369 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

I thought he deserved to die ... but I didn't kill him.

It wasn't Hawke's responsibility; it was Meredith's. She had no right to ask Hawke to kill a former friend. She was the Knight-Commander, and she shirked her duties.

And I wasn't about to let Sebastian blackmail me into killing Anders, either.  I understood his anguish, but he went too far when he threatened to raze Kirkwall to the ground (probably killing hundreds more innocent people in the process). What the heck, choir boy!

If there'd been the option, I would have knocked Sebastian out and had Aveline arrest him for daring to threaten my city.

Having said all that, if Meredith or Sebastian had had the guts to kill Anders themselves, I wouldn't have interfered. I would have let them have their justice. But they didn't. They were spineless. So screw them both. 

I proceeded to save the mages (and my sister Bethany), and then I told Anders to get lost before the final battle. 
 

 

This is actually an excellent point I hadn't even thought about because I was too pissed at Anders. Bioware probably felt their way was more dramatic. Power in the player's hands and all that.

[BradTorville]

It been a LONG time since I've play dragon age. I was so psych for the DA:keep So I've re-Bought DA:O ultimate edition and DA:2 and all of it's DLC so I can make my perfect "canon" and will be ready for DA:I! But then as I was approach the end of DA:2 I remember something I shouldn't have forgotten.........

 

 

Anders.... My best friend and vice versa, just killed a whole building of innocents people! I have both killed him and let him go. But as DA:I approach and the release of the Keep gets closer I'm torn part by what decision I should stand by. People would argue it was necessary and justified, But It's like Aveline said " Belief is no excuse. Sincerity does justify this, " Isabella and Anders had a party banter about justice....

 

Anders: There is justice in the world.

 

Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.

 

Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?

 

Anders: Yes.

 

Don't the people in the Chantry, who were just praying to the Maker deserved justice too?.......... Well that's the end of that. Could you guys help by making me make a final decision? 

 

Don't see how it's justice to kill innocent people who were never involved in the whole decision to treat mages as non-people worthy of humane treatment. It's a way overboard reaction, designed specifically to incite riot and mayhem. It served no other purpose. If injustices did exist, which I believe we can all agree did (tranquil of mages for ridiculous offences that had nothing to do with potential abominations, annulment of all mages, imprisonment without any rights whatsoever), there had to be a better way of addressing them short of forcing all mages and templars to go at each others' throats without restriction.

 

But that's essentially what Anders did. By destroying the chantry and all who were inside, he declared open war on the templars and the chantry and involved all surviving mages, whether they wanted to be a part of it or not. He deserved to die because allowing him to live only condoned his actions.

 

Sebastian, on the other hand, was struggling to put right what had been done to his family. He didn't decide to blow up an entire city just to kill those that had harmed him. He went after those who had wronged him, specifically. Saint? Hardly. Entitled? Yes. He felt privileged, entitled and robbed of his legacy and birthright. If you'd been in the same situation, I hardly think you'd be more humble about any of it.

 

Leliana had been manipulated so much during her life, she became convinced that it was the only way. That's what was refreshing in DAI. You have an opportunity to show her that things can be resolved differently. She begins to think of her own past actions and beliefs differently. She's a work in progress throughout the Dragon Age series.

[Qilune]

1. Did you side with the Templars?
 If yes, Kill him.
Reasons: Anders performed the ultimate betrayal and murdered hundreds, if not thousands of people as a result of the chantry's destruction; he even lied about it to you, and you performed your own part, however unknown... their charred blood is on your hands, too. He's allowed a spirit to possess him, the NUMBER ONE THING you don't do. His anger corrupted the good spirit and made it a demon. You're sick of it, of him. You need to stabbity-stabs this abomination before he and his Vengeance pal starts going off on someone else.
 
2. Did you side with the mages?
   a) Do you think the Chantry is wrong (in general or for any specific reason)?
   d) Are you an Idealist/full Diplomatic Hawke?
   c) Do you still need a *REAL* healer for the final boss?
   d) Did you romance him (and like it)?
If you answered yes to two or more of these questions, you let him live.
Reasons: That chantry/revered mother didn't do SQUAT! She ignored all the signs, even with people blatantly telling her Kirkwall was about to go down in flames. The mages were getting TRANQUIL'D just for attempting to stand up for themselves! For giving templars a wrong look! For attempting to fight back against RAPE! Anders got people thinking again--he got the mages to fight back and stand up for their rights for freedom! HELP THE POOR MAGES!!!!!!!!! AND (if romanced), I love him! I can't kill him! He's tortured and needs me! I CAN SAVE HIM!
 
3. Did you Romance Sebastian?
If Yes, you HAVE to kill Anders or Sebastian feels betrayed by him AND you. You might as well have lit the fire under the Revered Mother's butt yourself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes. Anders needs to die. He is literally a warmongering terrorist abomination. 

[DirkJake]

1. Did you side with the Templars?
 If yes, Kill him.
Reasons: Anders performed the ultimate betrayal and murdered hundreds, if not thousands of people as a result of the chantry's destruction; he even lied about it to you, and you performed your own part, however unknown... their charred blood is on your hands, too. He's allowed a spirit to possess him, the NUMBER ONE THING you don't do. His anger corrupted the good spirit and made it a demon. You're sick of it, of him. You need to stabbity-stabs this abomination before he and his Vengeance pal starts going off on someone else.
 
2. Did you side with the mages?
   a) Do you think the Chantry is wrong (in general or for any specific reason)?
   d) Are you an Idealist/full Diplomatic Hawke?
   c) Do you still need a *REAL* healer for the final boss?
   d) Did you romance him (and like it)?
If you answered yes to two or more of these questions, you let him live.
Reasons: That chantry/revered mother didn't do SQUAT! She ignored all the signs, even with people blatantly telling her Kirkwall was about to go down in flames. The mages were getting TRANQUIL'D just for attempting to stand up for themselves! For giving templars a wrong look! For attempting to fight back against RAPE! Anders got people thinking again--he got the mages to fight back and stand up for their rights for freedom! HELP THE POOR MAGES!!!!!!!!! AND (if romanced), I love him! I can't kill him! He's tortured and needs me! I CAN SAVE HIM!
 
3. Did you Romance Sebastian?
If Yes, you HAVE to kill Anders or Sebastian feels betrayed by him AND you. You might as well have lit the fire under the Revered Mother's butt yourself.

 

This is very close to my thought process. Only one out of eight playthroughs, I sided with Templars and killed him. In my canon playthrough, my male mage Hawke friendmanced him and knew nothing about healing. He saw the Chantry and the Templars as abusive and oppressive institutions and loved to see them both go up into heaven. Though he regretted that a lot of innocent people who had nothing to do with either of them got killed in the process, and that Anders did not tell him about his plan. 

 

And yes I think Sebastian romance ends if you don't kill Anders.

[Sah291]

I like that the game allowed you to choose, his state of mind in friendship and rivalry path is really very different, and I've both killed him and spared him in different play throughs. If you plan to side with the templars, I think it flows with the story better if you rival and kill him..or if you do spare him, it's implied he will kill himself shortly thereafter. It's very Lady MacBeth, and tragic.

I prefer to spare him on the mage side, though. Some have noted he seems less remorseful on the friendship path, but I really find it to be the opposite. The last convo you have with him pre-chantry explosion on the rivalry path, where he is talking about how good it feels for a spirit to fulfill it's purpose, is pretty disturbing, the way he is almost giddy over what he is about to do. You really get the sense he is unhinged and has lost all control of himself. On friendship, he is in control and it comes off as a more calculated decision he regrets having to make, but is only doing out of necessity and as a last resort.

I like Sebastian's ultimatum at the end. It adds more weight to the decision, especially if you choose to spare Anders, since you end up having to betray him in the process. I like how the whole situation plays out with karma coming back on both Anders and Seb...Anders struggles with Justice, and ends up being judged. Sebastian hires a mercenary to avenge his family, after Elthina begs him not to, and then potentially ends up being betrayed by the very person he hired to kill for him.

[Dieb]

No one deserves to die.

[springacres]

Honestly, I feel like there are good arguments on either side.  Killing him might serve to make him a martyr, but it also ensures that justice is done.  On the other hand, letting him live forces him to live with his crime and his guilt, ensuring that he will be around to see at least some of the destruction his act of terror has unleashed.

[electrifried]

I can't believe I romanced the bastard, wish I'd gone with Fenris instead. I think he deserves to die for killing so many innocent people and being a crazy fool in general;.

[Get Magna Carter]

Anders is out of control

he has committed an act of Mass Murder.

He regrets doing so but is unable to stop himself from doing so again

 

killing him is justifiable for the purposes of

a- preventing him from murdering again

b-  mercifully sparing him the torment of living with his guilt

[Tokorooo]

no he doesn't, you should not kill him

[Hurbster]

Hell, I sided with the Mages and still killed the stupid, murdering bastard.

[ottffsse]

Hell with my Hawkes iq I stab first and ask questions later.

Best of all play blood mage hawke on templar side and go into blood magic battles against your "fellow" blood mages to really show who's boss while those templars watch and don't say anything about it lol. Quote "blood magic? Where do you not see blood magic?" wasn't me lol. Of course at least that makes merideth s comment at the end of "I am wondering your part in all of this" somewhat mistakenly justified.

[Natureguy85]

Hell with my Hawkes iq I stab first and ask questions later.

Best of all play blood mage hawke on templar side and go into blood magic battles against your "fellow" blood mages to really show who's boss while those templars watch and don't say anything about it lol. Quote "blood magic? Where do you not see blood magic?" wasn't me lol. Of course at least that makes merideth s comment at the end of "I am wondering your part in all of this" somewhat mistakenly justified.

 

You gave me an idea for a neat game and story mechanic that would work in Dragon Age, though people would probably hate being restricted to a mage. Maybe not if they could choose race.

 

Anyway, they could push the series into showing how truly powerful Blood Magic is over all other forms and make it necessary for certain outcomes. Then have a "corruption" mechanic, similar to Warhammer 40k Dawn of War 2 Chaos Rising where using Dark Magic corrupts you. It's not quite like a normal morality system or Light vs Dark side from KotOR because you make it harder to lose corruption once gained. The story, particularly the ending, would hinge on how corrupt your character was over the course of the game.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anyway, they could push the series into showing how truly powerful Blood Magic is over all other forms and make it necessary for certain outcomes. Then have a "corruption" mechanic, similar to Warhammer 40k Dawn of War 2 Chaos Rising where using Dark Magic corrupts you. It's not quite like a normal morality system or Light vs Dark side from KotOR because you make it harder to lose corruption once gained. The story, particularly the ending, would hinge on how corrupt your character was over the course of the game.

Blood magic is not in and of itself corrupting, though. It doesn't actually drain the good from you the way dark magic does in other settings, notwithstanding that the Chantry teaches that it does. It's only corrupting in that it's a form of power, and in that it gives better results to worse people given that you can only get limited results by using your own blood. And that doesn't seem like quite enough to justify what you're suggesting.

[KaiserShep]

 c) Do you still need a *REAL* healer for the final boss?

 

All's I can say is thank goodness for being a rogue, because Bethany's immensely more fun in battle.

[Natureguy85]

Blood magic is not in and of itself corrupting, though. It doesn't actually drain the good from you the way dark magic does in other settings, notwithstanding that the Chantry teaches that it does. It's only corrupting in that it's a form of power, and in that it gives better results to worse people given that you can only get limited results by using your own blood. And that doesn't seem like quite enough to justify what you're suggesting.

 

It would be more about the character's mental state or connection to demonic powers than a physical corruption. It would make more sense with the Red Lyrium though.

[ShadowLordXII]

I don't consider myself a "fan" but a realist let me elaborate



Some people are like Anders is a warmongering terrorist, abomination nothing more etc... which is so wrong on so many levels. First lets not forget these events are happening on a dark age feudal society and people are property of the ruler whether you like it or not. If the Viscount was alive his word would have been law. So do not give me the "right to do crap". Bit** please, I'm a lawyer and none of the modern rules you apply to game in your mind is valid. You cannot find any analogy of what Anders did in past two centuries and should search for them in our own feudal and dark ages. If you do that you'll see there was nothing extra wrong with what Anders did, Hawke and Warden had many companions who had a much bigger murder rate.

Using neat little morality slogans like "do unto other" and "two wrongs don’t make a right." makes me laugh because actually two wrongs can never make a right because two wrongs can never equal each other. For the truly wronged, real satisfaction can only be found in one of two places, absolute forgiveness or pure vengeance. Anders is the most tormented mage we meet so far. Besides if we are talking about deserve here, the Chantry more than deserved what happened to it, maybe that particular chantry in kirkwall didn't but the chantry as an organization surely did. You hate and destroy someone like that they will surely explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

Again I have the repeat myself that in this, he was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who give them and the rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. It was their actions that gave the chance for those leaders to rise up. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

And for the record I'm not judging anyone. Everyone are entitled to their opinion and its their game. But if you make the decision to kill Anders and don't want to appear like a fanatic "HE WAS TERRORIST DIE DIE DIE" the correct expression is "I understood what he went through but I couldn't let him live". He is after all mere pixels but you are on an adult forum, don't forget that.

Oh and this is not targeted at you Riverdaleswhiteflash, I meant everyone.

 

How about the acknowledged fact that his actions were poorly timed and honestly did nothing to help his fellow mages in of themselves?

 

Anders was no hero. He was just a damaged man who lost all hope for peace and killed hundreds just to force out a war to satisfy his own self-righteousness. The war that he starts kills thousands upon thousands and after years of fighting, no one has won. Everyone lost and the reputation of mages is forever tainted because of Anders' inherently self-destructive plan.

 

Even if you argue that he's a justified terrorist, he's a terrible terrorist as he's actually defeating his very goal, "mage freedom". The public already fears magic due to Chantry indoctrination and by committing an act of violence based on magic, Anders is affirming those fears. So now that mages are forced into conflict with the templars, they'll also be facing a public that's much more heavily convinced of the evils of magic. Now Anders has forced his fellow mages into a conflict which they'll likely lose or at best, earn a pyrrhic victory that will make their overall situation worse.

 

Bravo.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It would be more about the character's mental state or connection to demonic powers than a physical corruption. It would make more sense with the Red Lyrium though.

It doesn't connect you with demonic powers to any degree that allows them to influence you, though. Not unless the use of this more negative aspect of magic causes you to become an abomination, and I was under the impression that that's a risk of all magic rather than being a risk of blood magic. And to say that the blood magic will put you in a mental state that forces bad actions and a bad ending is an oversimplification of the mental processes the blood mage's decisions are created by.

 

This mechanic really does make more sense with red lyrium.

[Commander Rpg]

But Why did you kill him? That's what I would like to hear

Because he's more dangerous as a living martyr (-witness, from the ancient Greek) than a dead one. It's better a single man dies rather than the destrution of people and nations.

Ander's coudln't be stopped in his run by containment.

[springacres]

It doesn't connect you with demonic powers to any degree that allows them to influence you, though. Not unless the use of this more negative aspect of magic causes you to become an abomination, and I was under the impression that that's a risk of all magic rather than being a risk of blood magic. And to say that the blood magic will put you in a mental state that forces bad actions and a bad ending is an oversimplification of the mental processes the blood mage's decisions are created by.

 

This mechanic really does make more sense with red lyrium.

It's a risk of all magic, but because of the perception that the only way to learn blood magic is to make a deal with a demon, it's seen as more of a risk of blood magic.  (Certainly my canon Warden thinks so.  "Blood mages, abominations, and necromancers must DIE!"  That's his attitude.)

 

I think what's more germane, however, is the fact that blood mages can gain control of someone else's mind without the person's consent.  I think that's probably the real reason they are so feared.

 

But you're right, based on what I know about red lyrium from DA2, the mechanic Natureguy85 mentioned does make more sense with red lyrium.

[ottffsse]

It's a risk of all magic, but because of the perception that the only way to learn blood magic is to make a deal with a demon, it's seen as more of a risk of blood magic. (Certainly my canon Warden thinks so. "Blood mages, abominations, and necromancers must DIE!" That's his attitude.)

I think what's more germane, however, is the fact that blood mages can gain control of someone else's mind without the person's consent. I think that's probably the real reason they are so feared.

But you're right, based on what I know about red lyrium from DA2, the mechanic Natureguy85 mentioned does make more sense with red lyrium.

Yes. Basically if some random blood mage realizes that any / more blood fuels more powerful spells he she soon crosses some lines of restraint and uses others to fuel those spells becoming a hazard to others at least from a lawful perspective.

Plus those abilities in the blood mage tree sound more evil cruel rather than benign. Think of graverobber sacrifice and blood slave. Those are powers where blood mage draws strength from the pain of others. And hemorrhage while a more general offensive ability still inflicts pain by boiling the blood of its victims. I am pretty sure any true lawful templars would consider such magic unnecessarily cruel. Than again if that templar is a mage hating bigot that might be what they deserve.

[ShadowLordXII]

No one deserves to die.

 

That's naive.

[ApocAlypsE007]

I fully support execution for terrorists, sadly my country doesn't do that, gives them education and then they are released, and cause more havoc. So yes, he did deserve to die. Moreover, he deserved a slow painful death hanging from his balls and a place in hell fighting monsterous spiders for all eternity.