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Does Anders deserved to die? ( Need Help for Keep )


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#51
Sifr

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Saying anyone associated with the Chantry is guilty is pretty damn weak logic as it's the largest religion in all of Thedas. You could use that sort of logic to target civilians in any sort of situation, really. The Chantry is a public building, arguably THE PUBLIC BUILDING in Kirkwall and we have no idea how many people are there holding service or praying for guidance.

 

It's kind of iffy too as the Chantry is usually the one who is also working for the Mages too, which is something many Pro-Mages miss. For all the oppression rhetoric they get, they also work to keep mages from being killed.

We get a first-hand look what Templars would do to mages without the Chantry minutes later.

 

I should have clarified, when I said they are "guilty", I meant that this is how they appeared in Anders/Justice's eyes.

 

The Chantry is directly reponsible for setting up the system that oppresses mages, as well as continuing to propogate the dogmatic line that "Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule over him" to force mages to become worse than second class citizens, through no fault of their own other than a quirk of nature.

 

This is not to say that the Chantry is of course, an inherently oppressive and evil organisation, as we know that the Chantry does indeed do many good works to help the poor, sick and orphans. But for Anders/Justice, the injustice faced by the mages at the Templars hands (and by extension the Chantry) is something that he saw far more of, so he chose to punish them for it.

 

I'm not saying that he's right, but put yourself in his shoes and then imagine that you were sharing a body with a being who's sole berserk button is watching injustice. Could you honestly say you could live through seven years in Kirkwall and not end up going completely doolally by the end of it?

 

You are making this up.  No where in the game are any of these claims supported. Anders has like 5 sentences after the bombing and none of them say he only meant to hurt Chantry personnel nor was it anywhere stated that it was the middle of the night. The sky being dark doesn't mean midnight you are clearly trying to make what happened in front of everyone's eyes who played the game into something different to suit your opinion.

 

I didn't say midnight, I said the middle of the night. Based on repeated playthroughs of the game, as well as the above screenshots from Lulupab, it's clear that it was indeed night when the bombing took place and there were only a half-dozen people in the Chantry at the time.

 

Based upon those two facts, it's reasonable supposition that Anders chose the middle of the night to attack because he wasn't aiming to inflict major casualties on anyone but the half-dozen people in the Chantry at the time.

 

Furthermore, It makes far more sense to destroy one (mostly) empty Chantry as a symbolic gesture, than to destroy one with a bunch of innocent people inside, since a major civilian death toll only further to prove to the public that mages are dangerous and incite hatred against them, the very opposite of what Anders wants to happen.

 

Instead, if a rogue mage destroys a mostly empty building and Meredith responds by attempting to annul the Circle, who everyone knows had absolutely nothing to do with it, you only further prove to the public that mages are the victims ("the popular school of thought" according to Cullen) of the Templar's increasing brutality. Both Anders and his cause wins.


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#52
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I'm not saying that he's right, but put yourself in his shoes and then imagine that you were sharing a body with a being who's sole berserk button is watching injustice. Could you honestly say you could live through seven years in Kirkwall and not end up going completely doolally by the end of it?

Probably not, but that wouldn't mean other people don't need to be protected from me. And if I had the power of a mage, a major character, and an abomination, and had a frayed mind driving that power, would there really be any way to make me nondangerous besides killing me?



#53
Sifr

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Probably not, but that wouldn't mean other people don't need to be protected from me. And if I had the power of a mage, a major character, and an abomination, and had a frayed mind driving that power, would there really be any way to make me nondangerous besides killing me?

 

Perhaps attempting to seperate Justice from Anders, which could only be good for both of them?

 

We've seen that it's possible to neutralise an abomination with harming the host, by either killing the demon or forcing it to leave. In Asunder, we saw that Wynne was able to relinquish the Spirit of Faith from her to save Evangeline, while Connor can be saved by bullying the Demon into leaving him. This suggests that a Spirit can leave a possessed individual at any time, but they have to want to.

 

The problem is that Justice doesn't want to leave Anders. In the Friendship path, Anders mentions that Justice is becoming increasingly harder to control, while the Rivalry Path has him mention that he's been causing him to black out more often, both implying that Justice wants more control over Anders rather than less.



#54
SmilesJA

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Furthermore, It makes far more sense to destroy one (mostly) empty Chantry as a symbolic gesture, than to destroy one with a bunch of innocent people inside, since a major civilian death toll only further to prove to the public that mages are dangerous and incite hatred against them, the very opposite of what Anders wants to happen.

 

Instead, if a rogue mage destroys a mostly empty building and Meredith responds by attempting to annul the Circle, who everyone knows had absolutely nothing to do with it, you only further prove to the public that mages are the victims ("the popular school of thought" according to Cullen) of the Templar's increasing brutality. Both Anders and his cause wins.

 

To add to it, It makes sense to go after Elthina rather than Meredith. Elthina is basically the commander in chief one Meredith answers to. Also she's a high ranking member of the Chantry and she decides what happens to the mages and templars.



#55
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Perhaps attempting to seperate Justice from Anders, which could only be good for both of them?

 

We've seen that it's possible to neutralise an abomination with harming the host, by either killing the demon or forcing it to leave. In Asunder, we saw that Wynne was able to relinquish the Spirit of Faith from her to save Evangeline, while Connor can be saved by bullying the Demon into leaving him. This suggests that a Spirit can leave a possessed individual at any time, but they have to want to.

 

The problem is that Justice doesn't want to leave Anders. In the Friendship path, Anders mentions that Justice is becoming increasingly harder to control, while the Rivalry Path has him mention that he's been causing him to black out more often, both implying that Justice wants more control over Anders rather than less.

Separating the two is not an option in this case for precisely that reason. Unless the demon can be persuaded to leave, you need to confront it in the Fade. If that doesn't scare it into leaving, you need to kill it there. And even if Justice being dragged through the Veil by the Baroness didn't do anything to interfere with that ritual, there isn't time for it. Time really is of the essence due to what Anders/Justice did, and there's only one thing that both protects the innocents Anders might run into and doesn't take too long to run to the rescue of the mages. Besides, at that moment Hawke has one mage left in the party, and the only other mages he can draw on are the ones who are about to be slaughtered. While letting Anders help save them doesn't end with him going berserk and killing a whole bunch of them, to trust him not to is really stretching it from Hawke's POV.


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#56
Lulupab

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Perhaps attempting to seperate Justice from Anders, which could only be good for both of them?
 
We've seen that it's possible to neutralise an abomination with harming the host, by either killing the demon or forcing it to leave. In Asunder, we saw that Wynne was able to relinquish the Spirit of Faith from her to save Evangeline, while Connor can be saved by bullying the Demon into leaving him. This suggests that a Spirit can leave a possessed individual at any time, but they have to want to.
 
The problem is that Justice doesn't want to leave Anders. In the Friendship path, Anders mentions that Justice is becoming increasingly harder to control, while the Rivalry Path has him mention that he's been causing him to black out more often, both implying that Justice wants more control over Anders rather than less.


Actually Anders becomes almost fully stable in friendship route. As stated by the codex he only loses control when fighting Templars and for the most part has been able to control the spirit within.

Also Anders' case is very unique. He is not simply an abomination. He has fully and completely merged with a fade entity they can never be separated without one dying. Justice no longer exists in the fade and therefore cannot be killed in the fade to free Anders, he is only there when Anders is there. There are three known such merging. Wynne, Anders and The Baroness who did it with a demon.
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#57
Lulupab

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Separating the two is not an option in this case for precisely that reason. Unless the demon can be persuaded to leave, you need to confront it in the Fade. If that doesn't scare it into leaving, you need to kill it there. And even if Justice being dragged through the Veil by the Baroness didn't do anything to interfere with that ritual, there isn't time for it. Time really is of the essence due to what Anders/Justice did, and there's only one thing that both protects the innocents Anders might run into and doesn't take too long to run to the rescue of the mages. Besides, at that moment Hawke has one mage left in the party, and the only other mages he can draw on are the ones who are about to be slaughtered. While letting Anders help save them doesn't end with him going berserk and killing a whole bunch of them, to trust him not to is really stretching it from Hawke's POV.


He is quite calm and civil for someone who destroyed a building and its very very obvious he wont ever go berserk, at least in friendship route. Read above.

#58
WazzuMan

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Short answer, don't worry about it too much. If it doesn't work out the way you'd like or doesn't feel right, it's one small tweak in the Keep before starting a new game in Inquisition. If you want I more specific answer, I think the best way is to keep him alive and see what he and Sebastion get up to.

 

I never had a definitive answer to this. I don't decide until the moment happens and it can take me a minute or two to reach my decision. Always random though, I've executed him, spared him and brought him along on numerous occasions. Part of the problem is I do agree with him, the Chantry as it was was part of the problem and the only way to force change was to tear the old system down. That's the whole premise of Inquisition as I understand, the world's fallen apart (it's not just the mages and templars) and it's up to you as the Inquisitor to restore order. Reading about how Cullen feels about the events in Kirkwall gives me the impression that he understands the Templars failed and they need to redefine themselves, which sounds promising.

 

As for Anders himself, like I said I understand and agree with him on some level. My Warden burnt Amaranthine to the ground, she did what she thought was best to stop the darkspawn. Also I notice this keeps popping up but I don't consider Anders an Abomination anymore than I think Wynne is, at least not the type of monster demons turn people into. I consider both Anders and the spirit, Justice, to be friends of Hawke and the Warden who saw the injustice done unto mages and couldn't sit back and let it continue. Anders' hatred of Templars may have twisted their intentions and plans a bit but it's not hard to think either of them wouldn't have ended up in the same place if they hadn't merged.

 

Anyway, on my most recent playthrough, which I will be importing into Inquistion (maybe after a few tweaks in the Keep), I chose to send Anders away. Why? I thought the repercussions could be the most interesting, as I have Anders as an outcast living with what he's done and Sebastion on the warpath for his blood. After all, people assume that Seb will lead an army of Starkhaven on Kirkwall because that's what he threatened to do, but we don't know if Starkhaven will even listen to him. For all we know, we'll bump into him drinking his life away in a tavern like Alistair, or wandering the wilderness alone searching for his prey. I wanted as many characters alive as possible to deal with or learn about later.

 

And if these choices lead to negative consequences? Confession, when I first played Origins or DAII, I didn't even finish either of my first characters. It took me many "mistakes", many replays, a fair bit of research and consideration to figure out what my canon would be and even then I haven't figured everything out and the upcoming new game will likely put a number of past decisions into question again. I'll likely play Inquisition a half dozen times before I've gotten the storyline I'm only mostly satisfied with by the end and the next game in the series may change that again but that's what makes the whole thing worth replaying. I didn't even like Origins to begin with, especially after my first play through was an epic failure but now I'm playing it for the second time in so many weeks to see what kind of world I can create next.



#59
Lilaeth

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It's not metagaming to know that Anders could snap and kill more people, and even if I metagamed vis a vis Conner's demon I'd conclude that there's a reason Hawke doesn't have the option. (Namely, that it's impracticable.) As for Sebastian, his main personality flaw (apart from his indecisiveness) is that he can be vengeful. Maybe he doesn't mean what he's saying, but do you really want to take the chance?

 

Sebastian swears by Andraste that he'll come looking for revenge,  Given his devotion to Andraste and the Chantry, that makes me think he has no option (or intention) but to carry out his threat/vow. 



#60
Undead Han

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He had to do something big enough to make everyone choose a side and fight for it.
Anders was a good guy, his only wish was to improve the life of other mages. It is easily understable, that's why I was lenient.
He targeted the head of a system, not individuals.

I take the "he deserved to live" side.

 

Gavrilo Princip only meant to kill one man. But that one shot in 1914 ended up claiming the lives of 37 million people.

 

Ultimately it doesn't matter how many people Anders' killed in the actual bombing. His actions were directly responsible for the Mage-Templar War, and the blood of every man, woman, child, mage, or templar that died in the war is on his hands. Anders might be responsible for the deaths of thousands.



#61
Lulupab

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Gavrilo Princip only meant to kill one man. But that one shot in 1914 ended up claiming the lives of 37 million people.

Ultimately it doesn't matter how many people Anders' killed in the actual bombing. His actions were directly responsible for the Mage-Templar War, and the blood of every man, woman, child, mage, or templar that died in the war is on his hands. Anders might be responsible for the deaths of thousands.

I'm guessing you never read Asunder? What Anders did was merely "fuel" in comparison to fires that were started in that novel. Anders didn't start the war, he participated in it.
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#62
Undead Han

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I'm guessing you never read Asunder? What Anders did was merely "fuel" in comparison to fires that were started in that novel. Anders didn't start the war, he participated in it.

 

 

The conditions may have been ripe for war prior to Anders. But he lit the fire.

 

He is Thedas' Gavrilo Princip.



#63
Lulupab

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The conditions may have been ripe for war prior to Anders. But he lit the fire.

He is Thedas' Gavrilo Princip.

I think John Brown is a better example. After all these years we never could decide if he was a terrorist or a hero. Like him Anders tried to fix a oppressive system by murder.

"Anders added fuel to war, fire was started in Asunder" is better expression of Anders' actions.
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#64
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Sebastian swears by Andraste that he'll come looking for revenge,  Given his devotion to Andraste and the Chantry, that makes me think he has no option (or intention) but to carry out his threat/vow. 

Well, that simplifies things.

 

 

Actually Anders becomes almost fully stable in friendship route. As stated by the codex he only loses control when fighting Templars and for the most part has been able to control the spirit within.

Also Anders' case is very unique. He is not simply an abomination. He has fully and completely merged with a fade entity they can never be separated without one dying. Justice no longer exists in the fade and therefore cannot be killed in the fade to free Anders, he is only there when Anders is there. There are three known such merging. Wynne, Anders and The Baroness who did it with a demon.

Then the only options are to kill either kill Anders or trust him. Given the Chantry and that poor girl he tried to save from Ser Alrik, I think I know which one I'm picking.



#65
Lulupab

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hen the only options are to kill either kill Anders or trust him. Given the Chantry and that poor girl he tried to save from Ser Alrik, I think I know which one I'm picking.


He was fighting Templars in that scene with the girl which is what causes to lose control. Friendship Anders is quite calm and sane when he is not fighting Templars which is like most of the time.
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#66
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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He was fighting Templars in that scene with the girl which is what causes to lose control. Friendship Anders is quite calm and sane when he is not fighting Templars which is like most of the time.

That's not good enough. He still nearly killed an innocent while he was still coming down from the high he got killing Alrik.



#67
Lulupab

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That's not good enough. He still nearly killed an innocent while he was still coming down from the high he got killing Alrik.


Maybe, but he CAN hear and comprehend Hawke if he trusts you enough and he stops. Even in real life psychotic breaks if the person can respond to people they love and trust its a very good sign and is a promising way of showing the victim of break has high chance to get better.
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#68
Darkly Tranquil

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Sebastian swears by Andraste that he'll come looking for revenge,  Given his devotion to Andraste and the Chantry, that makes me think he has no option (or intention) but to carry out his threat/vow.


Sebastian also spends the entirety of DA2 vacillating about whether or not to seek vengeance against his parents killers, whether to go home and claim the crown of Starkhaven, whether to romance Hawke, and what to have for lunch; decisiveness is hardly his strong suit. Give him half an hour and he will be back to stewing in uncertainty. ;)
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#69
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Maybe, but he CAN hear and comprehend Hawke if he trusts you enough and he stops. Even in real life psychotic breaks if the person can respond to people they love and trust its a very good sign and is a promising way of showing the victim of break has high chance to get better.

And what happens before Anders recovers? For that matter, what happens after? I think you said in another thread that if you play Friendship with Anders, he's the one who decided to blow up the Chantry.



#70
Lulupab

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And what happens before Anders recovers? For that matter, what happens after? I think you said in another thread that if you play Friendship with Anders, he's the one who decided to blow up the Chantry.


The part about friendship Anders is indeed true and plans to overthrow the chanty and its leash on mages is not necessarily evil or signs of insanity. Its simply a cause. That is why generally speaking killing a friendship Anders is harder because you are killing a fully sane person who is willing die for his ideals not the rivalry counter part who seem like a possessed psychopath who is losing it.

#71
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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The part about friendship Anders is indeed true and plans to overthrow the chanty and its leash on mages is not necessarily evil or signs of insanity. Its simply a cause. That is why generally speaking killing a friendship Anders is harder because you are killing a fully sane person who is willing die for his ideals not the rivalry counter part who seem like a possessed psychopath who is losing it.

Not really. He still blew up the one person keeping Meredith from killing everyone in the Gallows, with the idea being that doing so would start a war. And I'm still afraid of what he might do next with that precedent in mind.



#72
WhatABoshtet

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I find this sort of question pretty hard to give an answer to, because like many have said, it depends on the type of person your Hawke is.

 

I personally rarely kill him. If you compare Anders from how he used to be to now, you can see how much of a difference Justice has had on Anders, personality wise. He more or less hints on several occasions that Justice is at fault for the "bad" things he does. Granted, it could be an excuse.

 

Either way, I do not see that it is justified to kill Anders. Violence to solve violence never works. If I really don't want to keep him with my Hawke, I tend to let him go. I think I have only killed him once during a really aggressive playthrough.



#73
Lulupab

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Not really. He still blew up the one person keeping Meredith from killing everyone in the Gallows, with the idea being that doing so would start a war. And I'm still afraid of what he might do next with that precedent in mind.


Its quite justified to kill him if you are afraid of what he is going to do, but that's doesn't mean he "deserves" to die. My point was he is not insane and will not go on a berserk.
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#74
Lulupab

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I find this sort of question pretty hard to give an answer to, because like many have said, it depends on the type of person your Hawke is.
 
I personally rarely kill him. If you compare Anders from how he used to be to now, you can see how much of a difference Justice has had on Anders, personality wise. He more or less hints on several occasions that Justice is at fault for the "bad" things he does. Granted, it could be an excuse.
 
Either way, I do not see that it is justified to kill Anders. Violence to solve violence never works. If I really don't want to keep him with my Hawke, I tend to let him go. I think I have only killed him once during a really aggressive playthrough.


Lol nice first post. I agree.

#75
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Its quite justified to kill him if you are afraid of what he is going to do, but that's doesn't mean he "deserves" to die. My point was he is not insane and will not go on a berserk.

My point from the start of this thread was that it isn't about what he deserves, but rather about what needs to happen.