring back anyone that had died, or stop what he started. The least he could do would be to stick around and see his actions through.

[riehull1]

The fall out for what he did went way beyond just Kirkwall, he is probably the cause of getting hundreds perhaps thousands of innocent mages killed and don't forget all the other non mages who are killed in the cross fire. By the time he blew the chantry up i don't think there was much of a human left either, in my own mind he had become as possessed as an abomination so the spirit of justice became a demon in the end. So I always kill him to make him pay for what he's done, but hey - after one play through of DA:I you could always go back and do up another back story in the keep with him living to see if it affects the story any differently! 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Why not send him too Riverine so he can learn to control himself better since they are the only ones too have actually studied the effects of spirit possession on a person.

Aside from the fact that we're not given that option in the game, you mean? There's distance, the possibility of problems arising before Anders arrives in Rivain, and the fact that that Circle is Annulled not too long afterwards for studying exactly this kind of thing (among other offenses) in a turn of events they can semi-reasonably blame and hate Anders for. Then there's the fact that we simply don't know how competent they really are with this sort of thing. We know that they practice it, and that they're not a smoking ruin. That's about it. We don't have the slightest idea if they'd have any advice other than "the technical term for a spirit that threatens to kill innocent people for calling it a demon is 'demon,' and demons need to be put down."

 

 

Your saying that Anders can't have the same room to change like Thane. That's a lot like your assuming he too far gone, when in the game Thane for example had a choice too kill people for the Hanar, then Zevran was in retrospect was a good kid that was forced in too the life, when he was sold to the crows at a young age. He changed his ways and began a new out look on life, their always a chance your able too see the errors of your ways. Their is a chance for Anders since their is still good inside him. He healed people for free and earned the respect of the residents of Darktown because of this he has people that protected him from harm. The angry mob that tries to kill after you met that store owner thinking your here too take him into the gallows. I think he too has value, as well, but I don't let my spite cloud my judgement either. Your letting vengeance take over your view point and that leads to bad outcomes in the long run. As you can, see, I very on the side of, which Hawke I play so some kill him and other ask him to join up with her or tell him to leave and never come back. I very much against the death penalty, as I have seen this abused too no end in Texas, mostly on black defendants more so than whites and more likely the poor folks also get the worst treatment with this outcome.

I really don't see much of a chance that Justice will change. Anders might repent of what he's done and in fact in the Rivalry path he does, but I don't think Justice will, and it is made clear in the Rivalry path that if the two disagree and Justice is fervent enough to try to force the issue, he can.

 

And even if Justice can be brought around, what will happen beforehand? If Justice sees the error of blowing people up first and asking questions later thirty years down the line (that's a fairly large "if", not least because of how unlikely the one man most of the world wants dead is to survive that long and the unknown effect Anders' Calling might have on Justice) is he going to be able to do enough good to make up for the number of lives he might take beforehand? None of this has anything to do with vengeance; in fact I agree with you that that's a crap reason to kill someone. This is all thinking ahead.

[KaiserShep]

Why not send him too Riverine so he can learn to control himself better since they are the only ones too have actually studied the effects of spirit possession on a person.

The reason he ran away from the Wardens was because they turned on him because of a Tempalr that was put their in order to wacth him for and somehow he found out about Justice and told the other Wardens and he was forced to flee from him. He thought he had found a home with the Wardens and friends and this was going to be killed by the same people he though were his friends.

 

This assumes that Hawke, or most people in general, would be privy to this kind of information. Growing up in Lothering doesn't really afford you a wealth of information like where to send or how to treat possessed mages.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This assumes that Hawke, or most people in general, would be privy to this kind of information. Growing up in Lothering doesn't really afford you a wealth of information like where to send or how to treat possessed mages.

Hawke was educated by a mage father (who was educated by the Circle before he left it) and a noblewoman mother. There's arguments against this plan, but I don't think this one works.

[Degs29]

I killed him because his actions willfully killed a bunch of innocents.  You don't use the bodies of innocents as collateral to achieve your aims.  Period.