369 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyValyria]

I chose to spare Anders in my game because it felt right for my Hawke. It's interesting because he probably does deserve to die and he maybe even wants to, but I like to think of my Hawke as flawed and slightly selfish. I don't think she would kill someone she's close to even for the greater good, especially after losing so many people already. 

[Willowhugger]

It doesn't matter what Anders needs. At this point what matters is preventing other people from dying. Even if Anders was saved from Justice the way Connor was saved from his demon (which would be risky, and possibly result in Merril's death, and which there isn't time for thanks to what he and Justice did) Sebastian is apparently going to kill a whole lot of people if Anders doesn't die. I agree with you on the major point: the question isn't whether he deserves to die, it's whether he needs to.

 

Eh, you shouldn't metagame the results of Anders and Sebastian.

Besides, I'm not sure if Sebastian is serious or just saying the most hateful thing he can after Hawke betrays him like this.

[Sifr]

I've always considered Anders just as much of a victim as anyone else due to his possession by Justice. I don't think if he'd taken Justice into himself, it would have radicalised him as much as he became over the course of DA2. This is not to say that Anders didn't commit those acts or didn't want to do those things, but Justice definitely gave him that extra push over the edge.

 

As for the Chantry bombing, it was timed so it would be in the middle of the night and there would be less "innocent" people hurt from the explosion. The only people harmed would be the Chantry-aligned individuals, who cannot be called "innocent" because they are responsible for upholding a system that continues the oppression of mages. We see that there were at least six people in there that we see in the Chantry, all of them priests and Templars, but no civilians.

 

That's not to say there wasn't any civilian casualities from the debris of the explosion and the subsequent riots, but it's hard to say Anders is a mass-murdering psychopath, when he chose to conduct the attack in a logical manner that was only intended to harm the Chantry and it's personnel. If Anders had done it in the middle of a sermon with the place packed with civilians, I would have had no problem executing him because that would have made him monster.

 

As it stands, I think Anders will have to live with the guilt of what he's done for a long time, but I don't think it's right to just condemn him when Justice is just as much responsible and to blame for the event. Personally, I think it was probably more Justice's fault and so separating them and destroying that infernal spirit would probably be enough justice for the victims of the war, while Anders should be sentenced to spend the rest of his life helping those he'd wronged.

[Sir DeLoria]

I wish I could've just left him to rot in the Deep Roads.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Eh, you shouldn't metagame the results of Anders and Sebastian.

Besides, I'm not sure if Sebastian is serious or just saying the most hateful thing he can after Hawke betrays him like this.

It's not metagaming to know that Anders could snap and kill more people, and even if I metagamed vis a vis Conner's demon I'd conclude that there's a reason Hawke doesn't have the option. (Namely, that it's impracticable.) As for Sebastian, his main personality flaw (apart from his indecisiveness) is that he can be vengeful. Maybe he doesn't mean what he's saying, but do you really want to take the chance?

[Willowhugger]

As for the Chantry bombing, it was timed so it would be in the middle of the night and there would be less "innocent" people hurt from the explosion. The only people harmed would be the Chantry-aligned individuals, who cannot be called "innocent" because they are responsible for upholding a system that continues the oppression of mages. We see that there were at least six people in there that we see in the Chantry, all of them priests and Templars, but no civilians.

 

 

Saying anyone associated with the Chantry is guilty is pretty damn weak logic as it's the largest religion in all of Thedas. You could use that sort of logic to target civilians in any sort of situation, really. The Chantry is a public building, arguably THE PUBLIC BUILDING in Kirkwall and we have no idea how many people are there holding service or praying for guidance.

 

It's kind of iffy too as the Chantry is usually the one who is also working for the Mages too, which is something many Pro-Mages miss. For all the oppression rhetoric they get, they also work to keep mages from being killed.

We get a first-hand look what Templars would do to mages without the Chantry minutes later.

[Black Jimmy]

I've never killed Anders, because I like to make sure I keep as many good aligned characters as possible.

Until I replayed both games in perpetration for DA:I where I decided that Anders being alive will only cause problems for the Mage Rebellion.

So I don't think he deserved to die, but I think he needed too.

Of course, I may just change my mind when it comes to importing the my World State.

[chance52]

As for the Chantry bombing, it was timed so it would be in the middle of the night and there would be less "innocent" people hurt from the explosion. The only people harmed would be the Chantry-aligned individuals, who cannot be called "innocent" because they are responsible for upholding a system that continues the oppression of mages. We see that there were at least six people in there that we see in the Chantry, all of them priests and Templars, but no civilians.

 

That's not to say there wasn't any civilian casualities from the debris of the explosion and the subsequent riots, but it's hard to say Anders is a mass-murdering psychopath, when he chose to conduct the attack in a logical manner that was only intended to harm the Chantry and it's personnel. If Anders had done it in the middle of a sermon with the place packed with civilians, I would have had no problem executing him because that would have made him monster.

 

You are making this up.  No where in the game are any of these claims supported. Anders has like 5 sentences after the bombing and none of them say he only meant to hurt Chantry personnel nor was it anywhere stated that it was the middle of the night. The sky being dark doesn't mean midnight you are clearly trying to make what happened in front of everyone's eyes who played the game into something different to suit your opinion.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Priests are civilians.

[Patchwork]

Meredith gleefully grasps her chance to annul the Circle ignoring the man right in front of her who actually committed the crime. Anders didn't just kill whoever was in the and around the Chantry he's also partially responsible for the death of every man, woman and child in the Circle. 

 

My Hawkes can't stop the annulment but they can make sure the man responsible for bringing it about is punished. Then she goes off to find and kill Meredith. 

[Lulupab]

You are making this up. No where in the game are any of these claims supported. Anders has like 5 sentences after the bombing and none of them say he only meant to hurt Chantry personnel nor was it anywhere stated that it was the middle of the night. The sky being dark doesn't mean midnight you are clearly trying to make what happened in front of everyone's eyes who played the game into something different to suit your opinion.

So that fact that its actually night and the explosion is ironically happening in a way that the least damage is done to other people is just a coincidence?

Also look at these. The only people implied to be in the chantry, The grand cleric and the Templars who were guarding her.





The game never implies there were other people in the chantry, even if you choose to condemn Anders Hawke says "killing priests does not help". If you say there were more people in the chantry its you who needs to provide proof because everything shown and implied in the game is against your statement.

[Ryzaki]

So...I'm guessing all the children in the gallows were spared from the annulment right?

 

Cause there's no FMV of young children mages in teh tower.

 

That means they're not there!

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So that fact that its actually night and the explosion is ironically happening in a way that the least damage is done to other people is just a coincidence?

Also look at these. The only people implied to be in the chantry, The grand cleric and the Templar who were guarding her.

 

*images snipped*

The game never implies there were other people in the chantry, even if you choose to condemn Anders Hawke says "killing priests does not help". If you say there were more people in the chantry its you who needs to provide proof because everything shown and implied in the game is against your statement.

Wasn't there stated to be an orphanage somewhere on the Chantry grounds during the game? (I'm honestly asking, because some people say there is and a lot of Anders fans angrily deny it. I couldn't tell you since I've only played Origins.)

[SmilesJA]

So...I'm guessing all the children in the gallows were spared from the annulment right?

 

Cause there's no FMV of young children mages in teh tower.

 

That means they're not there!

 

We don't know the specifics on the causalities inflicted by Anders bombing and Meredith's ROA, it's still up in the air.

[Ryzaki]

We don't know the specifics on the causalities inflicted by Anders bombing and Meredith's ROA, it's still up in the air.

 

...He obliterated the Chantry. Clearly anyone inside is dead.

 

The Right of Annulment is the right of the templars to kill all mages in a Circle of Magi used as a last resort to restore order.

 

Yeah there's not a little asterick that says children are excluded.

 

Indeed children mages are just as capable as becoming abominations as adult ones are. If the adults have to be killed to prevent the spread there's little reason the same wouldn't be true for children.

 

I do side with the templars but I'm fully aware they do some crappy things to keep order.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

I was tempted to quote the great orator Samuel L. Jackson.  Let's see...

 

Jeffrey Hawke, warrior, executed him, because he was afraid that Anders was on the slippery slope to becoming one of those mindless abominations.  Jeffrey didn't like killing a friend, but he viewed it the same was as someone in Resident Evil would view killing someone who had been bitten by a zombie.  A mercy killing.

 

Victoria Hawke, a mage, romanced him and although it might have been a little extreme, she was glad to see the prospect of mage freedom.  No executions here.

 

Anya Hawke, rogue, was also romancing him, but she viewed this as going too far.  It broke her heart, but she had to send him away from Kirkwall to wander on his own.

 

I guess I can see the logic in all possibilities.

[Lulupab]

Wasn't there stated to be an orphanage somewhere on the Chantry grounds during the game? (I'm honestly asking, because some people say there is and a lot of Anders fans angrily deny it. I couldn't tell you since I've only played Origins.)

I don't consider myself a "fan" but a realist let me elaborate



Some people are like Anders is a warmongering terrorist, abomination nothing more etc... which is so wrong on so many levels. First lets not forget these events are happening on a dark age feudal society and people are property of the ruler whether you like it or not. If the Viscount was alive his word would have been law. So do not give me the "right to do crap". Bit** please, I'm a lawyer and none of the modern rules you apply to game in your mind is valid. You cannot find any analogy of what Anders did in past two centuries and should search for them in our own feudal and dark ages. If you do that you'll see there was nothing extra wrong with what Anders did, Hawke and Warden had many companions who had a much bigger murder rate.

Using neat little morality slogans like "do unto other" and "two wrongs don’t make a right." makes me laugh because actually two wrongs can never make a right because two wrongs can never equal each other. For the truly wronged, real satisfaction can only be found in one of two places, absolute forgiveness or pure vengeance. Anders is the most tormented mage we meet so far. Besides if we are talking about deserve here, the Chantry more than deserved what happened to it, maybe that particular chantry in kirkwall didn't but the chantry as an organization surely did. You hate and destroy someone like that they will surely explode in your face, quite literally in Anders' case.

Again I have the repeat myself that in this, he was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people with blood on their hands who give them and the rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. It was their actions that gave the chance for those leaders to rise up. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around.

And for the record I'm not judging anyone. Everyone are entitled to their opinion and its their game. But if you make the decision to kill Anders and don't want to appear like a fanatic "HE WAS TERRORIST DIE DIE DIE" the correct expression is "I understood what he went through but I couldn't let him live". He is after all mere pixels but you are on an adult forum, don't forget that.

Oh and this is not targeted at you Riverdaleswhiteflash, I meant everyone.

[HTTP 404]

eye for an eye makes the world blind.

 

Anders deserved to be arrested for his crimes.  This thread proves that if we take laws into our own hands there will be chaos.  No one can agree on anything.  Anders should be arrested and let the new viscount preside over the trial.  Of course the chantry will be involved since it is a crime against their organization, so perhaps they could prosecute the case. 

 

Alas, we never had that option.  I tended to let him go in my playthroughs

[Lulupab]

eye for an eye makes the world blind.
 
Anders deserved to be arrested for his crimes.  This thread proves that if we take laws into our own hands there will be chaos.  No one can agree on anything.  Anders should be arrested and let the new viscount preside over the trial.  Of course the chantry will be involved since it is a crime against their organization, so perhaps they could prosecute the case. 
 
Alas, we never had that option.  I tended to let him go in my playthroughs

You know, the person who wrote the character is automatically the most familiar with it. Anders' writer Jennifer Hepler said that keeping Anders alive is indeed poetic Justice because he will forever remember the lives he took and he was even ready to die for that. So if there is any chance of "fixing" Anders its through this way. I'm hoping we get an answer in Inquisition.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And for the record I'm not judging anyone. Everyone are entitled to their opinion and its their game. But if you make the decision to kill Anders and don't want to appear like a fanatic "HE WAS TERRORIST DIE DIE DIE" the correct expression is "I understood what he went through but I couldn't let him live". He is after all mere pixels but you are on an adult forum, don't forget that.

Oh and this is not targeted at you Riverdaleswhiteflash, I meant everyone.

Well, considering that my answer to this (see the top of page 2) isn't inconsistent with that, I find that encouraging.

 

But seriously, was there an orphanage on the grounds of the Chantry, or not?

[Lulupab]

Well, considering that my answer to this (see the top of page 2) isn't inconsistent with that, I find that encouraging.

But seriously, was there an orphanage on the grounds of the Chantry, or not?

We don't actually see any child in the chantry throughout the game. And I don't remember any mention of orphanage in kirkwall, least of all it being near the chantry. I doubt there would be a orphanage in high town. It would most definitely be in low town.

[Uprising]

He had to do something big enough to make everyone choose a side and fight for it.
Anders was a good guy, his only wish was to improve the life of other mages. It is easily understable, that's why I was lenient.
He targeted the head of a system, not individuals.

I take the "he deserved to live" side.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

You know, the person who wrote the character is automatically the most familiar with it. Anders' writer Jennifer Hepler said that keeping Anders alive is indeed poetic Justice because he will forever remember the lives he took and he was even ready to die for that. So if there is any chance of "fixing" Anders its through this way. I'm hoping we get an answer in Inquisition.

I had the opposite reasoning: I figured he was about to start spiraling further into darkness.  Insanity, evil, and murder were in his future, I thought.

[thruaglassdarkly]

It been a LONG time since I've play dragon age. I was so psych for the DA:keep So I've re-Bought DA:O ultimate edition and DA:2 and all of it's DLC so I can make my perfect "canon" and will be ready for DA:I! But then as I was approach the end of DA:2 I remember something I shouldn't have forgotten.........

 

 

Anders.... My best friend and vice versa, just killed a whole building of innocents people! I have both killed him and let him go. But as DA:I approach and the release of the Keep gets closer I'm torn part by what decision I should stand by. People would argue it was necessary and justified, But It's like Aveline said " Belief is no excuse. Sincerity does justify this, " Isabella and Anders had a party banter about justice....

 

Anders: There is justice in the world.

 

Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.

 

Isabela: What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?

 

Anders: Yes.

 

Don't the people in the Chantry, who were just praying to the Maker deserved justice too?.......... Well that's the end of that. Could you guys help by making me make a final decision? 

 

Powerful moment, best in the game in my opinion, and a great question.  And like most great questions, there aren't easy answers.  I'll channel some Tolkien here to take a stab at your initial question.  Does Anders deserve to die for this act?  Absolutely.  Is it your responsibility to levy justice against him in that moment.  Well, that sort of depends on context.  Its easy to take a "moral" stance bereft of all the emotional baggage, but I try to have my character act as s/he would with all of that other stuff going on inside his/her head.  So...

 

On the playthrough where Anders was romanced, I have brought him along on the grounds of redeeming himself (not justice, but that's how I think that character would respond)

 

On playthroughs where Anders was a good friend and saved Carver/Bethany, I typically send him away (Anders saved a family member, but Hawk cant associate with a mass murderer)

 

Hawke the rogue killed him, and then went to save the mages (I'm not sure if it was justice, revenge, or just putting the poor guy out of his misery)

 

I never felt good about any of it, which to me is a sign of good storytelling.  Its a moment that should be difficult.

[SmilesJA]

Kirkwall was not a place where compromise can take place between mages. It's city full of fanatics on both sides, the Grand Cleric should've put her foot down when she had the chance, but she didn't. War was already on the horizon, Anders just gave it that extra boom. Now does Anders deserve to die? I really don't know, on one hand he should face consequences of his actions (something he's already willing to pay.) but he should witness the war and the high casualties to the mages. I understand Anders actions, Meredith is clearly insane, Orsino is secretly a blood mage (who helped Leandra's murderer!.) and the mages aren't doing themselves any favors by turning to blood magic. Anders tried to do the peaceful routes, underground organization, publishing manifestos and trying to argue with the Chantry about magic being made to serve man not overrule him. Unforntunately Meredith and the Templars continued to clamp down, and Anders (under the influence of Justice.) decided that it's time to have mages to defend themselves. If people aren't going to listen to reason, then it's time to fight at least according to him.

 

I personally would find a more peaceful route, but given the circumstances I don't think a compromise is going to work. Sometimes not all conflict is going to be resolved peacefully, sometimes violence is really the only option. Anders felt that way even though I feel he's no longer the Anders we know and love/hate (thanks Justice!). However as bad of a situation for the mages is, it's best for them to be free and fight. It may look bleak but I feel in time life for a mage will be much better than it was when they were subjected to the Chantry.