I believe firmly that Anders will not necessarily be an antagonist, at least not if you friended him as Hawke. There's far from any reason to make him automatically such.
I remember having the option to help out far shadier people than Anders/Justice in Origins, and doing so sometimes. Hence why I called him a "(probable) antagonist."
I remember having the option to help out far shadier people than Anders/Justice in Origins, and doing so sometimes. Hence why I called him a "(probable) antagonist."
Wait, how does the first lead into the second? The only person whom you can help out in Origins who becomes an antagonist in 2 is Sophia, and I suspect very few people did choose her over Avernus anyway.
Wait, how does the first lead into the second? The only person whom you can help out in Origins who becomes an antagonist in 2 is Sophia, and I suspect very few people did choose her over Avernus anyway.
I was talking about how people usually don't help out Sophia: she's probably an antagonist because you probably decide to shank her. Sort of like Branka or Zathrian.
I was talking about how people usually don't help out Sophia: she's probably an antagonist because you probably decide to shank her. Sort of like Branka or Zathrian.
I'd say that's rather different, as both Zathrian and Branka are bosses by default. Anders, however, is not only a companion, but a highly popular romance option; shoving him into the antagonist zone automatically would ignite a great deal of rage for no real benefit.
I'd say that's rather different, as both Zathrian and Branka are bosses by default. Anders, however, is not only a companion, but a highly popular romance option; shoving him into the antagonist zone automatically would ignite a great deal of rage for no real benefit.
They're not automatically antagonists. And unless Anders loses his mind farther than even I think he's likely to, neither is he. Though I think he's already coming close to being as questionable as Zathrian or Branka.
They're not automatically antagonists. And unless Anders loses his mind farther than even I think he's likely to, neither is he. Though I think he's already coming close to being as questionable as Zathrian or Branka.
Oh, that's what you meant by "probable." But I don't think that he'll be presented as being in the wrong quite that far, either.
Oh, that's what you meant by "probable." But I don't think that he'll be presented as being in the wrong quite that far, either.
Possibly not, but he's already close. You can defend his intent, but you can also defend Branka's.
Possibly not, but he's already close. You can defend his intent, but you can also defend Branka's.
Unless you are biased against mages what Anders did cannot be branded as 'evil' or 'wrong'. I'm not question the act itself but Anders himself.
Bias is when you come to your conclusions without or in spite of analyzing the evidence.
I'm not denying there were abuses, and I'm not denying they needed to be rectified. But unless Anders had tried involving the Grand Cleric, and then the Seekers, and then merely changing policy by the lesser method of sneaking into Meredith's bedroom with a knife while she slept, we can't say that what he did was necessary.
Possibly not, but he's already close. You can defend his intent, but you can also defend Branka's.
So which sympathetic characters do you foresee Anders menacing?
Bias is when you come to your conclusions without or in spite of analyzing the evidence.
I'm not denying there were abuses, and I'm not denying they needed to be rectified. But unless Anders had tried involving the Grand Cleric, and then the Seekers, and then merely changing policy by the lesser method of sneaking into Meredith's bedroom with a knife while she slept, we can't say that what he did was necessary.
The first was tried, the second is inaccessible, and the third is deeply outside both his skillset and pocketbook.
So which sympathetic characters do you foresee Anders menacing?
The first was tried, the second is inaccessible, and the third is deeply outside both his skillset and pocketbook.
Kind, merciful, non-rapist templars who just want to stop abominations forming in population centers. Or former templars of the sort that Cullen apparently was nice enough to give the Inquisitor a whole army of.
He could have gotten down on his knees for Isabella, and then "asked" her. (After throwing every healing spell he knew at her first.)
Kind, merciful, non-rapist templars who just want to stop abominations forming in population centers. Or former templars of the sort that Cullen apparently was nice enough to give the Inquisitor a whole army of.
The former, I will safely say, do not exist now that the Chantry and Order have split; the only templars now are ones who want to pursue war. As for the latter, Anders wasn't even aggressive against the templars in Best Served Cold; I'm quite sure he can hold his rage in check against people who aren't actually attacking his allies, who aren't even templars anymore.
Also, the former in your example are still enemy combatants, so if they did exist, I'd have to deal with them.
He could have gotten down on his knees for Isabella, and then "asked" her. (After throwing every healing spell he knew at her first.)
Isabela isn't an assassin, she's a duelist, and her style is quite flashy.
The former, I will safely say, do not exist now that the Chantry and Order have split; the only templars now are ones who want to pursue war. As for the latter, Anders wasn't even aggressive against the templars in Best Served Cold; I'm quite sure he can hold his rage in check against people who aren't actually attacking his allies, who aren't even templars anymore.
Also, the former in your example are still enemy combatants, so if they did exist, I'd have to deal with them.
Isabela isn't an assassin, she's a duelist, and her style is quite flashy.
There's reasons for a kind and merciful templar to try to force the mages back into the fold. The mages are trying to free themselves from outside oversight. Even a relatively benevolent templar can think that's a potential problem.
Unless Isabella has literally no ability to sneak, I think she could find some oppurtunity to kill Meredith. Even if she couldn't, there's no way Anders couldn't have compassed Meredith's death somehow. This is the guy with the patience to plan for several years, the brains to invent a bomb better than anything his peers have, ridiculous magical power due to being a merger of two Companion-level beings from Awakening, and the willingness to die for what he believes is right. The only thing stopping Anders/Justice from compassing Meredith's death and leaving the Circle in Cullen's relatively benevolent hands was Anders/Vengeance.
There's reasons for a kind and merciful templar to try to force the mages back into the fold. The mages are trying to free themselves from outside oversight. Even a relatively benevolent templar can think that's a potential problem.
Then they'll be my enemies too. You can't concern yourself with the personal benevolence of soldiers in an enemy army unless they surrender.
Unless Isabella has literally no ability to sneak, I think she could find some oppurtunity to kill Meredith. Even if she couldn't, there's no way Anders couldn't have compassed Meredith's death somehow. This is the guy with the patience to plan for several years, the brains to invent a bomb better than anything his peers have, ridiculous magical power due to being a merger of two Companion-level beings from Awakening, and the willingness to die for what he believes is right. The only thing stopping Anders/Justice from compassing Meredith's death and leaving the Circle in Cullen's relatively benevolent hands was Anders/Vengeance.
Aside from the fact that Meredith is a reclusive paranoiac who lives in a fortress, the issue isn't about Meredith's misuse of the system, but the injustice of the system itself. Getting Elthina to speak against what the system allows for would have been a victory, but failing that, Cullen would just be a change of guard who'd continue oppressing the mages in his own way. For this act to mean anything, the conflict has to be wider and more fundamental than procedural disputes in one Circle, and that's what it would be if Meredith was replaced by Cullen.
Then they'll be my enemies too. You can't concern yourself with the personal benevolence of soldiers in an enemy army unless they surrender.
Aside from the fact that Meredith is a reclusive paranoiac who lives in a fortress, the issue isn't about Meredith's misuse of the system, but the injustice of the system itself. Getting Elthina to speak against what the system allows for would have been a victory, but failing that, Cullen would just be a change of guard who'd continue oppressing the mages in his own way. For this act to mean anything, the conflict has to be wider and more fundamental than procedural disputes in one Circle, and that's what it would be if Meredith was replaced by Cullen.
Or unless Josephine can play on their sympathetic motives to co-opt them.
The problem is that there is a reason for the unjust system. One can easily argue that allowing the mages to police themselves could lead to injustices worse than those created by allowing Meredith to police the Templars. Really, the most just thing wouldn't have been to blow up Elthina, it would have been to find some way into Meredith's fortress and prove her paranoia justified. (Or maybe skip the infiltrating the castle thing and off her during a public appearance. I've never played DA2, and I still know she makes those.)
Or unless Josephine can play on their sympathetic motives to co-opt them.
If they leave the templars, fine. I doubt Anders would attack in such a case.
The problem is that there is a reason for the unjust system. One can easily argue that allowing the mages to police themselves could lead to injustices worse than those created by allowing Meredith to police the Templars. Really, the most just thing wouldn't have been to blow up Elthina, it would have been to find some way into Meredith's fortress and prove her paranoia justified. (Or maybe skip the infiltrating the castle thing and off her during a public appearance. I've never played DA2, and I still know she makes those.)
"Mages police themselves" isn't even really what's being pushed here, just "the templars have gone way too far and can't control the mages anymore." The end result on what policies will govern the mages isn't Anders' primary concern; I think he'd be willing to be flexible there to some extent. What matters is ending the templar regime. And since the Chantry refuses to do that, the templars can only be removed by force.
Also, Meredith only ever makes one public appearance, spontaneously, and Anders is likely not there at the time.
"Mages police themselves" isn't even really what's being pushed here, just "the templars have gone way too far and can't control the mages anymore." The end result on what policies will govern the mages isn't Anders' primary concern; I think he'd be willing to be flexible there to some extent. What matters is ending the templar regime. And since the Chantry refuses to do that, the templars can only be removed by force.
If that's not what Anders wants, what is? You're not telling me he's attempting to overthrow the templars without having any system he prefers to them?
If that's not what Anders wants, what is? You're not telling me he's attempting to overthrow the templars without having any system he prefers to them?
He never explicitly says what his preference is, which makes me think he'd be flexible on it.
He never explicitly says what his preference is, which makes me think he'd be flexible on it.
He jokes at one point during Awakening that the Tevinter system is better than the White system, which is from all we can tell false and kind of a worrying sentiment. At any rate, I just don't see all that much flexibility in what Anders has become thanks to his merger with Justice.
He jokes at one point during Awakening that the Tevinter system is better than the White system, which is from all we can tell false and kind of a worrying sentiment. At any rate, I just don't see all that much flexibility in what Anders has become thanks to his merger with Justice.
In and of itself, the Tevinter Circle (not necessarily governmental) system is better. The problem comes from all the slavery and such.
In and of itself, the Tevinter Circle (not necessarily governmental) system is better. The problem comes from all the slavery and such.
When last I looked, the two systems were the same thing, and the same small special interest group also controlled the religious power in the Imperium. In fact, I got the impression that that was to a large degree what was wrong there. Having a system where the magic, the religion, and the government are all controlled by one minority to which membership is controlled by circumstances of birth (ie ability to perform magic) is going to be a problem. Even Ferelden can't entirely escape the problems inherent to the idea of a ruling class determined by birth, and they aren't cursed with the same class also controlling their dominant religious group and their magical knowledge. (Though even then the worst sufferings of the elves are caused by the Chantry and the nobility both being human.)
When last I looked, the two systems were the same thing, and the same small special interest group also controlled the religious power in the Imperium. In fact, I got the impression that that was to a large degree what was wrong there. Having a system where the magic, the religion, and the government are all controlled by one minority to which membership is controlled by circumstances of birth is going to be a problem.
The system, I meant, of the templars working for the Circle, not having power over it.
But back to Anders... I strongly disagree that there's any real chance of his attacking any allies, certainly not enough to call it a dice roll. Unless it was a d100 or something.
I had Hawke kill Anders because...
- Hawke had spent a great deal of time and effort trying to keep peace between mages and templars, only to have Anders not only sabotage those efforts but trick Hawke into helping him do it.
- A lot of innocent people died as a result of Anders' actions, both directly and indirectly.
- Hawke felt partially responsible for it because Anders was his companion, he had trusted that Anders could control Justice/Vengeance, and because he had been tricked into aiding Anders in carrying out the attack. Killing Anders was an effort at righting his own wrongs. He had helped to unleash Anders upon Kirkwall. Now he had a duty to save Kirkwall (or lands beyond) from him.
- Anders had clearly lost control of himself and could no longer be counted on to keep the worst influences of Justice/Vengeance under wraps. He was in a downward spiral and had been for quite some time. Allowing him to live posed a danger to even more innocent lives.
- Pity. Anders may not have been an abomination exactly as Justice isn't a demon, but he is something akin to it. His identity was being swallowed up by the spirit of Justice/Vengeance and his own free will was diminished. It's almost like indoctrination from the Mass Effect series. Killing Anders at that point is partially an act of mercy.
Haha very good post ! But above all, If I can't forgive Anders, that's especially because he pretty much targeted innocent people for a political purpose. It wasn't a military target. He needed something bigger to declare war to the world. He wanted to break any compromise possible. That's pretty much terrorism and its purpose. He would have attacked the headquarter of the templars, military forces, okay. But no, he needed something which could upset the world, so he chose a specific target with a lot of innocent people inside.
Saying anyone associated with the Chantry is guilty is pretty damn weak logic as it's the largest religion in all of Thedas. You could use that sort of logic to target civilians in any sort of situation, really. The Chantry is a public building, arguably THE PUBLIC BUILDING in Kirkwall and we have no idea how many people are there holding service or praying for guidance.
It's kind of iffy too as the Chantry is usually the one who is also working for the Mages too, which is something many Pro-Mages miss. For all the oppression rhetoric they get, they also work to keep mages from being killed.
We get a first-hand look what Templars would do to mages without the Chantry minutes later.
Yep, pretty much. " There are no innocents among the priests, those folks ( noble and common people ) who come to pray in the chantry everyday, anyone associated with the chantry, and all. " 
A brother or a sister who genuily do theological studies about Andraste, or doing research on sacred relics is also the evil apparently.
This is so dumb, I can't even believe there are people who can claim such thing. I can even imagine how in the real world, we could be all monsters if we applied this ridiculous logic with pretty much everything.
Deserve to die?
That's a loaded question for such a self-loathing, self-destructive, tortured figure like Anders.
Did he need to die?
Maybe.
My Hawke killed him not because he was Anders' enemy but because he was his friend.
I personally thought, you deserve to die, and you need to die boy. I despised his action, but I understand why he did this. However, I would have respected him more if he didn't willingly murder innocents folks for a political purpose. It's different, this isn't just a damage collateral, which is unfortunate but could happen. Killing innocent people for political reasons and to cause reactions, nope. This isn't right and never will.
I told someone at school that I was arguing about whether blowing up churches was evil, and she just said "What is there to even... is this about Anders?"
I told someone at school that I was arguing about whether blowing up churches was evil, and she just said "What is there to even... is this about Anders?"
To clarify, I haven't been arguing over the morality of Anders' actions per se, but whether he deserves to die for them. Which I don't believe.
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