369 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeniva]

I do think Anders went too far, but he also did force the rebellion into action. 

I think on my very first play-through I killed Anders (I didn't like him at all). 

After I played awekening I fell in love with anders. I've romanced him a few times in DA2 since then and I just can't bring myself to kill him after knowing his back story etc. I feel very very sorry for him and wish we could separate him and Justice (hello JOH spirits!)

We don't know what he's been through in the circles and what he's witnessed all his life. How he has been belittled for being a mage etc - it's all the chantrys doing for allowing such abuse towards the mages, I can't entirely blame him for his actions. 

[Qun00]

I won't condemn anyone for being merciful, but as far as deserving goes the answer would be yes.

Remember, Justice didn't corrupt Anders. It was Anders who corrupted Justice.

It's a risk of all magic, but because of the perception that the only way to learn blood magic is to make a deal with a demon, it's seen as more of a risk of blood magic.  (Certainly my canon Warden thinks so.  "Blood mages, abominations, and necromancers must DIE!"  That's his attitude.)
 
I think what's more germane, however, is the fact that blood mages can gain control of someone else's mind without the person's consent.  I think that's probably the real reason they are so feared.
 
But you're right, based on what I know about red lyrium from DA2, the mechanic Natureguy85 mentioned does make more sense with red lyrium.

The risk of normal magic is involuntary possession. A blood mage deliberately seeks to ally himself with a demon.

[Catche Jagger]

I won't condemn anyone for being merciful, but as far as deserving goes the answer would be yes.

Remember, Justice didn't corrupt Anders. It was Anders who corrupted Justice.

Well, this is a bit reductive, it was kind of a two-way street. Anders corrupted Justice and turned it into Vengeance, but Vengeance also pushed Anders to become more and more extreme.

[Cyrus Amell]

I would like to convey to total shock at the turn of events when Anders did this in my first game. When he asked me to take him to the Chantry and distract the Grand Cleric I thought to myself "Oh, he's a trickster. Probably going to urinate behind a tapestry or something." So I did not see this explosion coming... at all. I was not even aware such magic existed in the DA Universe. If a borderline mage abomination hobo can muster that kind of firepower how exactly have the mages of Tevinter refrained from blowing Seheron sky high!?!

 

As for why I spared him the first time, well, he was my party healer. That was it. I wanted to kill him, but I needed to save my sister in the Circle and I needed him just in case the encounters got any tougher. 

 

In a later playthrough, I just stuck with that first gut-instinct. I don't have the Exiled Prince DLC with Sebastian so I basically have a final say as none of the other party members put their foot down on the subject matter. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I would like to convey to total shock at the turn of events when Anders did this in my first game. When he asked me to take him to the Chantry and distract the Grand Cleric I thought to myself "Oh, he's a trickster. Probably going to urinate behind a tapestry or something." So I did not see this explosion coming... at all. I was not even aware such magic existed in the DA Universe. If a borderline mage abomination hobo can muster that kind of firepower how exactly have the mages of Tevinter refrained from blowing Seheron sky high!?!

Anders was both particularly bright and particularly powerful, and bonded to a particularly powerful spirit. The Tevinter can't necessarily find anyone to match that, especially since they apparently know better than to actually let spirits possess them, and even if they could it wouldn't mean much for the big picture of the war since as far as initial damage all Anders did was completely destroy one building and damage one city. The only reason that it had the impact that it did was because it was placed in the exact right place (or wrong place) at the exact right/wrong time in order to start a war.

[Boost32]

I do think Anders went too far, but he also did force the rebellion into action. 
I think on my very first play-through I killed Anders (I didn't like him at all). 
After I played awekening I fell in love with anders. I've romanced him a few times in DA2 since then and I just can't bring myself to kill him after knowing his back story etc. I feel very very sorry for him and wish we could separate him and Justice (hello JOH spirits!)
We don't know what he's been through in the circles and what he's witnessed all his life. How he has been belittled for being a mage etc - it's all the chantrys doing for allowing such abuse towards the mages, I can't entirely blame him for his actions.

We know what happened with him in the Circles, and no, he was never abused.
Go read WoT vol. 2 and you will see he was a spoiled brat who got away with a lot of things.

[Mikoto8472]

Ah an interesting question. One I haven't had to think about in awhile actually.

 

 

My answer is: Probably, but none of my Hawkes kill Anders.

 

In Thedas, one person killing another is very common. One person killing a lot of other people is also common. Granted my Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor all only fought in self defence but they made certain choices with a morality adjusted to Thedas rather than modern day Earth.

 

My female city elf Tabris recruited Sten, a Qunari warrior who killed an entire innocent family of farmers for no good reason. She recruited Zevran, an elf assassin who has undoubtably killed dozens of innocent people. And she recruited Oghren, a dwarven warrior who was almost exiled from his people for killing someone in a "first blood drawn" match. And that's just for starters. There are all kinds of questionable decisions and quests Tabris could undertake. In Awakening she recruited Velanna who has murdered whole caravans of innocent human traders. She even recruited Loghain and fed him to the Archdemon.

 

Heh as a player I haven't even gotten on to DA2 yet and my hands aren't clean as far as allowing companions to live and/or recruiting them to serve with character.

 

My female apostate Hawke recruited Isabela. She's a raider and pirate. Undoubtedly she's a criminal and has killed people during her career. Innocent seafaring merchants perhaps? Either way she's hardly a good person. She also recruited Merril who openly consorts with demons and uses blood magic. Yeah Anders is possessed by Justice/Vengeance but at least he's not a demon. 

 

And then there is Fenris and what he did to Hadriana. Granted she was a 'bad guy' and had done terrible things to him as well as just tried to fight us but she had been defeated and had surrendered. Parley and all that. She made a deal for her life and Fenris agreed-then proceeded to break his word and murder her. So now he's a killer too.

 

There's plenty more that I could say, especially if I added examples of mass murdering companions or choices in DAI too but I think I've made my point. 

 

So as the player, yes Anders did a terrible thing and killed some innocent people but I've forgiven and recruited companions that are just as bad or worse than he is. Is he supposed to be different because we watched him blow up the Chantry while everyone else's killings took place off-screen? I don't know, it just feels a bit hypocritical of me to go around condemning and killing Anders for that given I've spared mass murderers, pirates and assassins before.

 

As for Hawke I apply similar logic. She recruited Isabela and Fenris. Her own body count is impressively high and she's done her own questionable things throughout her stay in Kirkwall. It seems a bit hypocritical to kill Anders at that point. Plus she's a mage herself and sort of sympathizes a bit since there's no question that the mages are being horribly abused in the Circles-especially Kirkwall's. Seven years of Anders trying peacefully has gotten nowhere. Neither Elthina nor the Chantry are going to change peacefully.

 

So, my Hawke both spared Anders and took him with her to help atone for his crimes by helping defend the Circle. In my mundane Hawke playthroughs since I never brought Bethany to the Deep Roads she's currently trapped in the Circle that Meredith intends to annul. So she sides with the mages. Its a bit hypocritical of her to kill Anders, she has to save her sister. Meredith's call for annulment is illegal. Anders is the team's only competent healer so she also spares and takes him with her.

 

Both my Wardens and Hawkes believe in atonement. Loghain atoned with his death. Perhaps Anders doesn't need to die to atone for his crime.

[SamiraEA]

 I was not even aware such magic existed in the DA Universe. If a borderline mage abomination hobo can muster that kind of firepower how exactly have the mages of Tevinter refrained from blowing Seheron sky high!?!

 

 

It's not magic,it's gunpowder. That's what the drakestone (sulphur) and the ick from the sewers (saltpeter) were for.

 

Now, to blow a building like the Chantry sky-high, you could certainly argue that it was magically enhanced gunpowder.

 

I always wondered whether Anders had stumbled upon the recipe for gaatlok, personally.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It's not magic,it's gunpowder. That's what the drakestone (sulphur) and the ick from the sewers (saltpeter) were for.

 

Now, to blow a building like the Chantry sky-high, you could certainly argue that it was magically enhanced gunpowder.

 

I always wondered whether Anders had stumbled upon the recipe for gaatlok, personally.

Stumbled upon? No. If Anders had the resources to get his hands on it Orlais would have years ago. Personally reverse engineered on the basis of hints nobody else put together? I dunno, maybe. It's a bit contrived, since everyone else wants to do the same thing, but maybe.

 

As for the bomb being at least somewhat magical, there's no way it wasn't unless Varric is massively misrepresenting the way the rubble acted during the blast. I don't know exactly how a building that's being detonated by explosion rather than implosion* acts, but I'm sure it's not that way.

 

* Causing a building to implode by setting off small bombs on the support beams is the usual method of demolition using explosives because if you make the building itself explode the rubble will fly off everywhere, leading to the exact problems the bomb is stated in later material to have caused.

[RoseLawliet]

I have one issue with saying that many people were in the chantry when it exploded. We know from the very beginning of the game that we are experiencing a framed narrative. This is a story being told after the fact by Varric. Everything that we see or do is something that he felt was worthwhile to mention. As we learn in Inquisition, he's very angry at Anders for what he did. He had every reason to exaggerate the amount of people in the chantry, to make it seem like a place full of life, where everyone wanted to be, but instead we see something that is next to empty -- and not solely in that cutscene at the end. The fullest I ever saw the Kirkwall chantry was when Petrice tried to frame Hawke for Seamus' death.

 

World of Thedas volume 2 tries to clarify the consequences of what happened, but that's low (to me, personally). I have purchased it, but I wonder why such a thing was relegated to supplemental material. We see (an account of) the explosion. Once again, Varric has every reason to overstate how bad it was. I also doubt that Cassandra would have actually accepted his sanitized version (where we see no townspeople in the chantry, where we don't see the debris falling on Kirkwall at all) when there could very well be eye witness accounts... mainly I'm thinking from the person she recruited.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

World of Thedas volume 2 tries to clarify the consequences of what happened, but that's low (to me, personally). I have purchased it, but I wonder why such a thing was relegated to supplemental material. We see (an account of) the explosion. Once again, Varric has every reason to overstate how bad it was. I also doubt that Cassandra would have actually accepted his sanitized version (where we see no townspeople in the chantry, where we don't see the debris falling on Kirkwall at all) when there could very well be eye witness accounts... mainly I'm thinking from the person she recruited.

I imagine that they thought it would distract from the bossfight. And as for the in-game bit, why would Varric have to tell Cassandra how bad the damage was? She probably saw full well on the way in. Why would she need to badger Varric for details on how bad he remembers it to be? I think I remember reading that Varric had already expressed regret for how things turned out shortly into the Primeval Thaig, and by this point she really has been harsh enough.

 

But if I remember correctly there were already people on the forums filling in where the rubble likely went (ie down) even before WoT came out. If he didn't explicitly state that there was damage from large chunks of erstwhile-cathedral falling everywhere, it's not like he made a big secret of it.

[Natureguy85]

So as the player, yes Anders did a terrible thing and killed some innocent people but I've forgiven and recruited companions that are just as bad or worse than he is. Is he supposed to be different because we watched him blow up the Chantry while everyone else's killings took place off-screen? I don't know, it just feels a bit hypocritical of me to go around condemning and killing Anders for that given I've spared mass murderers, pirates and assassins before.

 

Not that this invalidates your point, but the big difference between those examples you mention from Anders is not merely that they are off screen, it's that they weren't around you, with the exception of Fenris. These things happened in their past, even if only very recently. Anders does his deed while your companion and even asks for your help in doing it while not telling you his actual plan. If you're trying to role play as much as you seem, that's a big deal.

[Illegitimus]

Ah an interesting question. One I haven't had to think about in awhile actually.

 

 

My answer is: Probably, but none of my Hawkes kill Anders.

 

In Thedas, one person killing another is very common. One person killing a lot of other people is also common. Granted my Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor all only fought in self defence but they made certain choices with a morality adjusted to Thedas rather than modern day Earth.

 

My female city elf Tabris recruited Sten, a Qunari warrior who killed an entire innocent family of farmers for no good reason. She recruited Zevran, an elf assassin who has undoubtably killed dozens of innocent people. And she recruited Oghren, a dwarven warrior who was almost exiled from his people for killing someone in a "first blood drawn" match. And that's just for starters. There are all kinds of questionable decisions and quests Tabris could undertake. In Awakening she recruited Velanna who has murdered whole caravans of innocent human traders. She even recruited Loghain and fed him to the Archdemon.

 

Heh as a player I haven't even gotten on to DA2 yet and my hands aren't clean as far as allowing companions to live and/or recruiting them to serve with character.

 

My female apostate Hawke recruited Isabela. She's a raider and pirate. Undoubtedly she's a criminal and has killed people during her career. Innocent seafaring merchants perhaps? Either way she's hardly a good person. She also recruited Merril who openly consorts with demons and uses blood magic. Yeah Anders is possessed by Justice/Vengeance but at least he's not a demon. 

 

And then there is Fenris and what he did to Hadriana. Granted she was a 'bad guy' and had done terrible things to him as well as just tried to fight us but she had been defeated and had surrendered. Parley and all that. She made a deal for her life and Fenris agreed-then proceeded to break his word and murder her. So now he's a killer too.

 

There's plenty more that I could say, especially if I added examples of mass murdering companions or choices in DAI too but I think I've made my point. 

 

So as the player, yes Anders did a terrible thing and killed some innocent people but I've forgiven and recruited companions that are just as bad or worse than he is. Is he supposed to be different because we watched him blow up the Chantry while everyone else's killings took place off-screen? I don't know, it just feels a bit hypocritical of me to go around condemning and killing Anders for that given I've spared mass murderers, pirates and assassins before.

 

As for Hawke I apply similar logic. She recruited Isabela and Fenris. Her own body count is impressively high and she's done her own questionable things throughout her stay in Kirkwall. It seems a bit hypocritical to kill Anders at that point. Plus she's a mage herself and sort of sympathizes a bit since there's no question that the mages are being horribly abused in the Circles-especially Kirkwall's. Seven years of Anders trying peacefully has gotten nowhere. Neither Elthina nor the Chantry are going to change peacefully.

 

So, my Hawke both spared Anders and took him with her to help atone for his crimes by helping defend the Circle. In my mundane Hawke playthroughs since I never brought Bethany to the Deep Roads she's currently trapped in the Circle that Meredith intends to annul. So she sides with the mages. Its a bit hypocritical of her to kill Anders, she has to save her sister. Meredith's call for annulment is illegal. Anders is the team's only competent healer so she also spares and takes him with her.

 

Both my Wardens and Hawkes believe in atonement. Loghain atoned with his death. Perhaps Anders doesn't need to die to atone for his crime.

 

I spare people like Sten because they seem like they can be actually useful.  Sparing Anders and letting him help me save the Circle can only make things worse by associating the Circle with him and what he did.  It's bad enough that he's incriminated me so that anything I do in that regard will be tainted.  

[MisterJB]

There is a great line in Legacy. Anders is saying how he might actually move in to Corypheus' prison since there are not Templars around and it basically goes like so:

 

"Anders: Clean the Taint off the floor, hang a few pictures. It might even be a step up from Darktown.

 

Hawke: I have never argued against you being in prison."

[GoldenGail3]

World of Thedas, Volume 2, page 258
 
"The rubble of the Chantry rained down like catapult shot over much of the city, collapsing buildings, blocking streets, and injuring hundreds of people. Half of Starkhaven's initiates and affirmed and a third of their garrison of Templars travelled to Kirkwall to search for survivors trapped under rubble and provide food and shelter to those left homeless by the explosion."
 
I'd say that earns him a knife to the spine.

Oh and you forgot, cannablim (he killed and ate Templars and Grey Wardens alike) when he first merged with Justice. Ugh! Makers breath! I hate Jusice! So yes, he deserve to die, the bastard.

[NeptunePurpleHeart]

the last time i played , i killed him because he killed innocents people and started a war

 

It was a hard choice but the right one to me

[Toxicity]

Yes he deserved to die, but personally I wasn't able to kill him in any of my PT's. He committed an act of terrorism because he felt mages deserve freedom and he thought he needed to do something to push for it, unfortunately he went about it the wrong way. I felt as though sparring Anders and having him help defend the mages only makes it worse for them. It associates Anders with the Circle mages when the Circle mages weren't involved with his plan. Sparring Anders and making him side with the Templars seems only just (I only did it in my pro-templar playthrough), but at the same time it isn't fair to leave the mages to face the consequences of Anders' actions alone. So..

 

- He killed many innocents.

- He made mages look 10x more dangerous than they already are.

- He caused a bloody war.

- He wanted to die immediately after blowing up the Chantry. If that doesn't say 'coward', then I don't know what does. 

 

He caused a war. But without that war, who is to say the Divine would have decided to push for peace summit for the sake of negotiating a peaceful compromise between the rebel mages and the templars.  

 

But obviously this is just my opinion and I could be wrong about some things I wrote.  

 

My only thoughts for when he blew up the Chantry were "why couldn't he do that when I was being destroyed time-and-time again by blood mages and qunari". 

[Illegitimus]

It's not about what Anders deserves.  I'm Hawke.  I'm not in the business of giving people what they deserve.  But I am in the business of keeping Kirkwall from being reduced to rubble, and sheltering Anders or letting him escape is not the best strategy to avoid having the Chantry level Kirkwall.  There is nothing that Anders can do at this point that won't make things worse.