369 réponses à ce sujet

[Ophir147]

I used to hate DA:2 Anders with a passion. I killed him every time because I hated what they did to one of my favorite characters.

 

Then I got a little older... a little wiser. I paid more attention to his story, did his rivalry path a few times.

 

I believe that in both cases (on the Friendship as well as a Rivalry path) he deserves death, for different reasons.

 

Friendship Anders is nuts. With Hawke there to encourage him to assimilate Vengeance further into himself, he is just too dangerous to allow to live.

 

Rivalry Anders has to die for his own good. He begs Hawke to kill him because he knows that he has lost control over himself, and can't stand being a puppet to Vengeance. Rivalry Anders is perhaps the only way he can be trusted to try to control himself anymore, but who would want to live with something like that on their conscience? He would never be able to find happiness after what he has done. Anders has had a terrible life, and he deserves some peace.

 

So there's my two cents. I actually kind of like DA2 Anders as a character now because of how tragic his story is.

 

It isn't even a partisan issue in my opinion; if you are truly pro-freedom then you wouldn't want an abomination wandering around believing himself to be some sort of knight errant, "freeing mages" by causing wanton destruction. If you are pro-order you would want much of the same.

 

Oddly enough the only way I could justify letting him live is if I were a hardline pro-templar type who wanted to humiliate him by forcing him to work with the templars to clean up his mess. Even I'm not that bitter.

[KatDancer]

Now: We all know that some people are doing some crazy shhh for greater cause, ....like setting themself on fire etc. etc. <-These people called terrorists.

 

 

 

http://www.vietnampix.com/fire1.htm

 

There are many words I would use to describe this man, but terrorist is not one of them.

[Minimooo]

I really struggled with this one - at the risk of upsetting the Ander's fanbase, I found him to be a nerve-grating individual for a significant portion of the game, even though I was pro-mage. But I played him as Hawke's friend 'who she loves to hate'. When he did what he did though, I did truly think he deserved to be executed for what he did. However, I am a sucker who will not kill off a major character out of interest of seeing how they turn up further down the line, so I sent him away and angrily told him to jog on when he appeared right before the end-game fight.

 

So yeah, it's all down to personal choice - did he deserve to die? For sure - he murdered innocents in an insane attempt to force the situation to a climax, because he was arrogant enough to believe that only HE could effectively bring a resolution. But again, I will not (initially) be importing a world state that he is dead in, out of pure curiosity of what happens to him.

 

I try to rationalise it as Hawke couldn't bring herself to kill him, thinking he'd finally gone mad. That, and despite their differences, he had stood by her.

 

Buuuutttt it didn't sit well that he'd betrayed her trust and tricked her into helping his murderous scheme 

[Lulupab]

I simply cannot repeat myself. If anyone wants to read the opposing idea of "Anders deserves to die" read my previous posts, actually read the whole thread.

[Minimooo]

I simply cannot repeat myself. If anyone wants to read the opposing idea of "Anders deserves to die" read my previous posts, actually read the whole thread.

 

I don't know if this was in response to my comment, but if it was: I was merely putting my two cents into the discussion for the author's benefit on where I stand on the issue. I'm aware of the opposing arguments, but I simply can't agree with many of them, unfortunately.  

[Lulupab]

I know. I respect the opinion because you think Anders must be killed, its different than proclaiming he must be put down regardless of anything. Opinions are not really what bothers me but comments that try to force it as a fact.

[Xilizhra]

It doesn't matter what Anders needs or deserves. At this point what matters is preventing other people from dying. Even if Anders was saved from Justice the way Connor was saved from his demon (which would be risky, and possibly result in Merril's death, and which there isn't time for thanks to what he and Justice did) Sebastian is apparently going to kill a whole lot of people if Anders doesn't die. I agree with you on the major point: the question isn't whether he deserves to die, it's whether he needs to.

And to prevent other people from dying right the hell now, we need as many people on our side as possible to fight the templars, and Anders is my best healer.

 

In any case, Sebastian's extremely easily swayed by his whims and I don't take his threat seriously at all. And Anders seems to substantially recover during the actual final battle.

[The Hierophant]

This time around i'm keeping him alive for the drama. If he appears in DAI, and is up to his same old tricks, i hope the Inq is able to Kalam Mekhar him in the face.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And to prevent other people from dying right the hell now, we need as many people on our side as possible to fight the templars, and Anders is my best healer.

 

In any case, Sebastian's extremely easily swayed by his whims and I don't take his threat seriously at all. And Anders seems to substantially recover during the actual final battle.

I'm afraid Anders might be a net loss. What happens if one of the other mages calls him a demon?

[The Hierophant]

 @Riverdaleswhiteflash - Considering what happened during his Act2 quest Anders will most likely attempt to kill them.

[Xilizhra]

I'm afraid Anders might be a net loss. What happens if one of the other mages calls him a demon?

I do the same thing that I did the last time. In any case, Anders and Justice are now working in tandem; I don't think there'd be the kind of tension in them that'd lead to Justice to seize control completely.

We can worry about separation after the battle. I do think it's a good idea, for Justice's sake as well as Anders; there seems to be a very good reason that spirits stay away from darkspawn taint.

[Ophir147]

I'm afraid Anders might be a net loss. What happens if one of the other mages calls him a demon?

 

It'll be a-ok, because Hawke will most definitely always be there to sass him back into lucidity 

[Chernaya]

That really depends on the way you look at it, and there are a lot of ways to look at it. To some people it was a long time coming response to years of abuse and tyranny, to others the deaths of innocents is never justified no matter the situation. Some people don't see the people involved as innocents, others do. I have characters who agreed and disagreed with his actions, but I find Anders a fascinating character so I prefer not killing him, myself. 

[General TSAR]

Is that even a question? Yes, but he needs to die in a way that doesn't make him a martyr, I convinced him to turn on the mages that way he won't be an inspiration to any radical mage.

 

he's blood never change and he's family is a apostage mages who was suffer of Temaplars

 

My Hawke doesn't give a flying rat's behind if he has mages in his family, he will do what is necessary.  

[Lulupab]

@Riverdaleswhiteflash - Considering what happened during his Act2 quest Anders will most likely attempt to kill them.

Anders was called demon and abomination hundreds of times and he did no such thing. If you dare to insult a creature of vengeance fully enraged then the consequence of that actions is all on you. Would you insult someone pointing a gun? I doubt it. Like Anders Justice loses himself to anger too and when he does he becomes a force of Vengeance, otherwise he is the Justice we know from Awakening, sharing body and soul with Anders. Our encounter in the fade with him proves this.

I do the same thing that I did the last time. In any case, Anders and Justice are now working in tandem; I don't think there'd be the kind of tension in them that'd lead to Justice to seize control completely.

We can worry about separation after the battle. I do think it's a good idea, for Justice's sake as well as Anders; there seems to be a very good reason that spirits stay away from darkspawn taint.

David Gaider has said that once Anders' calling gets close either Justice gets fully corrupted by the taint or he will fully cure the taint so Anders will not have to go on his calling. He never clarified which because previously he hinted Anders might appear in future games (if alive).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Anders was called demon and abomination hundreds of times and he did no such thing. If you dare to insult a creature of vengeance fully enraged then the consequence of that actions is all on you. Would you insult someone pointing a gun? I doubt it. Like Anders Justice loses himself to anger too and when he does he becomes a force of Vengeance, otherwise he is the Justice we know from Awakening, sharing body and soul with Anders. Our encounter in the fade with him proves this.

Okay, it seems to me you're trying to make this the girl's fault. It's not. She got scared and panicked after seeing quite possibly the scariest individual in the game in action, and she described what she saw as a demon. Anders then proceeded to justify her. I'm sorry, but I see no valid argument that she can be blamed for what can happen to her.

 

Seriously, as far as I know even Anders is more responsible than to try this argument.

 

Nor is any of this central to the point at hand. The point at hand is that a mage who wasn't familiar with the extenuating circumstances called Justice a demon while he was still high off of a combat situation, and he tried to kill that mage. Mages who aren't aware that Justice started out benevolent and a combat high are going to be present here. To spare Anders in order to use him in this fight is to use him in a situation that we know can drive him over the edge, counting on Hawke to be watching and to be fast enough to stop the situation. If we metagame, we know this isn't going to go wrong. In RP, we're gambling.

 

And getting back to the original point, where we're advising someone as to his keep decisions? Actually, things become less clear cut here. It depends on what OP wants. I would argue that until we have enough information to know Anders' actions for sure, all we can say is that he is a loose cannon. Whether Justice is fighting to control him, or whether the two are of one accord and he has free access to all of Anders' mental resources, Justice has proven himself to have the ruthlessness and cleverness to carry out a terror attack and (to some degree) successfully game the authorities reaction to it. That latter bit, to the best of my knowledge, makes him more effective than any recent real world terrorist. If you want something like that to spice up your gameworld and provide an interesting (probable) antagonist? More power to you. I'll probably do that at least once too. But if you are trying to make a well-ordered Thedas, I don't think Anders has any place in it. And to the best of my knowledge, he agrees.

[Beerfish]

He 'deserves' to be made tranquil.  Death is a poor substitute.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He 'deserves' to be made tranquil.  Death is a poor substitute.

You have a good case, but I'm pretty sure that case is moot under the circumstances.

[Jaison1986]

He 'deserves' to be made tranquil.  Death is a poor substitute.

 

I would say that sounds like the Loghain treatment.

[FiveThreeTen]

He deserves it but it doesn't really make sense for my main Sarcastic!Hawke who has been friend with him the whole game and didn't want to be involved in the conflict in the first place. So he will be alive in most of my worldstates.

[Farci Reprimer]

It is kinda hypocrite if you kill Anders for commiting mass murder.

Hawke slaughters people and animals many times more than there ever was people in that Chantry. So all Anders hating Hawkes should just stab themselves.

[Lulupab]

Okay, it seems to me you're trying to make this the girl's fault. It's not. She got scared and panicked after seeing quite possibly the scariest individual in the game in action, and she described what she saw as a demon. Anders then proceeded to justify her. I'm sorry, but I see no valid argument that she can be blamed for what can happen to her.

Seriously, as far as I know even Anders is more responsible than to try this argument.

Nor is any of this central to the point at hand. The point at hand is that a mage who wasn't familiar of the extenuating circumstances called Justice a demon while he was still high off of a combat situation, and he tried to kill that mage. Mages who aren't aware that Justice started out benevolent and a combat high are going to be present here. To spare Anders in order to use him in this fight is to use him in a situation that we know can drive him over the edge, counting on Hawke to be watching and to be fast enough to stop the situation. If we metagame, we know this isn't going to go wrong. In RP, we're gambling.

And getting back to the original point, where we're advising someone as to his keep decisions? Actually, things become less clear cut here. It depends on what OP wants. I would argue that until we have enough information to metagame, Anders is a loose cannon. Whether Justice is fighting to control him, or whether the two are of one accord and he has free access to all of Anders' mental resources, Justice has proven himself to have the ruthlessness and cleverness to carry out a terror attack and (to some degree) successfully game the authorities reaction to it. That latter bit, to the best of my knowledge, makes him more effective than any recent real world terrorist. If you want something like that to spice up your gameworld and provide an interesting (probable) antagonist? More power to you. I'll probably do that at least once too. But if you are trying to make a well-ordered Thedas, I don't think Anders has any place in it. And to the best of my knowledge, he agrees.

I see what you're saying and I was not blaming the girl but she was not entirely blameless.

Also lets not kid ourselves here, the Utopian Thedas you are talking about will never happen. There is constant threat from demons, Qunari and Darkspawn, even Tevinter. All of them are loose canons and quite big ones. In order to fight them Thedas has always used unorthodox methods such as grey wardens recruiting criminals. With that mindset I rather use Anders than to simply execute him. Anders wants to die because he thinks Justice is required of him because he just killed people that was not self defense. That is enough for me to consider not killing him, there are others to redeem himself such as helping you to protect the mages. Its justified to kill him if you don't trust this notion but claiming you killed him because he was insane is not really valid.

He 'deserves' to be made tranquil. Death is a poor substitute.

Practically Anders is immune to tranquility because his connection to the fade cannot be severed when he as a piece of fade inside him. Same applies to all merging with fade entities.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is kinda hypocrite if you kill Anders for commiting mass murder.

Hawke slaughters people and animals many times more than there ever was people in that Chantry. So all Anders hating Hawkes should just stab themselves.

A: You'd lose points if you made an argument of this type in a formal debate. It's called "ad hominem tu quoque."

B: To the best of my knowledge you can go through a game of DA2 without killing anything that didn't draw first.

 

I see what you're saying and I was not blaming the girl but she was not entirely blameless.

Also lets not kid ourselves here, the Utopian Thedas you are talking about will never happen. There is constant threat from demons, Qunari and Darkspawn, even Tevinter. All of them are loose canons and quite big ones. In order to fight them Thedas has always used unorthodox methods such as grey wardens recruiting criminals. With that mindset I rather use Anders than to simply execute him. Anders wants to die because he thinks Justice is required of him because he just killed people that was not self defense. That is enough for me to consider not killing him, there are others to redeem himself such as helping you to protect the mages. Its justified to kill him if you don't trust this notion but claiming you killed him because he was insane is not really valid.

 

The idiot who leaves his door unlocked in a bad neighborhood isn't entirely blameless either. Most people still put way more blame on the person who actually stole his things.

 

I know Thedas isn't a utopia. Neither is Earth, and neither ever will be. It's still possible to improve them, and I don't see gambling on the use of Anders as doing so. When using something as dangerous as Anders, you have to weigh the risks. That thing in Act II is not very reassuring as far as risk/reward goes in that weighing, since he seriously risked the reward.

 

Also, minor nitpick: as I've pointed out, I don't own DA2. So it follows that I haven't personally killed Anders. (Unless you count my jackass EM handing him over to Rylock at Vigil's Keep and killing Justice at Drake's Fall.)

[Geth Supremacy]

yes.  even though he wouldn't man up and fight and made you stab him in the back.....it was the only choice.  DO IT!

[Xilizhra]

Nor is any of this central to the point at hand. The point at hand is that a mage who wasn't familiar of the extenuating circumstances called Justice a demon while he was still high off of a combat situation, and he tried to kill that mage. Mages who aren't aware that Justice started out benevolent and a combat high are going to be present here. To spare Anders in order to use him in this fight is to use him in a situation that we know can drive him over the edge, counting on Hawke to be watching and to be fast enough to stop the situation. If we metagame, we know this isn't going to go wrong. In RP, we're gambling.

 

And getting back to the original point, where we're advising someone as to his keep decisions? Actually, things become less clear cut here. It depends on what OP wants. I would argue that until we have enough information to know Anders' actions for sure, all we can say is that he is a loose cannon. Whether Justice is fighting to control him, or whether the two are of one accord and he has free access to all of Anders' mental resources, Justice has proven himself to have the ruthlessness and cleverness to carry out a terror attack and (to some degree) successfully game the authorities reaction to it. That latter bit, to the best of my knowledge, makes him more effective than any recent real world terrorist. If you want something like that to spice up your gameworld and provide an interesting (probable) antagonist? More power to you. I'll probably do that at least once too. But if you are trying to make a well-ordered Thedas, I don't think Anders has any place in it. And to the best of my knowledge, he agrees.

I believe firmly that Anders will not necessarily be an antagonist, at least not if you friended him as Hawke. There's far from any reason to make him automatically such.